Fit GP1 Oil Level Drops

[vitz]

Experts

We got a GP1 (2012), 83000km clocked

- I noticed a drastic drop of engine oil level, I need to top up engine oil once to twice during the service interval. What is the problem?

I wanted to do a tuneup and replacement of plugs done from the Stafford assuming the problem would be solved. Since there are no service reservations available till 22nd Feb, I was compelled to take the vehicle to one of their dealer in Kurunegala. Before visiting the place today,  I got a confirmation on the availability of spark plugs with them, but after cleaning injectors and throttle body, they said that spark plugs are not available (typical irresponsible feed back from SL response) . We cleaned all 8 plugs and put them back.  Anyways, it allowed me to take a pic of the present status of the spark plugs (see below). One of the mechanic was saying that deposits on the plug could be due to sludge formation and this can be solved by cleaning the piston areas and changing piston rings. He was saying oil level drop is resulted by the sludge formation. I am not much sure about what he says?.

 We bought this car unregistered in 2013 (15000km clocked) and serviced timely. It is a daily long distance runner (160 km). Hard to believe a sludge formation. 

For first services in during first one and half years we had to use 10w-30 oil since 0W-20 was not available. Then we reverted to 0w-20, could this be a reason?. Do you think shifting to 10W-30 would solve the problem?

Edited February 18, 2017 by vitz

[Rohnd]

5 hours ago, Rumesh88 said:

What evidence do you have in substantiating the Point 1 above?

With regard to Point 2 above how does the sludge reach PCV passing the oil baffles? In fact it is so located to "prevent" sludge or liquid oil from reaching the valve.

What I wanted here was to  discuss the main cause of Sludge in engine, and identify the main cause to that is as the poor maintenance or prolonged service intervals because Vitz had two similar attacks according to him. Every time we cannot say PCV. Though it is a reason for sludge formation, low evidence for failures (within itself) , since it is a very reliable mechanical device. That is why I stated as very rare. I hope nothing is wrong.

With regard to point 2 , I agree that there is a separation (baffles) to oil mist and Blow by gases, but still we see PCVs clog due to contaminated particles from oil . I hope, that is why we talked cleaning of clogged PCVs due to these particles. None of these particles come through inlet air duct but from crank case side. I think clear.

 

[vitz]

Reaching the PCV valve of Honda Fit is a tedious task. It needs even the removal of the intake manifold

Based on experience, the mechanic does not suspect the PCV valve. The problem I faced is an inherent problem of some Fit GP1 and Insight engines. 

Edited February 28, 2017 by vitz

[Rumesh88]

15 hours ago, Rohnd said:

What I wanted here was to  discuss the main cause of Sludge in engine, and identify the main cause to that is as the poor maintenance or prolonged service intervals because Vitz had two similar attacks according to him. Every time we cannot say PCV. Though it is a reason for sludge formation, low evidence for failures (within itself) , since it is a very reliable mechanical device. That is why I stated as very rare. I hope nothing is wrong.

With regard to point 2 , I agree that there is a separation (baffles) to oil mist and Blow by gases, but still we see PCVs clog due to contaminated particles from oil . I hope, that is why we talked cleaning of clogged PCVs due to these particles. None of these particles come through inlet air duct but from crank case side. I think clear.

 

Within the context  of this thread what you say is correct. However PCVs are not mainly contaminated by the particles in oil but by the unburned carbon particles in blow-by fumes mixed with oil vapor which is easily subjected to oxidation. Remember blow-by fumes are expelled from the coldest area of a cylinder wall and hence, consist of part of the least burned mixture within the chamber.

[Rohnd]

On 2/28/2017 at 10:16 PM, vitz said:

Reaching the PCV valve of Honda Fit is a tedious task. It needs even the removal of the intake manifold

Based on experience, the mechanic does not suspect the PCV valve. The problem I faced is an inherent problem of some Fit GP1 and Insight engines. 

Yes , In newest engine designs the PCV is incorporated into the middle/bottom part of crankcase with an oil separator instead of baffles. The baffles may be still there for the upper crank case to throttle body linkage.

Access to the  PCV is very difficult in these engines and the so called separator is also vulnerable for clogging due to carbon particles and  oil sludge etc. This unit is also replaceable if found abnormal.

What are the next steps to be taken if, this problem is an inherent problem to Honda Fit and what the cause in real to begin according to Honda experts ?

Edited March 5, 2017 by Rohnd

[hrm]

I cleaned PCV valve in my 2SZ engine today. In these engines it's a pretty straight forward job.

[vitz]

15 hours ago, Rohnd said:

Yes , In newest engine designs the PCV is incorporated into the middle/bottom part of crankcase with an oil separator instead of baffles. The baffles may be still there for the upper crank case to throttle body linkage.

Access to the  PCV is very difficult in these engines and the so called separator is also vulnerable for clogging due to carbon particles and  oil sludge etc. This unit is also replaceable if found abnormal.

What are the next steps to be taken if, this problem is an inherent problem to Honda Fit and what the cause in real to begin according to Honda experts ?

Best option would be as many suggested to stick to shorter service intervals. As recommended by the garage I shifted to Havaoline Eco5 0W-20 (full synthetic). Though the garage itself recommended me 8000 km, to be safe side better to change at 5000 km though this is a long distance runner. 

Why this full synthetic oil is quite cheap compared to other brands?

By the way, what is the recommended oil and service interval by staford?

[Rohnd]

4 hours ago, vitz said:

Best option would be as many suggested to stick to shorter service intervals. As recommended by the garage I shifted to Havaoline Eco5 0W-20 (full synthetic). Though the garage itself recommended me 8000 km, to be safe side better to change at 5000 km though this is a long distance runner. 

Why this full synthetic oil is quite cheap compared to other brands?

By the way, what is the recommended oil and service interval by staford?

Prices may depend on the brand , additives used and the country of origin where they packed etc.

Most of the JDM vehicles run on 0W-20 according to the Temperature.environment in Japan, however I hope that 10W-30 is good for the environment for Sri Lanka. Some manufactures publish different ranges according to the resident country of the vehicle, sometimes use even 15W-40 in hot countries such as Middle East. There are many compromises will not harm engines.

Anyway it is good to have the change oil at intervals  less than 5000 Km and 6 month duration (whichever comes first),

I do not have any idea about Staffo+d's recommendation.

If you experienced a minor sludge formation you may clean the engine by applying short term oil changes very few times( say 1 to 3 times) at 1500 Km intervals like according to the situation.  This is one of  cleaning methods without flushing or dismantling .

I think it is wise to get Stffo+d  idea too about your problem.

 

 

 

[Sam B]

I own a GP1 2013 that has clocked nearly 57000km now. Been servicing every 5000km with Havoline ECO 5. Noticed that oil level had dropped by around 1cm in my last service (after 5000km and 4 months since the service before). Bought it unregistered after verifying with pre-shipment inspectors that mileage is genuine (had done 28k in Japan), so I don't believe that the engine is worn. Is this place in Polgolla better than Staffords to get the issue inspected and remedied? 

 

[Sam B]

53 minutes ago, vitz said:

I would wait for another service interval and verify. Please note that the oil level can drop drastically without your notice. Please inspect the oil level frequently.

Your case also suggest that this is an inherent problem of some GP1 irrespective of timely service. 

I got done my vehicle repaired from Polgolla Axx Sxxx since I am living in Kandy and they did a satisfactory job. I cannot compare stafford and this place. If you are in Colombo, why not Staford.

I normally check the levels every time I pump fuel. But for last 2 months or so prior to the service couldn't.

[vitz]

Quite useful discussion: Take home message "Gunked up oil rings cannot cause undercompression of an engine"

 

http://honda-tech.com/forums/tech-misc-15/burning-excessive-amount-oil-after-2-valve-jobs-3227957/

[Sam B]

Took the car to Stafford. And this is the state of one of the plugs.

They say that the rings have shrunk (ring බදලා ) making a gap between the rings and liner. Apparently they've come across a few similar cases.

@Rumesh88 What's your opinion regarding this? 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Sam B

[Rumesh88]

The plug in the above picture looks normal to me except that the gap seems a bit too large (it may be that the gap is correct but the picture angle makes it seems too wide). As for agent's diagnosis,well they could be right I'm afraid. Did they give you a cost estimate for corrective action?

[gayanath]

16 hours ago, Sam B said:

Took the car to Stafford. And this is the state of one of the plugs.

They say that the rings have shrunk (ring බදලා ) making a gap between the rings and liner. Apparently they've come across a few similar cases.

@Rumesh88 What's your opinion regarding this? 

Seems nothing wrong with this plug. This is far better than those I saw with less millage engines than yours (having no engine problems). 

Edited April 4, 2017 by gayanath

[Sam B]

4 hours ago, Rumesh88 said:

The plug in the above picture looks normal to me except that the gap seems a bit too large (it may be that the gap is correct but the picture angle makes it seems too wide). As for agent's diagnosis,well they could be right I'm afraid. Did they give you a cost estimate for corrective action?

56 minutes ago, gayanath said:

Seems nothing wrong with this plug. This is far better than which I saw with less millage engines than yours (having no engine problems). 

 

@Rumesh88 They say rings have to be changed at around 70,000LKR. Should I get a second opinion from another workshop?

@gayanath They say that I'm burning oil and the problem is still at initial stage. Ran a scan and there are no misfires. Internet says that white deposits can also mean a leaking head gasket. 

 

 

[Rumesh88]

1 hour ago, Sam B said:

 

@Rumesh88 They say rings have to be changed at around 70,000LKR. Should I get a second opinion from another workshop?

@gayanath They say that I'm burning oil and the problem is still at initial stage. Ran a scan and there are no misfires. Internet says that white deposits can also mean a leaking head gasket. 

 

 

Two more forum members @vitz and @tbird had the same issue and got it resolved in the same manner. You may go for a second opinion but in my view that is not necessary.

[Sam B]

6 minutes ago, Rumesh88 said:

Two more forum members @vitz and @tbird had the same issue and got it resolved in the same manner. You may go for a second opinion but in my view that is not necessary.

Their cost estimate for ring replacement is 70k. Is that a reasonable rate?

[Rumesh88]

1 hour ago, Sam B said:

Their cost estimate for ring replacement is 70k. Is that a reasonable rate?

You may ask other two members for their feedback on cost. IMO considering the scope of work involved and it comes with the agent's guarantee, the price is reasonable. However if you know a reliable place you should be able to get it done for a lesser price.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Rumesh88

[vitz]

24 minutes ago, Rumesh88 said:

You may ask other two members for their feedback on cost. IMO considering the scope of work involved and it comes with the agent's guarantee, the price is reasonable. However if you know a reliable place you should be able to get it done for a lesser price.

Hi Sam,

Seems you too got the same problem. However, I am wondering what would really be the reason as we can drop following arguments.

1. lengthy service intervals - Though I had bit extended service intervals, it seems that in your case you maintained 5000km interval. I hope you had maintained the service interval of 6 months at least.-not related to the service interval

2. Type of oil - My case I used Honda, toyota oil and you have used Havoline - not related to the brand/type of oil.

3. Mileage - 57000 vs 87000 km: not related to the mileage

By the way, it cost me Rs. 50,000 including oil change, air filter (honda Rs. 4750), oil filter. The repair cost itself Rs. 40,000.00. However, they did not replace oil rings as they were not worn. Now I am bit concerned about not replacing oil rings as this fault could be something related to a manufacturing defect of rings.  

[Rumesh88]

@vitz Thank you for the feedback and arguments. This is getting really interesting.  BTW I have a few questions and appreciate your feedback.

1.Did you get it done at an agent's facility?

2. I believe they removed the engine out. But did they remove the head or only the oil sump to take the pistons out from bottom? Latter method is the cheaper option because of the saving on the gasket. I'm asking this cos with some engines you can do it with the transmission still attached but in others you cannot.

3. Was it only the oil rings(bottom most one) that were stuck or the others as well?

4. When the oil residue hardens it is really difficult to remove it. It tuns into a cement. Did they use any solvent to clean it or used any other method to clean the ring grooves.

[vitz]

16 hours ago, Rumesh88 said:

@vitz Thank you for the feedback and arguments. This is getting really interesting.  BTW I have a few questions and appreciate your feedback.

1.Did you get it done at an agent's facility?

2. I believe they removed the engine out. But did they remove the head or only the oil sump to take the pistons out from bottom? Latter method is the cheaper option because of the saving on the gasket. I'm asking this cos with some engines you can do it with the transmission still attached but in others you cannot.

3. Was it only the oil rings(bottom most one) that were stuck or the others as well?

4. When the oil residue hardens it is really difficult to remove it. It tuns into a cement. Did they use any solvent to clean it or used any other method to clean the ring grooves.

Hi Ramesh,

1. I got this done at the famous Honda Garage in Polgolla. They are quite familiar with the engine as they have dealt with it. Further, got all scanners etc.

2. They removed the engine and totally dis-ambled. 

3.  only oil rings

4. I was not at the facility when the cleaning was done. Mechanic said that rings were misaligned too.

I was wondering, can engine flush solve this problem?

 

[Rumesh88]

@vitz Thank you for your reply. Now @Sam B can decide what to do based on your information. 

An engine flush would not solve this problem (well it wouldn't "solve" anything IMO but would give you a "feel good" sensation).

[Sam B]

On 2017-4-4 at 4:51 PM, vitz said:

Hi Sam,

Seems you too got the same problem. However, I am wondering what would really be the reason as we can drop following arguments.

1. lengthy service intervals - Though I had bit extended service intervals, it seems that in your case you maintained 5000km interval. I hope you had maintained the service interval of 6 months at least.-not related to the service interval

2. Type of oil - My case I used Honda, toyota oil and you have used Havoline - not related to the brand/type of oil.

3. Mileage - 57000 vs 87000 km: not related to the mileage

By the way, it cost me Rs. 50,000 including oil change, air filter (honda Rs. 4750), oil filter. The repair cost itself Rs. 40,000.00. However, they did not replace oil rings as they were not worn. Now I am bit concerned about not replacing oil rings as this fault could be something related to a manufacturing defect of rings.  

Hello, sorry about the delay in replying. 

Another 5000km is due and the level drop still seem to persist. However, the drop I believe has reduced by 1mm or 2. But that's not an accurate measurement 

What is your driving pattern? I seldom do long journeys and mostly do short distances. Stafford guy said that problem may lie there, but that was not -one would call - expert advice.

 

EDIT: Yes, first few services were done every 6 months because of low mileage. But IIRC @Rumesh88 mentioned somewhere changing oil based on time is only a requirement for mineral oils. 

Edited June 9, 2017 by Sam B

[tbird]

3 hours ago, Sam B said:

Hello, sorry about the delay in replying. 

Another 5000km is due and the level drop still seem to persist. However, the drop I believe has reduced by 1mm or 2. But that's not an accurate measurement 

What is your driving pattern? I seldom do long journeys and mostly do short distances. Stafford guy said that problem may lie there, but that was not -one would call - expert advice.

Hmm, as I mentioned previously, I also had the same issue and disassembled the engine and cleaned at Polgolla garage. After that I clocked another 15000 km (three 5000 km services after cleaning the engine). I did not notice this issue after cleaning the engine (I monitor the engine oil level once a week)

My driving pattern is short distance (40 km daily) and some long distance trips regularly (Kandy-Colomb-Kandy).

I had a bad habit and I stopped it after this sludge issue, not sure it is related to that habit.

Before the sludge issue, everyday morning I open the gate and drive the car out of the garage, stop the engine before it comes to the optimum temperature,

Then start the car when my wife is ready to go to work and drive her to the work place.

Now I do not stop the engine and keep the engine started till wife ready to go to work

Edited June 6, 2017 by tbird

[Rumesh88]

37 minutes ago, tbird said:

I had a bad habit and I stopped it after this sludge issue, not sure it is related to that habit.

Before the sludge issue, everyday morning I open the gate and drive the car out of the garage, stop the engine before it comes to the optimum temperature,

Then start the car when my wife is ready to go to work and drive her to the work place.

Now I do not stop the engine and keep the engine started till wife ready to go to work

That's a possibility, particularly so if you are living in a place with low morning temperatures.

[GK_007]

I think I am having the same issue with my Honda Fit GP1 2013 clocked 73500kms. I also do monitor oil levels normally on a weekly basis and noticed the issue since last 2-3 services. Well still the oil level is between the High and low marks on the dip stick, but a reduction of like 0.5 cm is evident.

So I do a top up in like 3000 kms after a service. (My service interval 5000kms , oil 0w 30).Unless I am having a different issue, dont think the issue is with running short distances. Because I do like 100kms every day !

Car does not show any indication of wearing out, pick up is good. No black smoke, the exhaust gives out moisture. And I do services on time, Bought the car with genuine verified mileage 5000 kms. 

After reading this thread, called the Stafford and they said oil level reduction in GP1 is kind of a known issue and even now they are repairing 2 vehicles. They said engine needs to be decarbonized, plugs replaced and some adjustment to rings (when I asked if ring replacement is required they said not needed). And they also told that the cost of repair would be roughly 100000 Rs. :s And they also said that after the repair they will be recommending a thicker engine oil. Could not get the code of oil, if it is 30 or 40 ! 

So I am wondering what to do, :s , I have no clue of what they are planning to do as the repair. Is it a full engine repair ? Should I go for it ? Bit hesitant since I see no other evidence of burning oil. :s (BTW, dont see any leaks as well) 

Please help me to take the next step.