Should I Be Worried: Engine Sludge (symptoms)

AMG · February 24, 2009

vitz said:
This is what i see after removing the engine oil filling cap. Bharath, Az, did you guys observed the same thing.
Bharath, you are correct, the engine oil doesnot reach that far. So... what is then this stain, is it a deposition from the vapour of oil?.

http://img24.imageshack.us/my.php?image=enginex.jpg

I had similar but a bit lower than you as may be my engine was only one year old when I saw the deposit. But still you don’t need to worry as if you really want to see if there is sludge you have to see a part where the oil usually flow. The deposits of the new oil and tiny spray drops of the oil when the engine is revving getting dried and looks like this as there is no way to clean this part as the oil doesn’t flow through this area. It will be no harm if you take it to the dealer and check whether there is a Sludge. But my opinion is, it's not a sludge.

VVTi · February 24, 2009

Bharath said:
I had similar but a bit lower than you as may be my engine was only one year old when I saw the deposit. But still you don’t need to worry as if you really want to see if there is sludge you have to see a part where the oil usually flow. The deposits of the new oil and tiny spray drops of the oil when the engine is revving getting dried and looks like this as there is no way to clean this part as the oil doesn’t flow through this area. It will be no harm if you take it to the dealer and check whether there is a Sludge. But my opinion is, it's not a sludge.

This was discussed 2 years back with the same outcome.....

http://forum.autolanka.com/lofiversion....php?t4211.html

vitz · February 24, 2009

Thanks guys for sharing your experiences and knowledge with me. Your experiences worth thousand times more than the advices of technicians.

As VVTi already mentioned, I'll let the engine to do its business with proper care. Since, the oil pressure lamp of my car go off just in a split second, I dont think there is any problem related to sludge. For the moment, the engine works really fine and to me it looked that my car has not much been used in Singapore.

I'll update if i face any problem.

Bharath said:
I had similar but a bit lower than you as may be my engine was only one year old when I saw the deposit. But still you don’t need to worry as if you really want to see if there is sludge you have to see a part where the oil usually flow. The deposits of the new oil and tiny spray drops of the oil when the engine is revving getting dried and looks like this as there is no way to clean this part as the oil doesn’t flow through this area. It will be no harm if you take it to the dealer and check whether there is a Sludge. But my opinion is, it's not a sludge.

Ruslan · February 24, 2009

vitz said:
This is what i see after removing the engine oil filling cap. Bharath, Az, did you guys observed the same thing.
Bharath, you are correct, the engine oil doesnot reach that far. So... what is then this stain, is it a deposition from the vapour of oil?.

http://img24.imageshack.us/my.php?image=enginex.jpg

Machan, if you really nervous about this issue. why don't you show this to the agents. they will tell you whether it's normal or not. i think it's wiser and safer to ask advise from agents than others. plus i don't think that they will charge you just to peek into the engine room.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Ruslan

Nilantha · February 24, 2009

vitz said:
This is what i see after removing the engine oil filling cap. Bharath, Az, did you guys observed the same thing.
Bharath, you are correct, the engine oil doesnot reach that far. So... what is then this stain, is it a deposition from the vapour of oil?.

http://img24.imageshack.us/my.php?image=enginex.jpg

Oh my god. Do you think this is normal situation? This is looks like diesel engine head. Give me few days. I will show u how about the clean one looks like. anyway if any one want Lal alawaththta phone number i will give. call and ask him he will tel you his experience.

please read following. sorry i didn't read i am bit busy.

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=137488

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=255109

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/04/automobi...LUDGE.html?_r=1

http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/lofiv...php/t16288.html

http://forums.mg-rover.org/archive/index.php/t-164311.html

http://forums.trinituner.com/forums/archiv...s-134225_20.htm

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.eea225d/4887

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qi...22075611AA1pPUR

Edited February 24, 2009 by Nilantha

AMG · February 24, 2009

Nilantha said:
Oh my god. Do you think this is normal situation? This is looks like diesel engine head. Give me few days. I will show u how about the clean one looks like. anyway if any one want Lal alawaththta phone number i will give. call and ask him he will tel you his experience.

Can you please please read the whole posts again and see there are explanations for why all the Vios engines looks like this.

All the engines don't look the same when you remove the oil cap.

vitz · February 25, 2009

Bro, Since I am living in Kandy, quite difficult to go to colombo and get it checked. I serviced it with kundasale auto works, who are the agents of toyota lanka for central region. Anyhow i will bring it to the agents and get it checked.

Nilantha,,,,,,you are scaring me....do you think that same thing is inside the engine where oil passes through. If so....will the engine work smoothly like i am now experiencing.

regards

Ruslan said:
Machan, if you really nervous about this issue. why don't you show this to the agents. they will tell you whether it's normal or not. i think it's wiser and safer to ask advise from agents than others. plus i don't think that they will charge you just to peek into the engine room.

Supra_Natural · February 25, 2009

vitz said:
Nilantha,,,,,,you are scaring me....do you think that same thing is inside the engine where oil passes through. If so....will the engine work smoothly like i am now experiencing.
regards

Oh I wouldn't worry too much mate, Nilantha has a reputation around here for being the resident Chicken Little (for definition, see below)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sky_Is_Falling_(fable)

But for your peace of mind, why not do that checkup anyway? Always better safe than sorry.

P.S. as for that individual he mentioned in his post.... Well, let's just say the collective opinion AL members have of him is not very high either, so you'd be best advised to avoid going there.

Anyway, let us know how it went

Cheers

Edited February 25, 2009 by Supra_Natural

Nilantha · February 25, 2009

Bharath said:
Can you please please read the whole posts again and see there are explanations for why all the Vios engines looks like this.
All the engines don't look the same when you remove the oil cap.

Specimen 01

this is our 121 Engine Cleaned by agents.

Specimen 03

this is our Vios not clean yet.

Specimen 05

posted by Vitz

now take decision by your self.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Nilantha

vitz · February 25, 2009

Nilantha,,,

Out of my curiosity,,,, How did they clean......

By flushing out using a chemical or by disintegrating whole engine......

Nilantha said:
Specimen 01
this is our 121 Engine Cleaned by agents.

Specimen 03

this is our Vios not clean yet.

Specimen 05

posted by Vitz

now take decision by your self.

milindu · February 25, 2009

Hi Vitz,

The sludge formation only pops up after 100-120k with a 4-5000km oil change intervals (with the standard mineral blend). I suppose you can run for much longer with personal use and shorter intervals.

For what its worth, speak to Ravi at Kundasale (he is quite experienced) and may be just to put your mind at ease...pull out the tappet cover and see if there is any buildup.

vitz · February 25, 2009

Hi Milindu,

Many thanks. Is he attached to Kunxxx auto. Can you give me his number, if possible.

In the next service, I'll get it checked.

regards

milindu said:
Hi Vitz,
The sludge formation only pops up after 100-120k with a 4-5000km oil change intervals (with the standard mineral blend). I suppose you can run for much longer with personal use and shorter intervals.

For what its worth, speak to Ravi at Kundasale (he is quite experienced) and may be just to put your mind at ease...pull out the tappet cover and see if there is any buildup.

jaga · February 26, 2009

According to the photo it looks like the early stage of sludge formation.One of my friends VIOS got the same problem and agent had advised to clean the engine by dismentling and cost around 100000 Rs.

At last he got the engine cleaned by putting some chemicals at LAUGH at Koswatte and run the engine about 5 miniuts and drained the stuff and put new engine oil. He repeated after 2000 km and for last 10 months the machine is working perfectly.The cost was less than 6000 Rs.

Any way take early action.

Basically this problem is common in 121 and VIOS because of less overhead clearence. (All the new engines are thermelly over loaded to reduce un healthy emmisions)

vitz · February 26, 2009

Guys,,,Many thanks for replies...

Today, I went to the dealer from whom I bought my car (2 weeks ago) and checked two other vios cars. Amazingly, none of these vehicles got this brownish staff. That made me really upset. Anyway life is like that......we are always not lucky.

So...the seller was also quite upset about this matter and we took the car to the toyota service station in kandy,,,, apparently it was also closed.

Then, i made call to toyota lanka, colombo, expecting to bring the vehicle there tomorrow. They said that it is an early stage of sludge formation and they need to dismantle the whole engine to clean it (as Jega said). But, also they told that it is okay to use it with oil and filter changes done at every three months.

Also..toyota lanka told that they do not flush the engines.

Since the dealer gave me a 1 year grantee for the engine, I thought to wait till the next service and open the tapat cover and further explore the damage.....

let us hope the that the engine fault light will not appear soon................

Rohnd · February 26, 2009

vitz said:
Guys,,,Many thanks for replies...
Today, I went to the dealer from whom I bought my car (2 weeks ago) and checked two other vios cars. Amazingly, none of these vehicles got this brownish staff. That made me really upset. Anyway life is like that......we are always not lucky.

So...the seller was also quite upset about this matter and we took the car to the toyota service station in kandy,,,, apparently it was also closed.

Then, i made call to toyota lanka, colombo, expecting to bring the vehicle there tomorrow. They said that it is an early stage of sludge formation and they need to dismantle the whole engine to clean it (as Jega said). But, also they told that it is okay to use it with oil and filter changes done at every three months.

Also..toyota lanka told that they do not flush the engines.

Since the dealer gave me a 1 year grantee for the engine, I thought to wait till the next service and open the tapat cover and further explore the damage.....

let us hope the that the engine fault light will not appear soon................

Yes, there are problems with Toyotas on this issue of sludge formation, this type of formation can exist in any other

manufacture's engines as this is solely not a porblem of design of engines. Following are the various factors attribute

to this.

1. Engine design - Engine oil passages running at high or elevated temperatures owing to the designs

2. Severe Service conditions - Short trips , Long ideling periods , stop go stop driving ,heavy loads, High speeds

3. Lubricants used - Some oils contribute to this factor

4. Extended oil drain intervals - for Sri lanka should not exceed 4000 Km on mineral. 3000 Km better.

5. Mechanical Malfunctions - Faluty cooling system , Malfunction of PCV (Positive Crank case Ventilation) System

6. Improper usage of high octane fuel against manufacture's recommendation. - attributes high carbon deposits.

So Vitz, when we see above factors the owner has a role (5/6) to ensure his engine Sludge free rather than the manufacturer. [Why we blame Toyota's design. Yes, Toyota had,also Audi, VW & Saab. Millions went wrong worldwide.]

Other thing is we cannot evaluate the sludge attacks by viewing through oil filling window. Browinsh or yellow colour

patches may not be sludge most of the times. Those are varnishes appaer in lubricatns. You will have to remove the

Head cover for a correct evaluation.

Minor sludge formations can be corrected in the normal run with short oil drain intervals with (say 1000 Km X3 Times)

with lubricants with very good cleaning properties. Major once should be treated with professional attention. No personal methods by individuals should not be entertained as those could lead to engine damages.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Rohnd

GearHead · February 26, 2009

also keep an eye on the red oil bulb in the dash. If you see it flashing once in a while when you are driving the car, then make sure that you dont drive the car anymore till you get the engine cleaned. This is a symptom of sludge buildup affecting the engine oil pressure, and this has been experienced by most of the people before an actual engine faliure. How much did toyota quote for the job? if you dont mind sharing

vitz · February 26, 2009

Many thanks Rohnd and Gearhead for useful comments.

Gearhead!!! rough quotation 25000 rs for workshop charges plus charges for spare parts.

GearHead said:
also keep an eye on the red oil bulb in the dash. If you see it flashing once in a while when you are driving the car, then make sure that you dont drive the car anymore till you get the engine cleaned. This is a symptom of sludge buildup affecting the engine oil pressure, and this has been experienced by most of the people before an actual engine faliure. How much did toyota quote for the job? if you dont mind sharing

Nilantha · February 26, 2009

vitz said:
Guys,,,Many thanks for replies...
Today, I went to the dealer from whom I bought my car (2 weeks ago) and checked two other vios cars. Amazingly, none of these vehicles got this brownish staff. That made me really upset. Anyway life is like that......we are always not lucky.

So...the seller was also quite upset about this matter and we took the car to the toyota service station in kandy,,,, apparently it was also closed.

Then, i made call to toyota lanka, colombo, expecting to bring the vehicle there tomorrow. They said that it is an early stage of sludge formation and they need to dismantle the whole engine to clean it (as Jega said). But, also they told that it is okay to use it with oil and filter changes done at every three months.

Also..toyota lanka told that they do not flush the engines.

Since the dealer gave me a 1 year grantee for the engine, I thought to wait till the next service and open the tapat cover and further explore the damage.....

let us hope the that the engine fault light will not appear soon................

Vitz: now what do u think about that what i was telling you? here some ppl was telling it is normal thing for vios. isn't it? also some ppl are thinking they know all the things correctly. also they are going to advice others.

anyway vitz: you still lucky. yes toyota lanka doing the cleaning dismantle the engine. that is the correct way but if more sludge. if it is little they will use engine flush. try to go to waththala as soon as u can.

vitz · February 26, 2009

Nilantha,,,,

Still I respect the opinions of others. Most of them have experienced it. Nobody got an evidence that the whole engine got busted due to this brownish staff appears in the oil filling area. Yesterday, I even saw another unregistered vios in the same sale got this brownish staff.

Probably, this may not a big issue to be worried. Sometimes knowing bit is also problematic. I think many vios and corollas on the road with the similar issue.

Let us see what will happen in the coming three months. Anyhow, I will remove the tappet cover and get it checked before taking further actions.

thanks

Nilantha said:
Vitz: now what do u think about that what i was telling you? here some ppl was telling it is normal thing for vios. isn't it? also some ppl are thinking they know all the things correctly. also they are going to advice others.
anyway vitz: you still lucky. yes toyota lanka doing the cleaning dismantle the engine. that is the correct way but if more sludge. if it is little they will use engine flush. try to go to waththala as soon as u can.

Rohnd · February 27, 2009

vitz said:
Nilantha,,,,
Still I respect the opinions of others. Most of them have experienced it. Nobody got an evidence that the whole engine got busted due to this brownish staff appears in the oil filling area. Yesterday, I even saw another unregistered vios in the same sale got this brownish staff.

Probably, this may not a big issue to be worried. Sometimes knowing bit is also problematic. I think many vios and corollas on the road with the similar issue.

Let us see what will happen in the coming three months. Anyhow, I will remove the tappet cover and get it checked before taking further actions.

thanks

I think your decision is correct. Please wait and see. Brownish appearance does not indicate always it is sludge.

Open tappet cover and evaluate. Your one may be in first phase of attack since said models are more prone.

Take owner's actions that can deaccelerate the sludge deposits.

I have inserted a link showing a severe sludge attacked engine - head cover open.

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1096/enginesuldge.jpg

Edited February 27, 2009 by Rohnd

vitz · February 27, 2009

Thanks Rohnd,

One more clarification, you mentioned that shorter trips can enhance sludge formation. How it can happen. If somebody daily having short trips (as I am: 4 -5 km oneway), can he minimize the risk by having shorter oil + filter changes done at short intervals, say 3 months...

regards

vitz

Rohnd said:

I think your decision is correct. Please wait and see. Brownish appearance does not indicate always it is sludge.

Open tappet cover and evaluate. Your one may be in first phase of attack since said models are more prone.

Take owner's actions that can deaccelerate the sludge deposits.

I have inserted a link showing a severe sludge attacked engine - head cover open.

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1096/enginesuldge.jpg

[/quotec

AMG · February 27, 2009

vitz said:
Thanks Rohnd,
One more clarification, you mentioned that shorter trips can enhance sludge formation. How it can happen. If somebody daily having short trips (as I am: 4 -5 km oneway), can he minimize the risk by having shorter oil + filter changes done at short intervals, say 3 months...

regards

vitz

Doesn't really matter of how long (km) you drive machan, it's all about stopping the cold engine before it reaches the operating temperature.

AMG · February 27, 2009

Rohnd said:
I have inserted a link showing a severe sludge attacked engine - head cover open.
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1096/enginesuldge.jpg

Man, that was one hell of a picture

Az · February 27, 2009

vitz said:
This is what i see after removing the engine oil filling cap. Bharath, Az, did you guys observed the same thing.
Bharath, you are correct, the engine oil doesnot reach that far. So... what is then this stain, is it a deposition from the vapour of oil?.

http://img24.imageshack.us/my.php?image=enginex.jpg

Hey Vitz,

Mine does not look like that. Mine is a thin yellowish film of dried oil. From the image, this looks like sludge so I think you should get your engine cleaned ASAP.

vitz · February 27, 2009

Az,

It is not that thick as the photo shows. I just cleaned using a cloth. Then, it became a thin orange color film. Anyhow, I will update after get it checked from the service station.

regards

Az said:
Hey Vitz,
Mine does not look like that. Mine is a thin yellowish film of dried oil. From the image, this looks like sludge so I think you should get your engine cleaned ASAP.