Jump to content
  • Welcome to AutoLanka

    :action-smiley-028: We found you speeding on AutoLanka Forums without any registration! If you want the best experience, please sign in. Safe driving! 

  • 0

Fit GP1 Oil Level Drops


vitz

Question

Experts

We got a GP1 (2012), 83000km clocked

- I noticed a drastic drop of engine oil level, I need to top up engine oil once to twice during the service interval. What is the problem?

I wanted to do a tuneup and replacement of plugs done from the Stafford assuming the problem would be solved. Since there are no service reservations available till 22nd Feb, I was compelled to take the vehicle to one of their dealer in Kurunegala. Before visiting the place today,  I got a confirmation on the availability of spark plugs with them, but after cleaning injectors and throttle body, they said that spark plugs are not available (typical irresponsible feed back from SL response) . We cleaned all 8 plugs and put them back.  Anyways, it allowed me to take a pic of the present status of the spark plugs (see below). One of the mechanic was saying that deposits on the plug could be due to sludge formation and this can be solved by cleaning the piston areas and changing piston rings. He was saying oil level drop is resulted by the sludge formation. I am not much sure about what he says?.

Inline image

 We bought this car unregistered in 2013 (15000km clocked) and serviced timely. It is a daily long distance runner (160 km). Hard to believe a sludge formation. 

For first services in during first one and half years we had to use 10w-30 oil since 0W-20 was not available. Then we reverted to 0w-20, could this be a reason?. Do you think shifting to 10W-30 would solve the problem?

Edited by vitz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Recommended Posts

  • 0

Hi Vitz

I also have a FIT GP1 2012 model and had the same issue. Engine oil level went down drastically. This happened when the ODO meter was in 47580.

When I was checking the spark plugs, I could see that oil was leaked to the spark plugs and burnt the oil. Took the car to a famous Honda garage in Polgolla Kandy, those guys confirmed that the root cause was the sludge formation. They disassembled the engine and showed me and there was sludge inside the engine and covered the pistons. The mechanic said that they have observed this issue in few Honda FIT GP1s.

They have cleaned the engine and assembled. Then the car was OK. Now the odometer is around 60000 did not see that issue again. Before happening this, I changed the engine oil 10000 km intervals. (It is a cheap synthetic oil) and that might be the reason . Usually I drive the car daily around 38 km. Still I use the same engine oil brand but change the oil in 5000 km intervals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
On 2/20/2017 at 4:34 PM, tbird said:

Hi Vitz

I also have a FIT GP1 2012 model and had the same issue. Engine oil level went down drastically. This happened when the ODO meter was in 47580.

When I was checking the spark plugs, I could see that oil was leaked to the spark plugs and burnt the oil. Took the car to a famous Honda garage in Polgolla Kandy, those guys confirmed that the root cause was the sludge formation. They disassembled the engine and showed me and there was sludge inside the engine and covered the pistons. The mechanic said that they have observed this issue in few Honda FIT GP1s.

They have cleaned the engine and assembled. Then the car was OK. Now the odometer is around 60000 did not see that issue again. Before happening this, I changed the engine oil 10000 km intervals. (It is a cheap synthetic oil) and that might be the reason . Usually I drive the car daily around 38 km. Still I use the same engine oil brand but change the oil in 5000 km intervals.

Hi TB

It looks like mine is also affected. What is the exact place you got it done. How about the cost and how long it took to do the job?

by the way, the engine components near the vicinity of oil filling opening show no signs of sludge build up. No stains in side the oil cap.....

Edited by vitz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
On 18 February 2017 at 10:58 PM, vitz said:

Experts

We got a GP1 (2012), 83000km clocked

- I noticed a drastic drop of engine oil level, I need to top up engine oil once to twice during the service interval. What is the problem?

I wanted to do a tuneup and replacement of plugs done from the Stafford assuming the problem would be solved. Since there are no service reservations available till 22nd Feb, I was compelled to take the vehicle to one of their dealer in Kurunegala. Before visiting the place today,  I got a confirmation on the availability of spark plugs with them, but after cleaning injectors and throttle body, they said that spark plugs are not available (typical irresponsible feed back from SL response) . We cleaned all 8 plugs and put them back.  Anyways, it allowed me to take a pic of the present status of the spark plugs (see below). One of the mechanic was saying that deposits on the plug could be due to sludge formation and this can be solved by cleaning the piston areas and changing piston rings. He was saying oil level drop is resulted by the sludge formation. I am not much sure about what he says?.

Inline image

 We bought this car unregistered in 2013 (15000km clocked) and serviced timely. It is a daily long distance runner (160 km). Hard to believe a sludge formation. 

For first services in during first one and half years we had to use 10w-30 oil since 0W-20 was not available. Then we reverted to 0w-20, could this be a reason?. Do you think shifting to 10W-30 would solve the problem?

Seems like you are having slightly bigger issues than sludge, get your engine checked for proper compression and see if the gaskets needs replacing as your oil must be on its way out through the cylinders. This could be a worn or neglected engine which has been sold to you without your knowledge with the mileage rolled back. Usually gasket and piston rings need to be checked at this point and maybe a few associated parts.

For a Honda engine to be in that state however is questionable as timely service is all that matters to keep them going smoothly. I know people with more than 300k on their odometers still going strong with their engines.

using 10W-30 oil is fine in this climate, but better to use the recommended oil now since you have the 0W-20 oil available. I have also heard mechanics from the Honda dealer cautioning users not to use Mobil fully synthetic oil with Honda engines due to sludge formation, the truth of which i nevergot to find out, but I have been using Castrol GTX 10W-30 in my Civic and Toyota 0W-20 in my Aqua and my engines seem happy with them.

good luck

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
16 hours ago, rukmaldk said:

Seems like you are having slightly bigger issues than sludge, get your engine checked for proper compression and see if the gaskets needs replacing as your oil must be on its way out through the cylinders. This could be a worn or neglected engine which has been sold to you without your knowledge with the mileage rolled back. Usually gasket and piston rings need to be checked at this point and maybe a few associated parts.

For a Honda engine to be in that state however is questionable as timely service is all that matters to keep them going smoothly. I know people with more than 300k on their odometers still going strong with their engines.

using 10W-30 oil is fine in this climate, but better to use the recommended oil now since you have the 0W-20 oil available. I have also heard mechanics from the Honda dealer cautioning users not to use Mobil fully synthetic oil with Honda engines due to sludge formation, the truth of which i nevergot to find out, but I have been using Castrol GTX 10W-30 in my Civic and Toyota 0W-20 in my Aqua and my engines seem happy with them.

good luck

 

Thanks. 

I handed over the vehicle for engine clean up. The guys at the garage have done couple of cleaning ups and confident it will work. Quite a hard job as the engine has to be removed and dismantle.

I"ll report the progress  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
2 hours ago, gayanath said:

I saw several opinions that, sludge will be the root course for deposits on spark plugs. 

Can anybody explain technically how could it happens ??

Sludge is not necessarily the root cause for spark plug deposits but the deposits are influenced by oil burning. Oil burning is due to oil leaking into the cylinders either through piston rings and/or through valve guides in normal operation. Premature failure of both the rings (getting stuck or worn out) and guides can be due to shortcomings in lubrication and formation of sludge.

Edited by Rumesh88
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
5 hours ago, Rumesh88 said:

Sludge is not necessarily the root cause for spark plug deposits but the deposits are influenced by oil burning. Oil burning is due to oil leaking into the cylinders either through piston rings and/or through valve guides in normal operation. Premature failure of both the rings (getting stuck or worn out) and guides can be due to shortcomings in lubrication and formation of sludge.

Yes , As Rumesh88 said, sludge should not be always suspected. The sludge is sometimes oil brand specific , engine model specific , owner (behavior )  specific  problem. It is not a mineral or synthetic problem too. Some manufactures do not recommend synthetic on their engines because of varying unknown chemical additions,

About 10 years back Mobil 1( A synthetic ) caused sludge problems on  engines of Toyata, Audi & VW in their certain models. After million attacks I hope Mobil 1 anatomy had been changed and car manufacturers also modified their designs. The caused was the excessive temperature on VVT head and non-sustainability of  Mobil 1 to such temperatures. 

Around 10,000 km intervals between oil changes are not considered as a safe margin for a country like Sri Lanka where the grade of fuel  is not reliable, not up to the standard and also the environmental factors which lead to premature oil deterioration.

5000 km (or less) and 6 months non distance dependable time are normally accepted for engine oil changes whether it is Synthetic or mineral.

As per Vitz cases, he always a victim of Sludge. Around 2009 he had a sludge problem on his Vios. Now this time on Honda Fit. It is worth to refer here.

I think it is wise to monitor & pay  your attention on engines and lower the oil change intervals, use of genuine oil filters and Air filters etc.

Dismantling of the engine may clear all the problems and if improperly handles (the repair ) it could a cause of series of new problems,

 

 

Edited by Rohnd
spelling
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
On 2/24/2017 at 4:06 PM, Rohnd said:

Yes , As Rumesh88 said, sludge should not be always suspected. The sludge is sometimes oil brand specific , engine model specific , owner (behavior )  specific  problem. It is not a mineral or synthetic problem too. Some manufactures do not recommend synthetic on their engines because of varying unknown chemical additions,

About 10 years back Mobil 1( A synthetic ) caused sludge problems on  engines of Toyata, Audi & VW in their certain models. After million attacks I hope Mobil 1 anatomy had been changed and car manufacturers also modified their designs. The caused was the excessive temperature on VVT head and non-sustainability of  Mobil 1 to such temperatures. 

Around 10,000 km intervals between oil changes are not considered as a safe margin for a country like Sri Lanka where the grade of fuel  is not reliable, not up to the standard and also the environmental factors which lead to premature oil deterioration.

5000 km (or less) and 6 months non distance dependable time are normally accepted for engine oil changes whether it is Synthetic or mineral.

As per Vitz cases, he always a victim of Sludge. Around 2009 he had a sludge problem on his Vios. Now this time on Honda Fit. It is worth to refer here.

I think it is wise to monitor & pay  your attention on engines and lower the oil change intervals, use of genuine oil filters and Air filters etc.

Dismantling of the engine may clear all the problems and if improperly handles (the repair ) it could a cause of series of new problems,

 

 

Rohnd,

"As per Vitz cases, he always a victim of Sludge. Around 2009 he had a sludge problem on his Vios. Now this time on Honda Fit. It is worth to refer here".

In 2009, I faced this problem in the unregistered car I purchased just after I purchase it. Pls go through the entire thread, Though, there were some signs of sludge formation, I was able to drive the car another 40000 km till I sold it without any problems. I adhered of changing engine oil in every 5000 km.

After my Vios, I am presently using a Ssangyong korando, now (55000km) no issues. Nevertheless, we had a Viva, which was run 30000 km without any problems.

So I would not personalize this issue.....

 

Edited by vitz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
On 2/18/2017 at 10:58 PM, vitz said:

Experts

We got a GP1 (2012), 83000km clocked

- I noticed a drastic drop of engine oil level, I need to top up engine oil once to twice during the service interval. What is the problem?

I wanted to do a tuneup and replacement of plugs done from the Stafford assuming the problem would be solved. Since there are no service reservations available till 22nd Feb, I was compelled to take the vehicle to one of their dealer in Kurunegala. Before visiting the place today,  I got a confirmation on the availability of spark plugs with them, but after cleaning injectors and throttle body, they said that spark plugs are not available (typical irresponsible feed back from SL response) . We cleaned all 8 plugs and put them back.  Anyways, it allowed me to take a pic of the present status of the spark plugs (see below). One of the mechanic was saying that deposits on the plug could be due to sludge formation and this can be solved by cleaning the piston areas and changing piston rings. He was saying oil level drop is resulted by the sludge formation. I am not much sure about what he says?.

Inline image

 We bought this car unregistered in 2013 (15000km clocked) and serviced timely. It is a daily long distance runner (160 km). Hard to believe a sludge formation. 

For first services in during first one and half years we had to use 10w-30 oil since 0W-20 was not available. Then we reverted to 0w-20, could this be a reason?. Do you think shifting to 10W-30 would solve the problem?

Guys, Problem identified and rectified.

After  dismantle the engine we found that there is no bit of sludge deposited. Metal looked glistering shine. I"ll upload a photo later.

However, the problem was stucked oil rings and compression rings "mechanics language - oil rings badalaa" . This has happened by oil residues. It seems these oil residues have glued rings on to the piston while not allowing it to expand and seal the clearance between the piston and the body. So that the oil sprayed to the bottom area of the piston has gone to the combustion chamber and burnt. These kind of engines, we cannot observe or detect burning oil except a reduction in the oil level.

According to the mechanic, rings were not needed to be replaced. Just cleaning was sufficient.

Now the vehicle is ready to go. Did couple of test runs and everything is okay.

Got the repair done at famous honda Garage in Polgolla.  Very cooperative, nice people. 

Still I am wondering what has caused this problem. One reason would be lengthy oil changing interval (see above what I have posted), though I used Honda Synthetic Oil (9000 km changing interval).

I was told by the mechanic that this is often a problem in GP1. Still this is a mystery for me.......

 

Edited by vitz
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Extended oil change intervals for JDM models may not suit the local climate. Get the engine accustomed to semi synthetic  0W20 or 10W30 and do more regular changes, that way there wont be any chances of things depositing for long and it will cost roughly the same. Keep in mind that oil deteriorates more rapidly in our hot and dusty climate.

that being said, most baases in SL recommend heavier and heavier oild as mileage increases, this may be necessary in Indian engines where the quality of engine components is low and therefore wears out in 100,000kms, but with Hondas, and Toyotas, it is best to stick to the manufacturer recommended viscosity as these engines are well engineered to be trouble free and low maintenance

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
16 hours ago, vitz said:

Guys, Problem identified and rectified.

After  dismantle the engine we found that there is no bit of sludge deposited. Metal looked glistering shine. I"ll upload a photo later.

However, the problem was stucked oil rings and compression rings "mechanics language - oil rings badalaa" . This has happened by oil residues. It seems these oil residues have glued rings on to the piston while not allowing it to expand and seal the clearance between the piston and the body. So that the oil sprayed to the bottom area of the piston has gone to the combustion chamber and burnt. These kind of engines, we cannot observe or detect burning oil except a reduction in the oil level.

According to the mechanic, rings were not needed to be replaced. Just cleaning was sufficient.

Now the vehicle is ready to go. Did couple of test runs and everything is okay.

Got the repair done at famous honda Garage in Polgolla.  Very cooperative, nice people. 

Still I am wondering what has caused this problem. One reason would be lengthy oil changing interval (see above what I have posted), though I used Honda Synthetic Oil (9000 km changing interval).

I was told by the mechanic that this is often a problem in GP1. Still this is a mystery for me.......

 

Though the problem identified and fixed, I feels that, still the root cause is unclear. Extended oil drain interval is a one reason but not the sole reason.

Are you sure your mechanic has checked for all other possibilities.

my concerns,

1. 83,000 km is not such a big value (hope the millage not tampered since you are the first owner) 

2. No bit of sludge visible

3. tbird's issue is different - its clearly sludge as he confirms. 

4. you are a long runner

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
4 hours ago, gayanath said:

Though the problem identified and fixed, I feels that, still the root cause is unclear. Extended oil drain interval is a one reason but not the sole reason.

Are you sure your mechanic has checked for all other possibilities.

my concerns,

1. 83,000 km is not such a big value (hope the millage not tampered since you are the first owner) 

2. No bit of sludge visible

3. tbird's issue is different - its clearly sludge as he confirms. 

4. you are a long runner

Some of the probable reasons

1. Using ow-30 and shifting to ow-20

2. Shifting from synthetic  to mineral : As far as I can remember symptoms started at this stage. may be mere co-incidence.

3. Extended driving on dusty roads - in frequent replacement of air filter (did that once in 10000 km)

I also think that prolonged changing intervals could have produced sludge. I purchased this vehicle unregistered. I checked the mileage by logging to the JVIC site and it was okay. This fault is nothing to do with the mileage as components of engine illustrated.

fit.jpg

Edited by vitz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

One thing we overlooked here is the proper operation of the PCV valve. I guess it is time you get the part inspected and replaced if necessary. Failure in PCV could result in faster breakdown of engine oil. The gunk on the rings may have accumulated when the car was left idle over some period before it was shipped here.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
8 minutes ago, vitz said:

Some of the probable reasons

1. Using ow-30 and shifting to ow-20

Highly unlikely - BTW oil quality could be a reason but hope you have used reputed brands

8 minutes ago, vitz said:

2. Shifting from synthetic  to mineral : As far as I can remember symptoms started at this stage. may be mere co-incidence.

Technically highly unlikely because mineral oils are extensively used in SL as well as Asian/tropical region  

8 minutes ago, vitz said:

3. Extended driving on dusty roads - in frequent replacement of air filter (did that once in 10000 km)

10,000 km replacement interval for air filter is not and issue even in desserts  if frequent cleaning will be taking place. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
2 hours ago, Rumesh88 said:

One thing we overlooked here is the proper operation of the PCV valve. I guess it is time you get the part inspected and replaced if necessary. Failure in PCV could result in faster breakdown of engine oil.

Can't this be detected by the scanner?. Scanning was done and reprogrammed during the repair

The gunk on the rings may have accumulated when the car was left idle over some period before it was shipped here.

Then problem would have appeared long ago!!! However, we left the vehicle idle in 2015 for three months, as we were in overseas. As far as I can remember we did not change oil before we left. This could have partly contributed. 

 

Edited by vitz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
17 hours ago, Rumesh88 said:

One thing we overlooked here is the proper operation of the PCV valve. I guess it is time you get the part inspected and replaced if necessary. Failure in PCV could result in faster breakdown of engine oil. The gunk on the rings may have accumulated when the car was left idle over some period before it was shipped here.

Hi Rumesh,

I thought of checking my PCV valve myself. Is this a DIY kind of a job? Engine is 2SZ. If I was to clean it what cleaner is good? carb cleaner?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
49 minutes ago, hrm said:

Hi Rumesh,

I thought of checking my PCV valve myself. Is this a DIY kind of a job? Engine is 2SZ. If I was to clean it what cleaner is good? carb cleaner?

Apologies for going OT now. Yes it is a DIY as long as you are careful not to damage the rubber grommet that holds PCV to the cam cover. One method of checking the effectiveness of PCV is explained here 

You may have to rev up to around 1000 RPM to see a vacuum forming in the crank case. 

When you remove the PCV be careful not to damage  the rubber grommet because given the age of a 2SZ engine now that the grommet must have lost its resilience and it may crack if you apply undue force on it. So use a fork-like tool (pointed nose pliers or something similar) to slowly pry the PCV out. You can use a carb cleaner but do not use it on the rubber parts. PCV is plastic but immune to solvents but better to use as little as possible. Hence it is better if you can keep the PCV submerged in diesel or kerosene for couple of hours and then apply a little carb cleaner to flush out deposits. Once you clean it you should hear a faint click sound when you shake the PCV. Also the oil baffles inside the cam cover may need cleaning too. But for this you have to take the cam cover out and soak the whole thing in diesel for a longtime. You would not believe how hard the gunk you find inside.

Edited by Rumesh88
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

It is worthwhile to mention here a non-coincident attributes relating to the PCV unit. 

  • 1. PCV failures (open or clogged ) is very rarely contributes for sludge formation,
  • 2, If the Sludge already formed due to some other reason ( Ex: No timely changes of engine oil), PCV is a very first victim  of the engine that may be clogged due to its location. This should not understand incorrectly as PCV failure oriented. matter & should not be blamed for PCV .However most of the time it can be cleaned and reuse.

To simply check it  after cleaning , remove the PCV ( Vacuum hose to be kept as it is ) from the plug attached to the cylinder upper head, Start the engine and keep in idle . Put your finger on the top of the removed PCV tip for  a short moment  & several times, If you feel valve open and close each time the PCV is good. This clears the both fault conditions ( open & clogged) of a PCV.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
12 minutes ago, Rohnd said:

It is worthwhile to mention here a non-coincident attributes relating to the PCV unit. 

  • 1. PCV failures (open or clogged ) is very rarely contributes for sludge formation,

In technical point of view,

Quoted from http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/197......

A plugged PCV valve causes many other engine problems. Pressure begins to build and gaskets and oil seals may fail. When an engine suffers multiple oil leaks, we should always inspect the PCV system. Another problem is a lack of air flow to carry vapors from the crankcase. Without air flow, moisture contamination remains and a sludge buildup is often a result. Operating the engine without adequate ventilation is a leading cause of engine sludge.

....unquote.

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
14 minutes ago, Rohnd said:

 

  • 1. PCV failures (open or clogged ) is very rarely contributes for sludge formation, - 
  • 2, If the Sludge already formed due to some other reason ( Ex: No timely changes of engine oil), PCV is a very first victim  of the engine that may be clogged due to its location. This should not understand incorrectly as PCV failure oriented. matter & should not be blamed for PCV .However most of the time it can be cleaned and reuse.

 

What evidence do you have in substantiating the Point 1 above?

With regard to Point 2 above how does the sludge reach PCV passing the oil baffles? In fact it is so located to "prevent" sludge or liquid oil from reaching the valve.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


AutoLanka Cars For Sale

Post Your Ad Free [Click Here]



×
×
  • Create New...