Drags And Starts In The Mornings

[sampa]

Hi All,

From last Saturday when I start the car (Wingroad Y11) in the morning it drags and starts. It start the way like the battery is dead. Drag start will not happen when you drive some distance and try to start it again. This happens only in the morning or when you stops the car for a long period of time for instance 7, 8 hours. Though it drags and start for the first time it doesn't drag and start if I start it in the second or third time but if you leave the car without driving and try to start the car after 10 or 15 mints time the drag start will occur again. I service the starter motor. Check the battery as well and check for the any shots using the wire mechanism. It seems like no problem on above mention devices.

Any idea what will be the problem for drag start in the mornings.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

Sampa

[BLu3HaZe]

Sounds probably like a serious electrical leak in the system killing the battery if it doesn't start properly even when left standing for 15 mins

Edited February 23, 2011 by BLu3HaZe

[sampa]

Thanks for the update. If I dive for few KM it will start as normal. but if I keep without starting the car for a long period of time for instance 7, 8 hours then agin it will start with a drag

[charitha19]

check the battery in the morning before u start.. check for the voltage to see if its in an accptable range.. if it is u can rule out the battery draining.. since u checked the wires. i would check the spark plugs as well.

[Ripper]

it's either a weak battery or serious drain due to a short somewhere...

sounds more like a weak battery to me though... how old is you battery btw?

[Archon]

I suspect the culprit is the alternator diode set, take it to a reliable electrician and check the alternator .. yea yea this looks completely irrelevant but I have came across a similar event with a Nissan FB13 that’s why. If it is the problem they will replace the diode kit which is less expensive.

Cheers

Archon

[The Stig]

Yep as ripper said i also think its a weak battery that cant hold the charge for a long period.

If its a problem with the alternator the car wouldn't start properly after you drive it for a while, in this case since it does that means the alternator is actually functioning properly.

Its either a weak battery that cant hold the charge or a huge electrical leak

[Archon]

  On 2/23/2011 at 7:15 AM, The Stig said:

Yep as ripper said i also think its a weak battery that cant hold the charge for a long period.

If its a problem with the alternator the car wouldn't start properly after you drive it for a while, in this case since it does that means the alternator is actually functioning properly.

Its either a weak battery that cant hold the charge or a huge electrical leak

Stig hi mate! he says, "Though it drags and start for the first time it doesn't drag and start if I start it in the second or third time" if the battery is weak at the 1st place how come it will be able to provide much better power on the 2nd and 3rd attempts.

I have came across such a bizarre behavior and it was the alternator diode set and once they were replaced it got solved.. yes it sounds very odd! Its very very odd.

Cheers!

Archon

[BLu3HaZe]

Yes so when you drive the car, the alternator charges the battery constantly and there isn't time to discharge too much to make it difficult to start the car, right? You better get it checked by auto electrician for any short circuits and excessive battery drain, and also check alternator diodes as Archon says at the same time.And btw, how do you start it in the morning? Engine starts after a few attempts, but never the first one?

[Archon]

oh and dont forget to check the relevent relay too..

Archon

[The Stig]

  On 2/23/2011 at 7:24 AM, Archon said:

Stig hi mate! he says, "Though it drags and start for the first time it doesn't drag and start if I start it in the second or third time" if the battery is weak at the 1st place how come it will be able to provide much better power on the 2nd and 3rd attempts.

I have came across such a bizarre behavior and it was the alternator diode set and once they were replaced it got solved.. yes it sounds very odd! Its very very odd.

Cheers!

Archon

"Though it drags and start for the first time it doesn't drag and start if I start it in the second or third time" Exactly if the alternator was faulty it wouldn't be able to charge the battery properly after the car starts, whereas here he says that the car starts properly after a while so that means the alternator is doing its job.lets assume that on a cold start the battery has only 40% charge but to start properly you need at lest 60% so if the car starts properly after a short drive it obviously means the alternator has charged the battery to the proper levels.

On the topic of "if the battery is weak at the 1st place how come it will be able to provide much better power on the 2nd and 3rd attempts" see machan over time batteries loose their capacity, so when he parks his car in the night even though the battery is charged fully it will loose the charge over time leading to the drag that he describes ( a leak in the electrical system could also lead to the battery depleting rapidly)

See the time period between parking the car in the night and a cold start in the morning could be as long as 12 hours,if the battery isnt weak it would be able to hold the charge for this time period but in this case it doesn't. whereas the time between a short drive after which the engine is stopped and stared again could be very short so the battery wont have enough time to deplete a lot.

You know all my assumptions could be wrong cause the problem might be something totally different but i was just explaining my theory to you

BTW what was wrong with your car ? what were the symptoms ?

[BLu3HaZe]

He does mention that he checked the battery, and no problems with it, which probably was done by the mechanic who checked the starter motor and would have known if an old battery was the culprit right? But also he's mentioned no shorts in the system making it a confusing situation..

@Stiggy and Archon - Does the alternator diodes malfunctioning completely stop the alternators' action or does it let reverse flow when the engine is stopped, discharging the battery but work properly when the engine is running?

[sampa]

Hi All,

Thak you all for your thoughts. I was thinking if it is a short circuit situation in the electrical system the battery will go ded which the battery can not give the power for dash board's lights or door lights ect. isn't it?. what I thought was to remove the battery from the car and go and show it to battery agent to see the battery is in the good condition.

[Archon]

  On 2/23/2011 at 8:18 AM, BLu3HaZe said:

He does mention that he checked the battery, and no problems with it, which probably was done by the mechanic who checked the starter motor and would have known if an old battery was the culprit right? But also he's mentioned no shorts in the system making it a confusing situation..

@Stiggy and Archon - Does the alternator diodes malfunctioning completely stop the alternators' action or does it let reverse flow when the engine is stopped, discharging the battery but work properly when the engine is running?

yes BLu3HaZe in FB 13 alternator (a generic alternator) has 2 circuit boards side by side mounted inside the alternator housing. When they go bad (they sort of get burnt away). But the alternator keeps working at the initial stage charging the battery but at a poor efficiency until a considerable number of diodes fail.( << according what I remember.. coz it happened about 2 years ago )

But the most important fact is that when the car is switched “off ” and parked aside, these bad diodes make the battery to drain at a considerably fast rate.(that I remember very well)

If he has lesser number of diodes gone bad the battery drain is not that rapid, hence I suspect that’s why he can still start the car in the morning.. but our FB13 was not able to start at all those days if we have left the car over a single night (it was a new 95Ah battery). So we had to disconnect the batter until we solved the issue.

Cheers ,

Archon

[Archon]

@ stig , yes muchang i agree with your point but muchang bad diodes do clearly drain the battery. I have experienced it so clearly. And our car didn’t had any electrical faults or shorts besides that one.. once the diode set was replaced then the problem got solved instantly 100%.

The symptoms I had was draining of battery so quickly even if the battery was very new.

What I cant quite explain is the phenomenon where his starter motor drags at the 1st attempt where his latter consecutive attempts get successful ! I cant remember this particular behavior coz it happened 2 years back to our fb13.

That’s why I also want him to check the relevant “Relay” too

Cheers

Archon

[harshansenadhir]

  On 2/23/2011 at 8:59 AM, Archon said:

yes BLu3HaZe in FB 13 alternator (a generic alternator) has 2 circuit boards side by side mounted inside the alternator housing. When they go bad (they sort of get burnt away). But the alternator keeps working at the initial stage charging the battery but at a poor efficiency until a considerable number of diodes fail.( << according what I remember.. coz it happened about 2 years ago )

But the most important fact is that when the car is switched “off ” and parked aside, these bad diodes make the battery to drain at a considerably fast rate.(that I remember very well)

If he has lesser number of diodes gone bad the battery drain is not that rapid, hence I suspect that’s why he can still start the car in the morning.. but our FB13 was not able to start at all those days if we have left the car over a single night (it was a new 95Ah battery). So we had to disconnect the batter until we solved the issue.

Cheers ,

Archon

Diodes are used to derive a regular/smoother straight D/C current from the alternator A/C supply. There's a charging IC which resides inside the alternator which looks after the flow of the current. I.E, if the alternator is running then current will flow from alternator to the battery depending on the charging capacity remaining in the battery. If the alternator is not running, the tendency will be the current to flow back to the alternator. This is prevented by the charging IC, not by the diode plate. In old vehicles, there's a voltage regulator (AKA Cut-out in local electrician term) which serves this purpose.

OP

you can re-do a battery test and and a load test, the battery guys usually know how to do a load test. As most of members mentioned, check whether there is a current flow back to the battery once you stop the engine. It can be a faulty charging IC or some component consumes battery power when ignition is switched off. Search the forum for a detailed response I've given for a similar issue.

to be ascertain it's related to electrics, get another battery and try to start the car in the morning. If it starts without any issue, you can be sure that it's either the battery is weak or battery is drained.

Edited February 23, 2011 by harshansenadhir

[Ripper]

1+ on Harshan and Stig...

and the topic starter didn't say how old his battery is

[Archon]

@ harshansenadhir .. well i donno electronics but thats how our electrician solved the problem and he showed us the faulty diode plates and that’s what he replaced. And that’s what solved the case.. not the voltage regulator…

Cheers,

Archon

[harshansenadhir]

  On 2/23/2011 at 11:17 AM, Archon said:

@ harshansenadhir .. well i donno electronics but thats how our electrician solved the problem and he showed us the faulty diode plates and that’s what he replaced. And that’s what solved the case.. not the voltage regulator…

Cheers,

Archon

your problem would've been the battery isn't getting charged sufficiently to hold power for the morning or cold start. which would've sorted out by replacing the diode plate. There are designs which has the charging IC is also embedded to the same circuit inside the alternator. In this design there is NO voltage regulator externally (cut out) unless otherwise someone had later modified and introduced it.

That's no way related to the problem the OP had mentioned, the alternator and the entire charging circuit does the job well once the engine starts and when the alternator starts generating electricity. As Stig says it proves by his own statement that the car starts fine after few minutes of a drive. This is NO WAY possible with a faulty diode plate.

Whether the battery cannot hold it up or some excessive drain is there need to be find out and I'm waiting for OPs feedback on the questions I asked.

[Archon]

hummmm .....

Cheers

Archon

[The Stig]

  On 2/23/2011 at 8:18 AM, BLu3HaZe said:

He does mention that he checked the battery, and no problems with it, which probably was done by the mechanic who checked the starter motor and would have known if an old battery was the culprit right? But also he's mentioned no shorts in the system making it a confusing situation..

@Stiggy and Archon - Does the alternator diodes malfunctioning completely stop the alternators' action or does it let reverse flow when the engine is stopped, discharging the battery but work properly when the engine is running?

No machan alternator diodes are there to create a stable flow of current without any fluctuations (if you did physics you would be familiar with the concept AC to DC, but its not rocket science just google it machan)

Initially the job of a diode is to send current in only one way but here its used in a different application, as Harshana said the charging IC is the one responsible for the flow of current so if there is such a thing the problem is in the ic not the diodes

I think in Archons case the whole circuit ( IC+ Diodes) must have been attached to the alternator

[Ripper]

alternators or even dynamoes by default creates AC or alternating current

which is ok for some applications but not ok for others...especially things like charging a battery.

that absolutely needs DC current

Almost all cars these days have an integrated rectifier unit to make the AC to DC.

As Stiggy says...very simple stuff. This is what some folks call a diode pack cos it's actually four diodes arranged in such a way AC becomes DC after going through them.

If this unit fails...your battery wont charge period.

Also some electrical stuff like stereos etc wont work... cos they need a proper dc supply.

So what OP's saying can't happen if the rectifier unit is busted as his battery seems to hold charge for a sometime after running the car a bit. which means the battery is getting charged.

The other unit that's integrated to the alternator is the regulator or cut-off as some of the older models used to call it.

This nowadays have a small IC in it cos IC are cheaper now and takes little space. Older cut outs or regulators took more space.

This unit basically ensures that the voltage doesn't increase beyond a certain limit as the engine revolutions increase.

Say some cars wont give you more than 14.5v even if you rev the engine upto the redline.

The regulator is there so that increasing voltage wont overcharge and damage the battery and also end up killing other accessories by over powering them.

So from what OP says....both these doesn't happen.

which in turn means the alternator is working as it should

So the problem is that the battery is not holding charge

it can be either due to some electrical malfunction draining the battery and the battery itself having lost the ability to hold charge.

Personally i feel it's the latter. Unless OP comes out and says his battery is new and doesn't have weak cells etc...

[Archon]

Thanks stig and ripper for enlightening me.., i do really appriciate you guys

Cheers

Archon

[harshansenadhir]

  On 2/23/2011 at 6:15 PM, Ripper said:

alternators or even dynamoes by default creates AC or alternating current

which is ok for some applications but not ok for others...especially things like charging a battery.

that absolutely needs DC current

Almost all cars these days have an integrated rectifier unit to make the AC to DC.

As Stiggy says...very simple stuff. This is what some folks call a diode pack cos it's actually four diodes arranged in such a way AC becomes DC after going through them.

If this unit fails...your battery wont charge period.

Also some electrical stuff like stereos etc wont work... cos they need a proper dc supply.

So what OP's saying can't happen if the rectifier unit is busted as his battery seems to hold charge for a sometime after running the car a bit. which means the battery is getting charged.

The other unit that's integrated to the alternator is the regulator or cut-off as some of the older models used to call it.

This nowadays have a small IC in it cos IC are cheaper now and takes little space. Older cut outs or regulators took more space.

This unit basically ensures that the voltage doesn't increase beyond a certain limit as the engine revolutions increase.

Say some cars wont give you more than 14.5v even if you rev the engine upto the redline.

The regulator is there so that increasing voltage wont overcharge and damage the battery and also end up killing other accessories by over powering them.

So from what OP says....both these doesn't happen.

which in turn means the alternator is working as it should

So the problem is that the battery is not holding charge

it can be either due to some electrical malfunction draining the battery and the battery itself having lost the ability to hold charge.

Personally i feel it's the latter. Unless OP comes out and says his battery is new and doesn't have weak cells etc...

++1 Ripper,

another reasons why cut-outs were replaced,

they needed calibrating time to time and there's a slight energy wastage because there are two coils (fairly big) and when contacts are in operation it always sparks. Further, you when the battery is topped up you can clearly see a flicker in lights in the night. That is the cut out working frequency, on and off cycles.

In IC based regulators all these were rectified.

[sampa]

Hi All,

Thaks for the thoughts. I went to battery technician yesterday. He wanted to check the battery when the problem arises. He said remove the battery and bring it to him when the problems comes. All this time I was driving the car to the battery technician at the time he check for the battery it look fine. So I will get this done and keep you guys posted.Thanks again

[MkX]

  On 2/24/2011 at 8:21 AM, sampa said:

Hi All,

Thaks for the thoughts. I went to battery technician yesterday. He wanted to check the battery when the problem arises. He said remove the battery and bring it to him when the problems comes. All this time I was driving the car to the battery technician at the time he check for the battery it look fine. So I will get this done and keep you guys posted.Thanks again

as ripper said it is most likely the old battery. I still coudn't find out any where you mention how old the battery is??????.

You can do some basic tests and find out how healthy you battery is. Battery technitian will get few bucks from you and will say battery is weak.