Which Type Would You Go For??

[isurujosh]

Arguements for forced induction.

Arguements for natural induction...

Ferrari Enzo + Mclaren F1

beat that if you can, now don't tell me an insanely modified skyline that would last very little or the Veyron which has endless heating problems of itz own could match it, coz they may be faster but they can't match the persistence of N/A, take Veyron/F1/Enfo to Nur. ask them to do "SEVERAL" laps, who do you think will win, I think itz Enzo(F1 may be faster but handling I ain't too sure)

/just a thought from the N/A camp!!!

[Pericles]

Arguements for natural induction...

Ferrari Enzo + Mclaren F1

beat that if you can, now don't tell me an insanely modified skyline that would last very little or the Veyron which has endless heating problems of itz own could match it, coz they may be faster but they can't match the persistence of N/A, take Veyron/F1/Enfo to Nur. ask them to do "SEVERAL" laps, who do you think will win, I think itz Enzo(F1 may be faster but handling I ain't too sure)

/just a thought from the N/A camp!!!

Insanely modified Skylines do last. Thats the beauty and power of the RB

And I dunno where u got the heating problems idea from, coz Top Gear had one of their insane races where JC drove the Veyron from Italy to London in a DAY, with some sustained high speed runs across France, and the car had no problems.

And ur Nur test is pure speculation. Once its done, use it as an arguement.

Anyway, ur missing the point of the pic. Thats a Quad Turbo W-16 that puts out 1001hp. Its nothing short of a engineering miracle.

[Overdrive]

Arguements for natural induction...

Ferrari Enzo + Mclaren F1

beat that if you can, now don't tell me an insanely modified skyline that would last very little or the Veyron which has endless heating problems of itz own could match it, coz they may be faster but they can't match the persistence of N/A, take Veyron/F1/Enfo to Nur. ask them to do "SEVERAL" laps, who do you think will win, I think itz Enzo(F1 may be faster but handling I ain't too sure)

/just a thought from the N/A camp!!!

I see where you got the idea of the overheating of the veron, well it took them a long time to develop the car because the car "was" over heating, let me stress on the point "WAS", but the brilliant enginers of bugatti got around the problem at the end, as a matter of fact they are building a faster GT version of the veron which would be launched next year. 1232bhp to be precise and a mind boggling 272mph (437 kmph) according to auto car. Price 700,770 Pounds. The car has high demand, so it will sell.

almost forgot, they are also making a 4 door, for wheel drive, quad turbo V16 based on the veron, top speed 220mph!

My point is to get that kind of power out of a n/a engine, how big would the engine have to be?? I rest my case..

[Blazin]

Thats 'VTEC'!!!

Nothing to beat the torque of Turbo charged performance car.. But I find it silly when audi and Vw turbo charge their line of 'family/office' sedans.. of course the Golf is something else.

Even though I drive a Honda I'd have to go for the Turbo, the torque you get from a turbo makes the car so much more drivable than an N/A car.

The turbo charging technology has come such a long way now that they can beat the N/A fuel economy, and still have loads more torque as well:

Civic Type-R

2 litre VTEC - 197bhp / 31mpg

196NM of Torque

Golf Gti

2 litre turbo - 197 bhp / 35mpg

280NM of Torque

Sorry guys turbo wins anyday!

[noaim]

Superchargers

by Richard Dobson

GMC Motorsport

www.gmcmotorsport.co.uk

TURBO'S vs SUPERCHARGERS - Pros & Cons:

Turbo Pros ( + )

Only one, where max boost/max power is required in full race, track application, where other considerations can be rejected, e.g. cost to build and develop, life expectancy etc.

Turbo Cons ( - )

Much higher boost pressure needed for the same bhp due to pressurised air being much hotter, due to conduction from red hot exhaust manifold.

Much more complex management needed to control fuelling and ignition due instantaneous rise of boost pressure.

Higher pressures and temperatures encouraging detonation, the big engine destroyer.

More intercooling needed to cool inlet air.

Much higher under bonnet temperature making everything hotter and so reducing power.

High under bonnet temperature reducing life of things like wiring looms and hoses.

Much higher incidents of fire due to red hot turbo and manifold.

Compromise exhaust manifold and system function due to restriction of turbo not letting the gas flow freely.

Extra shock loadings on transmission due to sudden increase in power

Supercharger Pros ( + )

Basically all the things the turbo is bad at the supercharger is good at.

Supercharger Cons ( - )

No dump valve to make a nice noise

For those building their own kit I would recommend always going to a charger 1 size above what the engine capacity suggests, as the price for the next size higher is quite small and if necessary put a restrictor in to reduce the boost. The reason I say this is that most people start off with quite modest expectations but as soon as they have it fitted they want MORE and if the charger they have already fitted is running at max capacity, they have to discard it and buy a complete new unit. This problem of running out of charger capacity is especially a problem if the engine is 1) High revving e.g. over 7000 rpm. 2) 16 valve unit, as they eat air quicker than 8 valves. 3) The compression is lowered.

[isurujosh]

I see where you got the idea of the overheating of the veron, well it took them a long time to develop the car because the car "was" over heating, let me stress on the point "WAS", but the brilliant enginers of bugatti got around the problem at the end, as a matter of fact they are building a faster GT version of the veron which would be launched next year. 1232bhp to be precise and a mind boggling 272mph (437 kmph) according to auto car. Price 700,770 Pounds. The car has high demand, so it will sell.

almost forgot, they are also making a 4 door, for wheel drive, quad turbo V16 based on the veron, top speed 220mph!

My point is to get that kind of power out of a n/a engine, how big would the engine have to be?? I rest my case..

Indeed Preveen itz all speculation until the real run is done!

Well I got the heating issue from the fact that Veyron release was delayed for years coz f heating, and as you have correctly put it, the VW engineers did overcome that, but I still remain skeptical over the W shaped engine's persistence against a N/A engine(That again is a an opinion, well my skepticism grows small as I keep seeing your arguments, hmm... constructive indeed)

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Indeed the Veyron is a Enginnering miracle, still the F1 beats it with Power-to-weight ratio, itz da freaking turbo Torque dat does the trick for the Veyron

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BTW will the Veyron GT be road legal ????

[Pericles]

Indeed Preveen itz all speculation until the real run is done!

Well I got the heating issue from the fact that Veyron release was delayed for years coz f heating, and as you have correctly put it, the VW engineers did overcome that, but I still remain skeptical over the W shaped engine's persistence against a N/A engine(That again is a an opinion, well my skepticism grows small as I keep seeing your arguments, hmm... constructive indeed)

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Indeed the Veyron is a Enginnering miracle, still the F1 beats it with Power-to-weight ratio, itz da freaking turbo Torque dat does the trick for the Veyron

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BTW will the Veyron GT be road legal ????

What limits a W engine to turbo? W engines seem to be gathering some steam in both N/A and Forced Induction. In VWs vehicles like the Toureg and Phaeton, which have N/A engines, as far as I know, have W12s for sure. The Bentley Continental GT is a W12 TT. The Audi A8 is available in W12. Bugatti has a W18 engine car, Turbo-charged.

And about the F1 vs Bugatti, Cornering speed might be nullified by the fact that the Veyron does 0-200 faster than the McLaren goes from 120-200. And I'm talking in mph here

This from Wiki.

Reviews

Gordon Murray, designer of the McLaren F1 said the following about the Bugatti Veyron in UK auto magazine evo during its development period: "The most pointless exercise on the planet has got to be this four-wheel-drive 1000 horsepower Bugatti. I think it’s incredibly childish this thing people have about just one element – top speed or standing kilometre or 0-60. It’s about as narrow minded as you can get as a car designer to pick on one element. It’s like saying we’re going to beat the original Mini because we’re going to make a car 10 mph faster on its top speed – but it's two foot longer and 200 kilos heavier. That’s not car designing – that just reeks of a company who are paranoid."[citation needed]

However, after the car had made production, Murray went on to write an article for another UK auto magazine, Top Gear conceding a lot of his past resentment of the car. "One really good thing, and I simply never expected this, is that it does change direction. It hardly feels its weight. Driving it on a circuit I expected a sack of cement, but you can really throw it at tight chicanes" He also declared in the article that: "The braking is phenomenal," "The primary ride and body control are good too" and "It's a huge achievement."[citation needed]

The trend of backtracking on negative comments about the Veyron continued when prominent UK car show host Jeremy Clarkson declared that it was "The best car ever made" after initially saying it was ridiculous and would never exist on motoring show Top Gear.[citation needed]

Edited June 6, 2006 by Pericles

[isurujosh]

What limits a W engine to turbo? W engines seem to be gathering some steam in both N/A and Forced Induction. In VWs vehicles like the Toureg and Phaeton, which have N/A engines, as far as I know, have W12s for sure. The Bentley Continental GT is a W12 TT. The Audi A8 is available in W12. Bugatti has a W18 engine car, Turbo-charged.

And about the F1 vs Bugatti, Cornering speed might be nullified by the fact that the Veyron does 0-200 faster than the McLaren goes from 120-200. And I'm talking in mph here

This from Wiki.

Nope Nope Nope, I don't have any bad to say about W engines, "W" was used to refer to the enigine it self not necessarily any fault of itz.

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Having said that the W engine would have been left clueless by the F1, if it weren't for the Turbo Torque, remember Power-to-weight F1 still is at adavantage... So W aint the winner, itz your beloved F/A who kills F1 on track

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hmmm.. looks like Veyron might still make it comfortably, if it lasts long enough!!! /jst speculation

/fighting for N/A is a true upstreanm battle

[Elvis_Pil]

Even though I drive a Honda I'd have to go for the Turbo, the torque you get from a turbo makes the car so much more drivable than an N/A car.

The turbo charging technology has come such a long way now that they can beat the N/A fuel economy, and still have loads more torque as well:

Civic Type-R

2 litre VTEC - 197bhp / 31mpg

196NM of Torque

Golf Gti

2 litre turbo - 197 bhp / 35mpg

280NM of Torque

Sorry guys turbo wins anyday!

Interesting fact: Who was the last F1 engine manufacturer to win a world championship in the turbo charged era of the sport?

Honda in 1988- vtec would have been R&D at the time and they would also have had all that data and experience turbo-ing in F1 and could have easily gone that way... What did they choose? Yep and everyone followed!!

OT: does anyone have any DVD's on old F1 seasons?? I'm willing to pay for copies or if anyone wants to pool and order online?

[fuzzo]

OT: does anyone have any DVD's on old F1 seasons?? I'm willing to pay for copies or if anyone wants to pool and order online?

you know what i see here....

[Blazin]

Interesting fact: Who was the last F1 engine manufacturer to win a world championship in the turbo charged era of the sport?

Honda in 1988- vtec would have been R&D at the time and they would also have had all that data and experience turbo-ing in F1 and could have easily gone that way... What did they choose? Yep and everyone followed!!

OT: does anyone have any DVD's on old F1 seasons?? I'm willing to pay for copies or if anyone wants to pool and order online?

Machang, the last of the turbo charged F1 cars had a 1.5 litre twin turbo unit and the Cosworth engine had an approx 1000 bhp. But its not that all the engine manufactures decided to suddenly drop the turbos and take the N/A route, they were forced to by the FIA regulations. Just like how the 3 litre V10 engines were dropped down to 2.4 V8's this season. The cars were getting too quick and too dangerous.

Even BMW, who previously had stayed away from turbo charging their petrol cars are taking the turbo route, the new 335 coupe is 3 litre twin turbo pushing 306bhp.

[Elvis_Pil]

Machang, the last of the turbo charged F1 cars had a 1.5 litre twin turbo unit and the Cosworth engine had an approx 1000 bhp. But its not that all the engine manufactures decided to suddenly drop the turbos and take the N/A route, they were forced to by the FIA regulations. Just like how the 3 litre V10 engines were dropped down to 2.4 V8's this season. The cars were getting too quick and too dangerous.

Even BMW, who previously had stayed away from turbo charging their petrol cars are taking the turbo route, the new 335 coupe is 3 litre twin turbo pushing 306bhp.

Dude you missed the point.. I ment passenger cars.. Machan your in the uk right? Seen any old F1 season videos for sale?

[sharkster]

Machang, the last of the turbo charged F1 cars had a 1.5 litre twin turbo unit and the Cosworth engine had an approx 1000 bhp. But its not that all the engine manufactures decided to suddenly drop the turbos and take the N/A route, they were forced to by the FIA regulations. Just like how the 3 litre V10 engines were dropped down to 2.4 V8's this season. The cars were getting too quick and too dangerous.

precisely...and the FIA is also going to reduce the percentage of downforce for the next season...when will regulations ever be enough for mosley?

[Blazin]

precisely...and the FIA is also going to reduce the percentage of downforce for the next season...when will regulations ever be enough for mosley?

Yea, Mosley is too paranoid on safety and cost cutting. I think he's going to ruin F1 with his current plans on engine freeze, single chasis and gearbox rules...etc. Personally I'm more facinated by the technology in F1 rather than the wheel to wheel racing.

Pilla, I haven't seen many old F1 videos in stores but I haven't really been looking out for any either. I'm sure I can get hold of some quite easily over the net (Amazon or Ebay). How old are you talking about? 70's, 80's? or older than that?

[Elvis_Pil]

Yea, Mosley is too paranoid on safety and cost cutting. I think he's going to ruin F1 with his current plans on engine freeze, single chasis and gearbox rules...etc. Personally I'm more facinated by the technology in F1 rather than the wheel to wheel racing.

Pilla, I haven't seen many old F1 videos in stores but I haven't really been looking out for any either. I'm sure I can get hold of some quite easily over the net (Amazon or Ebay). How old are you talking about? 70's, 80's? or older than that?

Say 80's & 90's- cant get 'em down to SL though cause most of the sites dont deliver over here... I think the single tyre maker scene is big step backwards... F1 Admin need to stop looking at technology so negativelly.... Maybe they need to think of new rules to promote F1 R&D towards normal road cars.. like say limiting the amount/mix of fuels that the cars use every race.

[Blazin]

Say 80's & 90's- cant get 'em down to SL though cause most of the sites dont deliver over here... I think the single tyre maker scene is big step backwards... F1 Admin need to stop looking at technology so negativelly.... Maybe they need to think of new rules to promote F1 R&D towards normal road cars.. like say limiting the amount/mix of fuels that the cars use every race.

I'll take a look Machang. It shouldn't bo too hard to find. Will probably be able to get a DVD box set or something.

About the cost cutting in F1, almost all the big car manufacturing teams are against it because they use F1 as a marketing tool for demonstrating their capability in technology. But currently it is quite hard for smaller teams to compete in F1. I think the best thing is for the manufactures to break away and form their own series.

[Elvis_Pil]

I'll take a look Machang. It shouldn't bo too hard to find. Will probably be able to get a DVD box set or something.

Thanks dude..

About the cost cutting in F1, almost all the big car manufacturing teams are against it because they use F1 as a marketing tool for demonstrating their capability in technology. But currently it is quite hard for smaller teams to compete in F1. I think the best thing is for the manufactures to break away and form their own series.

Wont happen in the near future-most of the teams have singed up with the FIA until 2010 or so I think..

[Overdrive]

OT: Machan pilla, coming to SL on the 25th shall bring them if i get hold of it. (did a ebay uk,search for "f1", loads, see what you like and mail me)

OT again this F1 session on this thread but healthy in my opinion as its "atleast" motor related!

What do you guys think of the new qualifying rules? Like it or not? and blazing, not going to silverstone mate?

[sharkster]

OT again this F1 session on this thread but healthy in my openion as its "atleast" motor related!

yup i hav absolutely no problems with it considering it startd off with F1's turbo history

[Overdrive]

yup i hav absolutely no problems with it considering it startd off with F1's turbo history

cool!

[Elvis_Pil]

OT: Machan pilla, coming to SL on the 25th shall bring them if i get hold of it. (did a ebay uk,search for "f1", loads, see what you like and mail me)

OT again this F1 session on this thread but healthy in my opinion as its "atleast" motor related!

What do you guys think of the new qualifying rules? Like it or not? and blazing, not going to silverstone mate?

Hey thanks dude.. tried sending a mail to your edee the other day but failed..

2006 Qualifying has a few downs.. I think the 3rd 20 min session is a tad too long.. and its a bit dull to see the cars running around on 'out' laps just to burn fuel.. What I dont like the most is point system.. only two points between 1st and 2nd.. spoils the season with boys like Alonso

News is that Toyota and Honda are real pissed with the proposed 'engine freeze' rule and may consider a pull out.

[Hola]

may be i posted this in the wrong thread-but u guys know what this is?

[Blazin]

OT: Machan pilla, coming to SL on the 25th shall bring them if i get hold of it. (did a ebay uk,search for "f1", loads, see what you like and mail me)

OT again this F1 session on this thread but healthy in my opinion as its "atleast" motor related!

What do you guys think of the new qualifying rules? Like it or not? and blazing, not going to silverstone mate?

I like the qualifying man, its cool. But first part of Quali 3 is a bit pointless. I think they should shorten it and may be run with only 50% of race fuel instead.

I tried to get some tickets to Silverstone but only the grandstand tickets left and cost £200 each! I didn't think that was worth it. I'd rather watch it on TV with replays!

I hope Toyota gets a podium finish this race they've doing so shit this season. Pilla, you know Williams might be with Toyota power next season?

[Overdrive]

I like the qualifying man, its cool. But first part of Quali 3 is a bit pointless. I think they should shorten it and may be run with only 50% of race fuel instead.

I tried to get some tickets to Silverstone but only the grandstand tickets left and cost £200 each! I didn't think that was worth it. I'd rather watch it on TV with replays!

I hope Toyota gets a podium finish this race they've doing so shit this season. Pilla, you know Williams might be with Toyota power next season?

The only place in silverstone that interested me costs 340 pounds, plus i have to buy two. I hope JB atleast does well.

To start off with the new quali rules gives spectatoers more value for money. Lasts longer as opposed to the earlier one which was over before you could say "formula1". Plus it has spiced up things abit don't you think?

I agree the engine homologation and the tyre issue are moves not in the right directions.

Pilla i shall pretend i didn't see the remark about the "CURRENT WORLD CHAMPION"!!

[xXx]

may be i posted this in the wrong thread-but u guys know what this is?

what the hell is wrong with you dude. if you dont have anything to say just shut the f**k up.