What To Do After An Accident?

SeanD · February 18, 2008

Hi guys I know this subject has been addressed off an on in different topics but i couldnt find a topic dedicated specially to this, so thought it would be helpful to find out:

What are the procedures to follow in the event of an accident on SL roads (assuming there are no injured parties and damage is only to the cars)? Some people ask for you to show your license when its not even your fault etc., is this valid (three wheel drivers tend to do this a lot i think)? Should you give out your details or just call the police or insurance? If calling the insurance do you need to call the police as well? etc.

Thought it would be good for people to give their experiences/tips etc. specially if you're more knowledgeable of the law.

Az · February 18, 2008

3-wheel drivers tend to turn abusive and start demanding money even if it is there fault(which is the case 99% of the time). In such instances, it is best to insist that you go to the police station to sort things out. Believe me, they will insist that there is no need to do that, but firmly insist so.

Ripper · February 18, 2008

Az said:
3-wheel drivers tend to turn abusive and start demanding money even if it is there fault(which is the case 99% of the time). In such instances, it is best to insist that you go to the police station to sort things out. Believe me, they will insist that there is no need to do that, but firmly insist so.

Yep... whichever way going to the cops would be da best thing IMHO...

sometimes the damage is so little for both parties so they can collectively decide how they want to take things... The little scrapes and minor bumps i've had with others have always being resolved like this to avoid the hassle of getting cops involved...

But if the damage is a little more than you can wax off etc...it's always good to take the case to the cops...

Since most of us carry digi cams...it might be useful to take a few pics that will help to judge who's at fault etc...

I think that is better than just marking wheel positions on the road

Better to sort out things at the cops shed before getting the insurance folks involved...

But it all depends on how you want to take it forward... some don't like the hassle getting cops into it so they like to settle things off on the spot...

If you're ok to do that...guess that's fine...

But i'd go through the whole cop hassle to fry the other bugger if he's the culprit :lol: especially if they are trishaw buggers and bus buggers :lol:

Iroshana · February 22, 2008

Ripper said:
Yep... whichever way going to the cops would be da best thing IMHO...
sometimes the damage is so little for both parties so they can collectively decide how they want to take things... The little scrapes and minor bumps i've had with others have always being resolved like this to avoid the hassle of getting cops involved...

But if the damage is a little more than you can wax off etc...it's always good to take the case to the cops...

Since most of us carry digi cams...it might be useful to take a few pics that will help to judge who's at fault etc...

I think that is better than just marking wheel positions on the road

Better to sort out things at the cops shed before getting the insurance folks involved...

But it all depends on how you want to take it forward... some don't like the hassle getting cops into it so they like to settle things off on the spot...

If you're ok to do that...guess that's fine...

But i'd go through the whole cop hassle to fry the other bugger if he's the culprit especially if they are trishaw buggers and bus buggers

I think its better to take action in an accident as soon as possible it occurs. If the damage is high and youre not guilty for the accident, do not spend time to negotiate with the other driver. Just ask him once and decide whether going to cops or clame the damage from insurance without cops involved. Because I had a very bad experience in this.

I had an accident when I was riding my bike at Malabe. I was riding very slow speed (probably less than 40Kmph) at about 2130hrs. One car parked infront of a shop suddenly made a U-turn when I was about 5 meters to the car. I had no time to stop the bike and It collided making damages to the drivers door of the car and denting my front fork and damaging my head lights. Everybody who has seen the accident were blaming to the car driver and everybody asked me to call cops. But I asked him whether he like to come for a settlement because I can manager my repairs with my insurance and I asked him to manage his repairs from his insurance. He agreed with me to do so because he is guilty for the accident. Everybody pushed him to agree with me whatever I ask. Then we called our insurance people.

My insurance guy came to the place after about an hour. It was around 2245hrs and nobody were around. Once my insurance guy came to the place car driver started to blame on me and he was asking me to pay his damages. He told me that I'm the one who made the mistake. He was trying to say that I came with very high speed and I was not able to control the bike and collided with his car. I was really surprised. Nobody were there for evidence. My insurance guy asked me to call to cops as soon as possible. Because he understood what has happen. Then I called cops. Fortunately the cops came to the place understood what has happen. Then they pushed the car driver to repair my bike and asked me to not to claim it from my insurance.

Finally he paid my garage bill after repairs.

My opinion is to take the action as soon as accident occurs if there are any evidence to prove youre not guilty for the accident.

-Iroshana

Ripper · February 22, 2008

Iroshana said:
I think its better to take action in an accident as soon as possible it occurs. If the damage is high and youre not guilty for the accident, do not spend time to negotiate with the other driver. Just ask him once and decide whether going to cops or clame the damage from insurance without cops involved. Because I had a very bad experience in this.
I had an accident when I was riding my bike at Malabe. I was riding very slow speed (probably less than 40Kmph) at about 2130hrs. One car parked infront of a shop suddenly made a U-turn when I was about 5 meters to the car. I had no time to stop the bike and It collided making damages to the drivers door of the car and denting my front fork and damaging my head lights. Everybody who has seen the accident were blaming to the car driver and everybody asked me to call cops. But I asked him whether he like to come for a settlement because I can manager my repairs with my insurance and I asked him to manage his repairs from his insurance. He agreed with me to do so because he is guilty for the accident. Everybody pushed him to agree with me whatever I ask. Then we called our insurance people.

My insurance guy came to the place after about an hour. It was around 2245hrs and nobody were around. Once my insurance guy came to the place car driver started to blame on me and he was asking me to pay his damages. He told me that I'm the one who made the mistake. He was trying to say that I came with very high speed and I was not able to control the bike and collided with his car. I was really surprised. Nobody were there for evidence. My insurance guy asked me to call to cops as soon as possible. Because he understood what has happen. Then I called cops. Fortunately the cops came to the place understood what has happen. Then they pushed the car driver to repair my bike and asked me to not to claim it from my insurance.

Finally he paid my garage bill after repairs.

My opinion is to take the action as soon as accident occurs if there are any evidence to prove youre not guilty for the accident.

-Iroshana

very true... i've had somewhat similar experiences after crashing into a suicidal drunkard on my mtx200 few years back...

after going to the cop shed those guys changed there story and thanks to smart cops who figured out what happened after taking measurements etc from the scene i was off the hook

one of those rare incidents where traffic cops are the heroes of the day

Arc Angel · February 22, 2008

this is true... but some guys don't back down even at the cop shed, and insist we take it to court... this is just not worth it... I had a bump in the back some time back by a guy who was on thewrong side trying to overtake me (his left headlamp on my right brake light)... he immediately moved his van... I was frothing mad so I kinda spoke to him aggressively... He agreed to come to the cops with me... On the way there, this snivering weasel saw a cop bike and stopped to talk to him. luckily I also saw this and stopped. When I got there he was telling the cop a total sob story bout how innocent he was, the cop looked at me like 'you idiot'... I kept quiet until the time he asked to see the vehicles... then the cop realised who was at fault..

still, I can't bear the 'wonderful' judicial system in sri lanka, so I didn't want to take it to court.. the dude agreed to pay my no-claim bonus.

You need to stand your ground if your not at fault, but only to a point where you don't end up being the one going through hell...

pissa · February 22, 2008

majority of drivers in SL are so bloody selfish, inconsiderate, indisciplined etc etc etc etc....

there have been so many times, i wished i carried an iron rod of some sort in my boot to take out and beat the crap out of these morons...

Edited February 22, 2008 by pissa

Ripper · February 22, 2008

Arc Angel said:
You need to stand your ground if your not at fault, but only to a point where you don't end up being the one going through hell...

well said AA

Ripper · February 22, 2008

pissa said:
majority of drivers in SL are so bloody selfish, inconsiderate, indisciplined etc etc etc etc....
there have been so many times, i wished i carried an iron rod of some sort in my boot to take out and beat the crap out of these morons...

I imagine having a bazooka and the blowing off the MF*****

now thanks to an improved on board entertainment cum anger management system...i'm much more chilled out

seeker · February 22, 2008

SeanD said:
Hi guys I know this subject has been addressed off an on in different topics but i couldnt find a topic dedicated specially to this, so thought it would be helpful to find out:
What are the procedures to follow in the event of an accident on SL roads (assuming there are no injured parties and damage is only to the cars)? Some people ask for you to show your license when its not even your fault etc., is this valid (three wheel drivers tend to do this a lot i think)? Should you give out your details or just call the police or insurance? If calling the insurance do you need to call the police as well? etc.

Thought it would be good for people to give their experiences/tips etc. specially if you're more knowledgeable of the law.

Check this link out, if you are interested in the legal version:

http://www.police.lk/divisions/traffic_act...to_be_taken.asp

Iroshana · February 22, 2008

seeker said:
Check this link out, if you are interested in the legal version:
http://www.police.lk/divisions/traffic_act...to_be_taken.asp

Its very useful. Thanks for sharing. Actually I didn't know our police has a web site :lol:

seeker · February 22, 2008

Iroshana said:
Its very useful. Thanks for sharing. Actually I didn't know our police has a web site

Ha! the guys are high tech now..... it won't be long before we'll be asked to bribe the speed cops online.......

xXx · February 22, 2008

Iroshana said:
I think its better to take action in an accident as soon as possible it occurs. If the damage is high and youre not guilty for the accident, do not spend time to negotiate with the other driver. Just ask him once and decide whether going to cops or clame the damage from insurance without cops involved. Because I had a very bad experience in this.
I had an accident when I was riding my bike at Malabe. I was riding very slow speed (probably less than 40Kmph) at about 2130hrs. One car parked infront of a shop suddenly made a U-turn when I was about 5 meters to the car. I had no time to stop the bike and It collided making damages to the drivers door of the car and denting my front fork and damaging my head lights. Everybody who has seen the accident were blaming to the car driver and everybody asked me to call cops. But I asked him whether he like to come for a settlement because I can manager my repairs with my insurance and I asked him to manage his repairs from his insurance. He agreed with me to do so because he is guilty for the accident. Everybody pushed him to agree with me whatever I ask. Then we called our insurance people.

My insurance guy came to the place after about an hour. It was around 2245hrs and nobody were around. Once my insurance guy came to the place car driver started to blame on me and he was asking me to pay his damages. He told me that I'm the one who made the mistake. He was trying to say that I came with very high speed and I was not able to control the bike and collided with his car. I was really surprised. Nobody were there for evidence. My insurance guy asked me to call to cops as soon as possible. Because he understood what has happen. Then I called cops. Fortunately the cops came to the place understood what has happen. Then they pushed the car driver to repair my bike and asked me to not to claim it from my insurance.

Finally he paid my garage bill after repairs.

My opinion is to take the action as soon as accident occurs if there are any evidence to prove youre not guilty for the accident.

-Iroshana

why on earth did you agree to claim for your repairs from your insurer. if its his fault his insurer have to pay for your damages. that's why it's mandatory to have at least a 3rd party insurance before legally using a vehicle.

IMO if the accident is minor settle it then and there. if its a major accident its always wise and economical to get your insurer involved. if you don't have a 'on the spot' insurance policy you have no option but to get the cops involved. as someone said earlier use those camera phones and take lots of pictures.

Iroshana · February 23, 2008

xXx said:
why on earth did you agree to claim for your repairs from your insurer. if its his fault his insurer have to pay for your damages. that's why it's mandatory to have at least a 3rd party insurance before legally using a vehicle.
IMO if the accident is minor settle it then and there. if its a major accident its always wise and economical to get your insurer involved. if you don't have a 'on the spot' insurance policy you have no option but to get the cops involved. as someone said earlier use those camera phones and take lots of pictures.

Reason is the insurance guy said if I'm gonna claim damage from other guys insurer, both we have to go to courts and prove that i'm not responsible for the incident. Cops told me both of us required to keep our vehicles at the cops station until we get the solution from courts.

I didnt want to make it more complecated since i'm not loosing my money. Its either from my insurer or the other guys money. However finally what happen is the other guy paid my garage bill from his pocket because he cannot claim it from his insurer without going to courts.

SeanD · May 6, 2016

Hi all

As it has been about 8 years since I first posted this, bumping it in the event any member can post the complete 'action steps' given the deteriorating situation on our roads, this could be very helpful.

Shack · May 10, 2016

Met with an accident? here's what you got to do (Assuming there are no casualties).

* Immediately inform your insurer!!!

Make sure to save the hotline number of your insurer in mobile.

* Inform the accident to the nearest police station (In my own experience, Keep this as the last resort!)

Traffic law of the country says that you should immediately inform the accident to the nearest police station BUT as we all know, This has it own pros & cons.Call cops only if it is necessary (If you happen to move the vehicles to avoid traffic better inform the cops and get the permission first)

* You're at fault and the other party demand the claim on the spot

Never pay anything out of your pocket even if the accident caused due to YOUR fault - After all, that's why you are insured for!. If the other person insist you to pay the damages telling about all the no claim bonus stories, You're just bound to pay for physical damages which your insurer will perfectly cover for.If the other party needs anything more than that then there's no solution than seeking the assistance of court of law.If you happen to face a similar scenario calling cops is a MUST!. (You can't proceed with the matter without a police entry). Always remember this can be vice versa as well!

* You are at fault and the other party willing to repair on his/her own

Neither party should leave the accident location until the insurer's arrive for assessment. If either one of your move then the insurer will definitely ask you to lodge a police entry and claim on the normal procedure which is a real hassle. If both parties come in to an amicable settlement then it should be written on a piece of paper and signed by both drivers.Remember to include NIC/DL/Full name of both drivers in the content.

* Settling third party claims through your insurer

If both vehicles are having comprehensive insurance policies from the same insurer then there's a high chance of settling the matter on site without proceeding the matter to courts. Most of the companies are practicing this in SL.If you are at fault and you agree to pay the claim to the other party from your insurance, you can give the consent to the assessor who visit the site and he will do the needful.Most of the people DO NOT know this and the insurance companies are also not promoting same since they can't judge who's at fault after an accident.

If the vehicles are insured with two different insures then its going to be a wild ride.Formalities to follow given below,

a.) Inform the accident to the nearest police and lodge an entry

b.) Police will take the case to courts and if a driver accept the fault a penalty will apply mentioning the cause. (Ex: Not avoiding an accident,reckless driving etc etc)

c.) If you want to claim the damages to your vehicle from the other party, Then you should file a separate civil case against the other driver. Most of the insurance companies will entertain a third party claim only if the verdict is heard and given by a DISTRICT court!

d.) Duration to settle the matter: Can take 5,6 months and over (Decide on the number of times the case is heard and all)

* If your vehicle is old for more than 10 years..

Most insurer's will apply penalties (Age excess as they call it) if your vehicle is old for more than 10 years. This can start with a basic of Rs.1000/- onwards.

(Contents are based on my experience. Some people may have different views about what i have posted)

Edited May 10, 2016 by Shack

Quiet · May 10, 2016

you can always kill the bugger who hit your car go happily on your way. no insurance needed.

Shack · May 10, 2016

On 5/10/2016 at 7:17 AM, Quiet said:
you can always kill the bugger who hit your car go happily on your way. no insurance needed.

You belong here bro!

Crosswind · May 10, 2016

On 5/10/2016 at 7:03 AM, Shack said:
Met with an accident? here's what you got to do (Assuming there are no casualties).
* Immediately inform your insurer!!!

Make sure to save the hotline number of your insurer in mobile.

* Inform the accident to the nearest police station (In my own experience, Keep this as the last resort!)

Traffic law of the country says that you should immediately inform the accident to the nearest police station BUT as we all know, This has it own pros & cons.Call cops only if it is necessary (If you happen to move the vehicles to avoid traffic better inform the cops and get the permission first)

* You're at fault and the other party demand the claim on the spot

Never pay anything out of your pocket even if the accident caused due to YOUR fault - After all, that's why you are insured for!. If the other person insist you to pay the damages telling about all the no claim bonus stories, You're just bound to pay for physical damages which your insurer will perfectly cover for.If the other party needs anything more than that then there's no solution than seeking the assistance of court of law.If you happen to face a similar scenario calling cops is a MUST!. (You can't proceed with the matter without a police entry). Always remember this can be vice versa as well!

* You are at fault and the other party willing to repair on his/her own

Neither party should leave the accident location until the insurer's arrive for assessment. If either one of your move then the insurer will definitely ask you to lodge a police entry and claim on the normal procedure which is a real hassle. If both parties come in to an amicable settlement then it should be written on a piece of paper and signed by both drivers.Remember to include NIC/DL/Full name of both drivers in the content.

* Settling third party claims through your insurer

If both vehicles are having comprehensive insurance policies from the same insurer then there's a high chance of settling the matter on site without proceeding the matter to courts. Most of the companies are practicing this in SL.If you are at fault and you agree to pay the claim to the other party from your insurance, you can give the consent to the assessor who visit the site and he will do the needful.Most of the people DO NOT know this and the insurance companies are also not promoting same since they can't judge who's at fault after an accident.

If the vehicles are insured with two different insures then its going to be a wild ride.Formalities to follow given below,

a.) Inform the accident to the nearest police and lodge an entry

b.) Police will take the case to courts and if a driver accept the fault a penalty will apply mentioning the cause. (Ex: Not avoiding an accident,reckless driving etc etc)

c.) If you want to claim the damages to your vehicle from the other party, Then you should file a separate civil case against the other driver. Most of the insurance companies will entertain a third party claim only if the verdict is heard and given by a DISTRICT court!

d.) Duration to settle the matter: Can take 5,6 months and over (Decide on the number of times the case is heard and all)

* If your vehicle is old for more than 10 years..

Most insurer's will apply penalties (Age excess as they call it) if your vehicle is old for more than 10 years. This can start with a basic of Rs.1000/- onwards.

(Contents are based on my experience. Some people may have different views about what i have posted)

1. Wrong. Informing the police should come first. You are legally obliged to do so

2. No this is not the last resort. This is the first thing you should do. Even if its a minor damage. There are too many CCTVs around nowadays. You may face legal issues. It's the law!

3. Unless there's human injury, you can actually move the vehicles AFTER marking the tyre locations on the road. Despite educating drivers about this, very rarely people follow this. People ALWAYS stop the vehicles in the middle of the road and be a nuisance to others.

4. You are at fault or not, if the other party demands damages from you - you need to follow the third party claim process. If you call cops, they will usually take the side of the person who is not at fault (unless that's a politician or someone above the law).

Shack · May 10, 2016

On 5/10/2016 at 9:57 AM, Crosswind said:
1. Wrong. Informing the police should come first. You are legally obliged to do so
2. No this is not the last resort. This is the first thing you should do. Even if its a minor damage. There are too many CCTVs around nowadays. You may face legal issues. It's the law!

3. Unless there's human injury, you can actually move the vehicles AFTER marking the tyre locations on the road. Despite educating drivers about this, very rarely people follow this. People ALWAYS stop the vehicles in the middle of the road and be a nuisance to others.

4. You are at fault or not, if the other party demands damages from you - you need to follow the third party claim process. If you call cops, they will usually take the side of the person who is not at fault (unless that's a politician or someone above the law).

1. Wrong. Informing the police should come first. You are legally obliged to do so
2. No this is not the last resort. This is the first thing you should do. Even if its a minor damage. There are too many CCTVs around nowadays. You may face legal issues. It's the law!

3. Unless there's human injury, you can actually move the vehicles AFTER marking the tyre locations on the road. Despite educating drivers about this, very rarely people follow this. People ALWAYS stop the vehicles in the middle of the road and be a nuisance to others.

4. You are at fault or not, if the other party demands damages from you - you need to follow the third party claim process. If you call cops, they will usually take the side of the person who is not at fault (unless that's a politician or someone above the law).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I wonder how many motor accidents are reporting to police on a daily basis considering the number of accidents that are seen & settled on site by the insurers!

When you have the option to amicably settle things on site who would dare to report same to police and then get fined! I understand its the law but here I'm talking about the practical scenario.

Third party claim process doesn't necessarily mean that you have to report to police and end up in courts. Like I've mentioned before if the insurer is same, Most of the insurance companies honor third party claims without legal procedures.

Anyways, I respect the views of others!

Edited May 10, 2016 by Shack

Vengeance · May 10, 2016

On 5/10/2016 at 10:37 AM, Shack said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I wonder how many motor accidents are reporting to police on a daily basis considering the number of accidents that are seen & settled on site by the insurers!

When you have the option to amicably settle things on site who would dare to report same to police and then get fined! I understand its the law but here I'm talking about the practical scenario.

Third party claim process doesn't necessarily mean that you have to report to police and end up in courts. Like I've mentioned before if the insurer is same, Most of the insurance companies honor third party claims without legal procedures.

Anyways, I respect the views of others!

Wrong, insurance companies don't honor third party claims unless the court ordered them to do so, I confirmed this from SL*C when I got my insurance.

Take my word for it, insurance companies will try their level best to avoid paying you or the other party for any damage caused irrespective of whether you have a premium or 3rd party insurance.

Shack · May 13, 2016

Wrong, insurance companies don't honor third party claims unless the court ordered them to do so, I confirmed this from SL*C when I got my insurance.
Take my word for it, insurance companies will try their level best to avoid paying you or the other party for any damage caused irrespective of whether you have a premium or 3rd party insurance.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Too bad you had the vehicle insured at S L I C! If it was c******o or U A L they would (If both vehicles are carrying a comprehensive insurance only)

Crosswind · May 13, 2016

On 5/10/2016 at 10:37 AM, Shack said:
I wonder how many motor accidents are reporting to police on a daily basis considering the number of accidents that are seen & settled on site by the insurers!
When you have the option to amicably settle things on site who would dare to report same to police and then get fined! I understand its the law but here I'm talking about the practical scenario.

Third party claim process doesn't necessarily mean that you have to report to police and end up in courts. Like I've mentioned before if the insurer is same, Most of the insurance companies honor third party claims without legal procedures.

Anyways, I respect the views of others!

It's not a view. It's the law. That's what you should understand here. You can 'amicably' settle things with the other party but you can get in to trouble for not reporting an accident to police and also did you know that the guy can go to police later and complain for breach of trust? You will only get fined if its your fault.

When it comes to a point of law, views don't mean anything. You need to stop writing false info on autolanka. This will last forever and will get some poor guy in to trouble.

Vengeance · May 13, 2016

On 5/13/2016 at 9:04 AM, Shack said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Too bad you had the vehicle insured at S L I C! If it was c******o or U A L they would (If both vehicles are carrying a comprehensive insurance only)

SL*C had a slightly higher reputation in terms of user reviews the last time I checked, please check the "Insurance" thread on AL and you'll know. Okay now don't get me wrong, I'm in no way trying to promote SL*C here and every insurance company has their pros/cons.

Didn't you understand what I said? Its obvious that insurance companies will pay you if you have a comprehensive insurance. That's the whole point of having a full insurance, isn't it?

What I said was that to get paid via a 3rd party insurance from the opposition, you have to go to courts (that means involving the cops) and the insurance company will only pay you if the court orders them to. In simple, insurance companies do NOT honor 3rd party claims unless the court/police is involved.

Shack · May 16, 2016

On 5/13/2016 at 9:27 AM, Crosswind said:
It's not a view. It's the law. That's what you should understand here. You can 'amicably' settle things with the other party but you can get in to trouble for not reporting an accident to police and also did you know that the guy can go to police later and complain for breach of trust? You will only get fined if its your fault.
When it comes to a point of law, views don't mean anything. You need to stop writing false info on autolanka. This will last forever and will get some poor guy in to trouble.

Law is to report every accident to the nearest police station and there's no two words about it. In my original post I’ve clearly mentioned that things I wrote is purely based on my experience, having worked at a general insurance company for 8+ years I know things better when it comes to claim settlements/procedures.

No customers were fined during my career for not reporting an accident to police if the same accident was inspected at the location by the insurer (No casualties or 3^rd party damages). Even police encourage amicable settlements when they find people are arguing over accidents.

There's no FALSE in what I’ve shared.It is what happening practically!

Edited May 16, 2016 by Shack