Engine Overhaul 2C

[Amila G]

Guys we have a townace CR27 with a very worn 2C engine and was thinking of an overhaul.

Up to now I thought an overhaul on this engine means re boring the engine block, use new pistons, rings and so... and would cost north of 100K

But a good mech I know suggested that I can remove the old sleves and put new ones in + put new piston rings and it' only cost about 40k.

I actually did not know that a 2C engine had sleeves in the block and can be swapped like that instead of a re boring and using new pistons + rings ?

Is it a good thing to swap the sleeves or is he trying to rip me ? Btw if it s possible why everyone spend 100k on a rebuid ?

I'm quite puzzled and any help is highly appreciated.

[CARBON B4]

But what if you find out that your pistons are gone and it not only the rings ? It maybe difficult to say without taking it apart, so if you need to replace you have no choice...

[Amila G]

  On 2/14/2012 at 7:42 AM, CARBON B4 said:

But what if you find out that your pistons are gone and it not only the rings ? It maybe difficult to say without taking it apart, so if you need to replace you have no choice...

Thanks mate.

Yup, I know. But I need to know if it s possible to re-sleeve the engine without re-boring it ?

From what I found on the net, you put new sleeves in only if the original ones are worn so much that it cannot be bored out. To put a new sleeve you need to machine out the old one, put a new one in and machine it again to the piston size and it costs more to re sleeve than just to re-bore the existing sleeve.

So I need to know if the mech is telling the truth and does a 2C really have sleeves or the cylinder is just carved out of the block.

[oshad]

I did up my 2c on the Townace a couple of years back and it cost me close to a 100k for parts from Toyota Lanka.. if I remember right what we replaced was the rings, gasket timing belt, razors and the water pump.. Used the same Pistons.. Oh btw the injectors was replaced as well.. after 60,000 km's after the overhaul no major engine issues yet other than the common running repairs.. I do have to say that the power gain was not that significant after overhaul maybe coz I did the overhaul before it got too ugly or may be the fact its the heavier 4WD version.

[Amila G]

  On 2/14/2012 at 8:16 AM, oshad said:

I did up my 2c on the Townace a couple of years back and it cost me close to a 100k for parts from Toyota Lanka.. if I remember right what we replaced was the rings, gasket timing belt, razors and the water pump.. Used the same Pistons.. Oh btw the injectors was replaced as well.. after 60,000 km's after the overhaul no major engine issues yet other than the common running repairs.. I do have to say that the power gain was not that significant after overhaul maybe coz I did the overhaul before it got too ugly or may be the fact its the heavier 4WD version.

Do you remember if it was re-bored or put new sleeves in ? btw t/belt + injectors are already replaced on mine. Did the fuel consumption or exhaust smoke improved after the overhaul ?

[harshansenadhir]

Few things to consider into the whole equation.

1. Number of overhauls done in this engine and the size of the pistons (whether it's standard, 0.25 / 0.50 or etc)

2. Condition of the cyinder bore and the pistons specially the pistons to see whether there are any damages. Since you said it was very worn engine, there can possibly be damages in the pistons due to slapping of pistons.

3. Amount you going to spend on the spares, say if you're to put sleeves, yes it should be of good quality, else the new sleeve will wear out faster than the re-bored cylinder bore.

I'd say, dismantle the engine first, without trying to freeze the plan/methodology with a known budget. Then decide what's best.

if the pistons are of standard size and of good quality, that means no burn marks, no damages, no visible hairline cracks on around the gudgen pin area, yes you can re-use them. I would advise you to proceed with a caution as old/used pistons tend to get damaged when you put up with new sleeves.

Also, if you're planning to keep the vehicle for prolonged period, better to go for a re-boring with new set of pistons as you will have new everything inside and the bore is still with solid original material that the engine block is made out. You never know the quality of the aftermarket sleeves available. Further, you will gain a slight increase in CC as re-bored cylinder will have slightly more capacity than the original one.

the downside of re-boring is you will have to depend on the quality of the place where you get the lathe work done and if you get it done through professionals who does fairly good volumes.

on a side note, I've gained better results by just replacing the rings without changing anything except gasket and seals and t-belt. That 1C engine lasted for more than 3 years daily driving till the next full overhaul.

[Amila G]

  On 2/14/2012 at 8:41 AM, harshansenadhir said:

Few things to consider into the whole equation.

1. Number of overhauls done in this engine and the size of the pistons (whether it's standard, 0.25 / 0.50 or etc)

2. Condition of the cyinder bore and the pistons specially the pistons to see whether there are any damages. Since you said it was very worn engine, there can possibly be damages in the pistons due to slapping of pistons.

3. Amount you going to spend on the spares, say if you're to put sleeves, yes it should be of good quality, else the new sleeve will wear out faster than the re-bored cylinder bore.

I'd say, dismantle the engine first, without trying to freeze the plan/methodology with a known budget. Then decide what's best.

if the pistons are of standard size and of good quality, that means no burn marks, no damages, no visible hairline cracks on around the gudgen pin area, yes you can re-use them. I would advise you to proceed with a caution as old/used pistons tend to get damaged when you put up with new sleeves.

Also, if you're planning to keep the vehicle for prolonged period, better to go for a re-boring with new set of pistons as you will have new everything inside and the bore is still with solid original material that the engine block is made out. You never know the quality of the aftermarket sleeves available. Further, you will gain a slight increase in CC as re-bored cylinder will have slightly more capacity than the original one.

the downside of re-boring is you will have to depend on the quality of the place where you get the lathe work done and if you get it done through professionals who does fairly good volumes.

on a side note, I've gained better results by just replacing the rings without changing anything except gasket and seals and t-belt. That 1C engine lasted for more than 3 years daily driving till the next full overhaul.

Thanks a lot. Actually engine has the original pistons and it s never been bored/sleeved.

From what I understand by your posts, the cylinders are just carved from the engine block and there are no sleeves originally in the engine, and putting new sleeves mean just put a metal cylinder (so called sleeve) into the existing block right ? or am I missing something ?

Also do we have to machine the new sleeve , if we are going for re-sleeving than boring ?

[harshansenadhir]

  On 2/14/2012 at 9:09 AM, Amila G said:

From what I understand by your posts, the cylinders are just carved from the engine block and there are no sleeves originally in the engine, and putting new sleeves mean just put a metal cylinder (so called sleeve) into the existing block right ? or am I missing something ? Also do we have to machine the new sleeve , if we are going for re-sleeving than boring ?

There are sleeves although you cannot distinguish easily in this 2C engine. ( there are some designs where you can easily take off the entire sleeve and there's a hollow space between block and the sleeve for cooling purposes) it is not carved from the engine block, but that is the original sleeve which you cannot match the build quality in aftermarket sleeves is what I'm trying to elaborate.

you don't have to machine the sleeve as long as you get the correct size to match pistons/rings.

[Amila G]

  On 2/14/2012 at 10:02 AM, harshansenadhir said:

There are sleeves although you cannot distinguish easily in this 2C engine. ( there are some designs where you can easily take off the entire sleeve and there's a hollow space between block and the sleeve for cooling purposes) it is not carved from the engine block, but that is the original sleeve which you cannot match the build quality in aftermarket sleeves is what I'm trying to elaborate.

you don't have to machine the sleeve as long as you get the correct size to match pistons/rings.

Got it thanks, will keep this info on hand deciding the fate of the van

[oshad]

If I do remember right it was just the sleeves approach I got done.. And yes the exhaust is a wonder now with no smoke at all unless a rare bit in the mornings when the engine is quite cold.. Consumption wise there was no change for me.. mind you after smoke also depends on calibrating the diesel pump as well and we had to tweak that to get to the no smoke at all point.

On the other hand a person known to me opted for a recon 2C for around 165k and spared all the hassle.. It was a 2c with the top head injection version ( Noah version) and the van works like a charm... What I've heard is no amount of overhauling in SL get the engine gets back to the optimum original specs for some reason ( I might be quite wrong here) and its maybe better to go for a well selected used engine and jst swap

[Nilantha]

  On 2/14/2012 at 7:29 AM, Amila G said:

Guys we have a townace CR27 with a very worn 2C engine and was thinking of an overhaul.

Up to now I thought an overhaul on this engine means re boring the engine block, use new pistons, rings and so... and would cost north of 100K

But a good mech I know suggested that I can remove the old sleves and put new ones in + put new piston rings and it' only cost about 40k.

I actually did not know that a 2C engine had sleeves in the block and can be swapped like that instead of a re boring and using new pistons + rings ?

Is it a good thing to swap the sleeves or is he trying to rip me ? Btw if it s possible why everyone spend 100k on a rebuid ?

I'm quite puzzled and any help is highly appreciated.

well, good question. i will tel you good story about 2C engine overhaul.

i have Toyota Townace CR41 with 2C power. when i buy the vehicle it was over 300k but body was good so i bought. it is manual gear one. when i buy the vehicle the engine was brand new as it is but totally finish. lot of ppl told me to replace the engine with 3C turbo second hand engine. but some ppl told me to repair the engine. any how i decided to repair the engine without taking the used engine risk. for repair i did following,

1. take engine down

2. unfix the engine

3. bass told me to take in to Edirisinghe brothers

4. boring the engine fix slives size 25

5. piston was damaged so i replace pistons with "ALPIN" pistons (ALPIN Pistons are expensive other than normal pistons (size 25). i bought 4 ALPIN postons for

Rs.9,500 from Wijerama, in Edirisinghe brothers it was 14,000/-)

6. replace all bairings,

7. replace valve seats

8. replace valvs

9. replace oil pump

10. replace Genuine piston rings (15,500/- from toyota lanka)

11. use genuine overhaul kit from Wejerama - price around 19,000/- with genuine gasket

12. replace genuine Timming belt and made in japan Adjuster bearings cost around 18,000/-

13 replace all drive belts

14. service the starter mortor and replace bairings,

15. service and replace barings and brush set of the alternator

16. replace Injectors (Denso) and service and calibrate the Injector pump cost was 11,000/-

17. replace Radiator cooling fan clutch with recon one.

18. replace Engine mounts cost was 15,000/- genuine from Toyota lanka.

finally totaly cost was 150k including 20k bass charges.

cont.................

Edited February 15, 2012 by Nilantha

[Nilantha]

after run 10,000 km engine was badly vibrating and with black smoke. but i pass the green test and test guys told me engine is in very good condition. but lot of black smoke and vibration. i return to the bass and he told me to go to injector pump service garage. the injector pump bass told me to replace the engine mount. i told him i replaced engine mount with genuine ones. so again he pressure the injectors and fixed and problem not solved. i return to my engine repaired bass and told him the situation. he told me this vibration is normal for diesel engine. but i was everyday running the van with black smoke and vibration. so bas wan not be able to fix that fault. i had a question if engine new how come this black smoke and vibration.

when come to engine around 15,000km there was knock sound also comming from one piston. so i show this to many garages and many diesel baas all told me this is normal situation of the diesel engine.

when i was showing this to garages suddenly met one of my class mate. i told him the situation and he is a technical guy. he told me to take the vehicle to his home one day.

so i took the van there. do you know what he did?

1. when he check the injector pump the bas keep the injector pump maximum advance position. my class mate took that injector pump to normal position. (retard)

2. there is a screw on the injector pump to adjust the diesel inflow to the injector pump. he close the screw (reduced the diesel coming in to injector pump)

3. also he check the tappet clearance and keep them to 25

please note:- most old bass don't know how to keep the tappet clearance of the 2C engine. there is special tool to adjust the tappet clearance. also there is 25, 30, 40 sizes "Sims" have to use for keep tappet clearance. most technetions don't know how to adjust the tappet clearance of the 2C engine.

### most impotent thing is the engine over hole of the 2c engine is use the GENUIN piston Ring set and the keep tappet clearance using only required size "Sims" ###

after tuning the engine by my class mate now its running like petrol engine.

1. less noise

2. less vibration

3. no black smoke any time any load

4. very good fuel economy

but remember i am using VIC oil, air & Diesel filters and change oil very 3500km,. also use DS40 ceypetco

Edited February 15, 2012 by Nilantha

[Amila G]

  On 2/15/2012 at 6:27 PM, Nilantha said:

well, good question. i will tel you good story about 2C engine overhaul.

Nilantha, thanks a lot for your detailed reply. By the way I saw that you have re-bored the engine and put new sleeves in could you explain a bit that why you needed to put new sleeves ? Wasn't the re-boring enough to fix the engine ?

Or else did they phased out the old sleeve by boring and put a new one in ?

The alpin pistons you used, are they larger than the original size or same as the original size ?

[Nilantha]

when you buy engine brand new it is no have sleeves (but big engines have slives) it has the engine body with size 25 (standerd size). when it warned out you have to re-bore it to 50 and you have to use size 50 pistons and ring set. next time you can re-bore it to 75 and you can use 75 size pistons and rings. after 75 you have boor it and have to put 25 (standers size) sleeves and you can use 25 size pistons and rings.

but when you go to first time overhaul if the engine warn out badly, if you want to re-bore it to size 75 better you re-bore the engine and put 25 sleeves and you can use existing 25 pistons if they are good.

ALPIN is piston model. its hard than normal pistons and light weight. ALPIN also have 25, 50 and 75 size

[Amila G]

  On 2/16/2012 at 5:28 PM, Nilantha said:

when you buy engine brand new it is no have sleeves (but big engines have slives) it has the engine body with size 25 (standerd size). when it warned out you have to re-bore it to 50 and you have to use size 50 pistons and ring set. next time you can re-bore it to 75 and you can use 75 size pistons and rings. after 75 you have boor it and have to put 25 (standers size) sleeves and you can use 25 size pistons and rings.

but when you go to first time overhaul if the engine warn out badly, if you want to re-bore it to size 75 better you re-bore the engine and put 25 sleeves and you can use existing 25 pistons if they are good.

ALPIN is piston model. its hard than normal pistons and light weight. ALPIN also have 25, 50 and 75 size

Thanks mate

[terrabytetango]

Our second rebuild cost us close to 100k as well.

[Amila G]

  On 2/17/2012 at 8:51 AM, terrabytetango said:

Our second rebuild cost us close to 100k as well.

Did it include sleeves or just bore out the block and put new pistons ?

[varunatech]

  On 2/15/2012 at 7:04 PM, Nilantha said:

after run 10,000 km engine was badly vibrating and with black smoke. but i pass the green test and test guys told me engine is in very good condition. but lot of black smoke and vibration. i return to the bass and he told me to go to injector pump service garage. the injector pump bass told me to replace the engine mount. i told him i replaced engine mount with genuine ones. so again he pressure the injectors and fixed and problem not solved. i return to my engine repaired bass and told him the situation. he told me this vibration is normal for diesel engine. but i was everyday running the van with black smoke and vibration. so bas wan not be able to fix that fault. i had a question if engine new how come this black smoke and vibration. when come to engine around 15,000km there was knock sound also comming from one piston. so i show this to many garages and many diesel baas all told me this is normal situation of the diesel engine. when i was showing this to garages suddenly met one of my class mate. i told him the situation and he is a technical guy. he told me to take the vehicle to his home one day. so i took the van there. do you know what he did? 1. when he check the injector pump the bas keep the injector pump maximum advance position. my class mate took that injector pump to normal position. (retard) 2. there is a screw on the injector pump to adjust the diesel inflow to the injector pump. he close the screw (reduced the diesel coming in to injector pump) 3. also he check the tappet clearance and keep them to 25 please note:- most old bass don't know how to keep the tappet clearance of the 2C engine. there is special tool to adjust the tappet clearance. also there is 25, 30, 40 sizes "Sims" have to use for keep tappet clearance. most technetions don't know how to adjust the tappet clearance of the 2C engine. ### most impotent thing is the engine over hole of the 2c engine is use the GENUIN piston Ring set and the keep tappet clearance using only required size "Sims" ### after tuning the engine by my class mate now its running like petrol engine. 1. less noise 2. less vibration 3. no black smoke any time any load 4. very good fuel economy but remember i am using VIC oil, air & Diesel filters and change oil very 3500km,. also use DS40 ceypetco

Good detailed post, I believe will help others a lot...................

[terrabytetango]

  On 2/17/2012 at 8:59 AM, Amila G said:

Did it include sleeves or just bore out the block and put new pistons ?

We used sleeves both times, replaced pistons first time only, second time around the sleeves wore prematurely while the pistons were good. It was a manufacturing defect of the sleeves and several vehicles had returned for re-sleeving.