Alternator Charging

[rameez]

Hi all,

I have a small clarification to be sorted out.I have a Lancer A72 station wagon, last saturday after an 18Km drive the car suddenly stalled, with the speed it was going i managed to pull it sideways in the road and then tried to start the engine it did not , i mean i can see the charge light ( red) but the engine does not crank just a shake. I then got a guy from a battery shop who came and fixed another fully charged battery in parallel with the existing one and told me to start it , and it did fire up at once.

Later we drove to the shop he came from and he checked the started motor and said that my battery is dead he kept the multimeter in the contacts and told me to raise the engine ,i also saw that the old battery is still giving a reading of 12V.A few months back the battery was dead and i had to clear out the acid and refill it from the very same shop.It was OK for about 2 months until this incident.However i must admit that occasionally if the engine stops in traffic due to clutch missing by me it was a bit hard to start , maybe after 2 attempts it come back to life.I thought this was ok.As at now there is no issue with the new battery which is seal type that i got for 8200 LKR 45AH.

1)Do you think it is normal for a car can stop suddenly even if the battery is low. I thought that we will have problems starting it again and as long it is running it gets the current from the alternator.

2) is there any problem with my alternaotor , how can we check that.

3)can anyone recommend a mechanic to check this out around colombo , i stay in dehiwela.

4) how long do i need to run for a battery to be charged.18km is ok ?

5) does the current from the spark plug come from the alternator or battery, is that why my car stalled ?

any expert please advice, i am a bit baffeled.

rameez

[harshansenadhir]

  On 4/4/2011 at 6:30 AM, rameez said:

Hi all,

I have a small clarification to be sorted out.I have a Lancer A72 station wagon, last saturday after an 18Km drive the car suddenly stalled, with the speed it was going i managed to pull it sideways in the road and then tried to start the engine it did not , i mean i can see the charge light ( red) but the engine does not crank just a shake. I then got a guy from a battery shop who came and fixed another fully charged battery in parallel with the existing one and told me to start it , and it did fire up at once.

Later we drove to the shop he came from and he checked the started motor and said that my battery is dead he kept the multimeter in the contacts and told me to raise the engine ,i also saw that the old battery is still giving a reading of 12V.A few months back the battery was dead and i had to clear out the acid and refill it from the very same shop.It was OK for about 2 months until this incident.However i must admit that occasionally if the engine stops in traffic due to clutch missing by me it was a bit hard to start , maybe after 2 attempts it come back to life.I thought this was ok.As at now there is no issue with the new battery which is seal type that i got for 8200 LKR 45AH.

1)Do you think it is normal for a car can stop suddenly even if the battery is low. I thought that we will have problems starting it again and as long it is running it gets the current from the alternator.

2) is there any problem with my alternaotor , how can we check that.

3)can anyone recommend a mechanic to check this out around colombo , i stay in dehiwela.

4) how long do i need to run for a battery to be charged.18km is ok ?

5) does the current from the spark plug come from the alternator or battery, is that why my car stalled ?

any expert please advice, i am a bit baffeled.

rameez

I'm not very clear, is it two batteries in last 02 months or only an acid change done 02 months back? How old is the battery ?

1. cannot judge the alternator by a single isolated incident. How is the morning start? and do you drive home in the night with lights and A/C on? does the car start the following morning without hesitation ?

2. Charging can be checked with full load (lights, A/C switched on) and it should provide an output of 13.5 ~ 14 depending on the load. If it doesn't give this output, it's either the alternator coil itself or other components in the charging system such as diode plate and charging IC or regulator.

3. I'm afraid I don't have any contacts around Dehiwala area.

4. Depends on the battery and the health of the charging system. Usually after about 20 to 30 mins of a run, even a deflated battery should handle a start (provided that battery is in good health). Depends on the time you ran the vehicle than the no of kms you run basically.

5. current comes from the entire system. If the battery charging is weak, yes there's a chance of car stalling.

Try to isolate the problem, whether it's charging related or not. If your morning start is ok and battery and the charging system is in good nick, then the next suspect would be the ignition coil which would make a car stall. Find out answers for the charging system and then let's proceed with the diagnosis of the issue.

[Ripper]

  On 4/4/2011 at 6:30 AM, rameez said:

Hi all,

I have a small clarification to be sorted out.I have a Lancer A72 station wagon, last saturday after an 18Km drive the car suddenly stalled, with the speed it was going i managed to pull it sideways in the road and then tried to start the engine it did not , i mean i can see the charge light ( red) but the engine does not crank just a shake. I then got a guy from a battery shop who came and fixed another fully charged battery in parallel with the existing one and told me to start it , and it did fire up at once.

Later we drove to the shop he came from and he checked the started motor and said that my battery is dead he kept the multimeter in the contacts and told me to raise the engine ,i also saw that the old battery is still giving a reading of 12V.A few months back the battery was dead and i had to clear out the acid and refill it from the very same shop.It was OK for about 2 months until this incident.However i must admit that occasionally if the engine stops in traffic due to clutch missing by me it was a bit hard to start , maybe after 2 attempts it come back to life.I thought this was ok.As at now there is no issue with the new battery which is seal type that i got for 8200 LKR 45AH.

1)Do you think it is normal for a car can stop suddenly even if the battery is low. I thought that we will have problems starting it again and as long it is running it gets the current from the alternator.

2) is there any problem with my alternaotor , how can we check that.

3)can anyone recommend a mechanic to check this out around colombo , i stay in dehiwela.

4) how long do i need to run for a battery to be charged.18km is ok ?

5) does the current from the spark plug come from the alternator or battery, is that why my car stalled ?

any expert please advice, i am a bit baffeled.

rameez

no an expert in any means but this is my 2 cents

1. Theoretically the car shouldn't die on you when the battery is low. But i suppose when the power demands are high maybe the alternator too gets overwhelmed. This happened to my once when i had a bad alternator. Battery was new but would be drained fast and how i go to know the issue was when the engine knocked off on when i was driving. Managed to clutch and jump start on the move, switched off AC and stereo and managed to drive to safety

2. yes. alternators can be checked to see whether they are performing as it should. Generally there are three roles performed by a modern alternator.

firstly they produced AC voltage and then they will convert it to DC current and also regulate it to be under about 14volts even when the revs go up.

With the battery fully charged, you can do a load test and see if the alternator is providing enough current to run your systems. measured in amps

Also usually the charging voltage is around 14volts at the battery terminals when the engine is running. At all times when the engine is off the battery voltage should be more than 12v.

3. I got mine sorted with Pala electricals. They did a decent job and i didn't have any issues until i eventually sold the car.

4. really depends on how badly depleted your battery is, the charging situ with the alternator, power demands of the car. But generally 18km's cant be enough to charge a depleted battery imho.

5.once the car is fired up and running, it's a connected system. so you can't really say power comes only from the alternator. But battery is there to provide power at startup and then to help power ancillaries. I suppose if you had other power consuming stuff running, alternator power might not be enough to keep the ignition coil firing when the battery is drained.

[Ripper]

oops... didn't see harshan's reply

[rameez]

harshana/ripper,

my comments in italics

  On 4/4/2011 at 7:09 AM, harshansenadhir said:

I'm not very clear, is it two batteries in last 02 months or only an acid change done 02 months back? How old is the battery ? machang no it was an acid change 2 months back and then this new one after the incident.the battery must be more than an year old was there when the car was bought.

1. cannot judge the alternator by a single isolated incident. How is the morning start? and do you drive home in the night with lights and A/C on? does the car start the following morning without hesitation ? yes i do with the blower on , in fact the day the whole time the fan was on , not yet fixed and AC for this .Morning start is a bit shaky.

2. Charging can be checked with full load (lights, A/C switched on) and it should provide an output of 13.5 ~ 14 depending on the load. If it doesn't give this output, it's either the alternator coil itself or other components in the charging system such as diode plate and charging IC or regulator. keeping a multimeter to the battery terminals when the car is on and other things working should be the way to check it right ?

3. I'm afraid I don't have any contacts around Dehiwala area. that is ok any where else, dont mind driving far away to get this sorted out.

4. Depends on the battery and the health of the charging system. Usually after about 20 to 30 mins of a run, even a deflated battery should handle a start (provided that battery is in good health). Depends on the time you ran the vehicle than the no of kms you run basically. well it was say an average run from maradana with not more than 50km top speed and occasional traffic jams, but still the engine is running so that there should be a charge happening am i right ?

5. current comes from the entire system. If the battery charging is weak, yes there's a chance of car stalling.

Try to isolate the problem, whether it's charging related or not. If your morning start is ok and battery and the charging system is in good nick, then the next suspect would be the ignition coil which would make a car stall. Find out answers for the charging system and then let's proceed with the diagnosis of the issue.

has this got some thing to do with the distributor

Edited April 4, 2011 by rameez

[harshansenadhir]

  On 4/4/2011 at 7:59 AM, rameez said:

harshana/ripper,

my comments in italics

seems either the alternator or regulator has some hick-ups. Check the charging voltages as per the point 2 and put up the figures here. Then we all can be clear of the problem.

[harshansenadhir]

Any update on the diagnosis or repair attempts you made?

As much as i would like to help ppl on diagnosis, it's best if they can put up the findings and results here. Not only new visitors but even ourselves would be benefited in terms of learning.

[Sylvi]

Member,

Get your Battery charging system checked up from a good Auto electrical Shop.

Sylvi Wijesinghe.

[rameez]

  On 4/4/2011 at 6:43 PM, harshansenadhir said:

Any update on the diagnosis or repair attempts you made?

As much as i would like to help ppl on diagnosis, it's best if they can put up the findings and results here. Not only new visitors but even ourselves would be benefited in terms of learning.

harshana,

appreciate your courtesy.........will sure do it and keep you all updated. Yes i agree autolanka has made us all learn new things

[rameez]

  On 4/5/2011 at 1:08 AM, Sylvi said:

Member,

Get your Battery charging system checked up from a good Auto electrical Shop.

Sylvi Wijesinghe.

looks like some big money will be spent....... :angry-smiley-048:

[Batteries]

  On 4/4/2011 at 7:59 AM, rameez said:

harshana/ripper,

well it was say an average run from maradana with not more than 50km top speed and occasional traffic jams, but still the engine is running so that there should be a charge happening am i right

Actually my battery when all most dead due to my alternative going a bust. I come a about 25KM home to office. So after replacing my alternator I did 3 trips up & down to get my battery fully charged. These 3 was done without AC & Radio. Mind you my batter is about 6 months old. (Best E***E has)

But even the batter was charge was very low & alternator was not working I did not have any issues starting the car when I was taking it to the garage to get my alternator fixed.

[Reckless]

A bit OT but since this topic is some what relative to alternators I've decided to post my question here:

One of my friends lent me an old Camry CV30 diesel auto. After about 2days of using the car the dash board indicator lights started to flicker after starting the engine. They remains flickering even when i drove the vehicle around. I've asked the owner and he told me that its an indication of alternator diodes going bad. He said some time back he also had this issue and that he didn't care about it until one day the engine stalled and he couldn't start the car. The problem was solved after replacing the diodes.

So I went to a battery joint and they checked the battery charging with the usual routine and told me that there is no issue with the alternator. The battery is only one month old. So i went back home and been using the vehicle about a week since then but no issues popped up other than the flickering dash lights. I some times drive at night with headlights and AC on but there is no problem starting the car in the morning.

Suppose the battery joint people were wrong and actually the alternator IS going bad will I be able to run the car for a week with a bad alternator and a new battery? Or this may simply be a short circuit some where?

[Sylvi]

  On 4/5/2011 at 4:06 PM, Reckless said:

A bit OT but since this topic is some what relative to alternators I've decided to post my question here:

One of my friends lent me an old Camry CV30 diesel auto. After about 2days of using the car the dash board indicator lights started to flicker after starting the engine. They remains flickering even when i drove the vehicle around. I've asked the owner and he told me that its an indication of alternator diodes going bad. He said some time back he also had this issue and that he didn't care about it until one day the engine stalled and he couldn't start the car. The problem was solved after replacing the diodes.

So I went to a battery joint and they checked the battery charging with the usual routine and told me that there is no issue with the alternator. The battery is only one month old. So i went back home and been using the vehicle about a week since then but no issues popped up other than the flickering dash lights. I some times drive at night with headlights and AC on but there is no problem starting the car in the morning.

Suppose the battery joint people were wrong and actually the alternator IS going bad will I be able to run the car for a week with a bad alternator and a new battery? Or this may simply be a short circuit some where?

Reckless,

From your post I understand you had got your charging system checked up and they had informed you your system is OK then you say your normal running in night with AC on next day you can start your engine without any problem this alone proves charging system is OK.

You inform all lights on your dash board flicker. If it is the alternator warning bulb only is flickering then get your alternator bulb circuit tested.If not get a good Electrician to get your complete dash board wiring checked up.

Sylvi Wijesinghe.

[Sylvi]

  On 4/5/2011 at 5:03 AM, rameez said:

looks like some big money will be spent....... :angry-smiley-048:

rameez,

To test charging system motorist will not have to spend big money any battery shop or Auto Electrical repair shop will do same for a small fee. When I was in Electrical maintenance business I never charged any money for testing the charging system. That testing was part of our Service for Customers.

This will not take much time only use a DC Volt meter test the Voltage after accelerating the engine to about 2000 RPM.Then you test the Amperage by using a DC Ampere meter for charging amperage after starting the engine of the car all lights radio A/C wiper motor switched on and get the readings. Above system what I used to do will not take 5 Minutes.

Sylvi Wijesinghe.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Sylvi

[rameez]

  On 4/8/2011 at 2:15 AM, Sylvi said:

rameez,

To test charging system motorist will not have to spend big money any battery shop or Auto Electrical repair shop will do same for a small fee. When I was in Electrical maintenance business I never charged any money for testing the charging system. That testing was part of our Service for Customers.

This will not take much time only use a DC Volt meter test the Voltage after accelerating the engine to about 2000 RPM.Then you test the Amperage by using a DC Ampere meter for charging amperage after starting the engine of the car all lights radio A/C wiper motor switched on and get the readings. Above system what I used to do will not take 5 Minutes.

Sylvi Wijesinghe.

sylvi,

pala auto electrical should be fine right ? any other place you know of.

[harshansenadhir]

  On 4/8/2011 at 3:59 AM, rameez said:

sylvi,

pala auto electrical should be fine right ? any other place you know of.

Pala would be alright and they got quite lot of positive feedback in this forum and personally I can recommend based on my experience too.

[rameez]

  On 4/8/2011 at 8:02 AM, harshansenadhir said:

Pala would be alright and they got quite lot of positive feedback in this forum and personally I can recommend based on my experience too.

guys,

well i went and it took me the whole day.i was there at 11.30 and came home at 7.15 PM ,

first the foreman came and told me to raise the engine after he connected the multimeter i did not see what he read because i had to be at the passenger seat and the bonnet open.he said that current does not seem to come from the alternator.i saw a figure about 11.98 V then he asked me if it is ok to remove the alternator i said go ahead.

after removing the alternator which took about 45 min they told me the coils had fried and thus the current is not generated. I also saw that the coils were somewhat blackish than the normal copper you see.they then fixed a coil set which was told to me that it will cost 3500 but after that it was fixed into the alternator housing along with new bearing and bushes it turned out that the alternator was not moving freely and they had to find another alternator and remove that coil and fix it to my housing . then came the lunch hour and 45 min gone as well.

they also that my belt which was there was too tight and fixed one called bando which was

about 450 lkr.then they fixed the new alternator in to my car along with the new belt and took the reading it was about 12.45V after raising engine with all electricals on. i think it raised to about 2000 rpm did not go forward as they were also going to close and the payments had to be made and i was hell tired standing and walking the whole day.the cost was as follows

rotor bearing front -300

rotor bearing rear -375

brush set-100

starter coil and brush holder -4500

alternator belt 450

labour 3750

total 9475.00

i have a query that is does the reading have to be around 13.5 -14 when raised?, or 12.5 is ok and will charge the battery.

[The Stig]

  On 4/5/2011 at 4:06 PM, Reckless said:

A bit OT but since this topic is some what relative to alternators I've decided to post my question here:

One of my friends lent me an old Camry CV30 diesel auto. After about 2days of using the car the dash board indicator lights started to flicker after starting the engine. They remains flickering even when i drove the vehicle around. I've asked the owner and he told me that its an indication of alternator diodes going bad. He said some time back he also had this issue and that he didn't care about it until one day the engine stalled and he couldn't start the car. The problem was solved after replacing the diodes.

So I went to a battery joint and they checked the battery charging with the usual routine and told me that there is no issue with the alternator. The battery is only one month old. So i went back home and been using the vehicle about a week since then but no issues popped up other than the flickering dash lights. I some times drive at night with headlights and AC on but there is no problem starting the car in the morning.

Suppose the battery joint people were wrong and actually the alternator IS going bad will I be able to run the car for a week with a bad alternator and a new battery? Or this may simply be a short circuit some where?

Did they check the battery alone or did they check the alternator diodes also ?

Is the whole lighting system flickering including the headlights and other lamps or is it just the dashboard light ?

If the whole thing is flickering there could be any number of things that wrong, the alternator diodes are just one. If this is the case better get it checked out from an electrician.

But if its just the meter cluster lights it could be a simple loose connection.

Maybe when your friend got the same problem it might be have been cause of the diodes but this time its the same symptoms but the problem might be related to something else

[The Stig]

  On 4/10/2011 at 3:30 AM, rameez said:

i have a query that is does the reading have to be around 13.5 -14 when raised?, or 12.5 is ok and will charge the battery.

Optimally yes it should be around 13.5-14.5V but keeping the voltage on that range is the job of the Voltage regulator.

But anything above the batteries voltage will be able to charge the battery up, its a simple process of push from both sides. like when both voltages are equal nothing will happen, and when one overpowers the other (in terms of volts) current will start flowing in that direction.

Might sound like greek to you

And also since your coil is not factory fitted the drop in voltage is understandable as these third party coils are sub-par in performance as opposed to factory fitted ones.

someone correct me if im wrong, that means you Harshan

[rameez]

  On 4/10/2011 at 4:42 AM, The Stig said:

Optimally yes it should be around 13.5-14.5V but keeping the voltage on that range is the job of the Voltage regulator.

But anything above the batteries voltage will be able to charge the battery up, its a simple process of push from both sides. like when both voltages are equal nothing will happen, and when one overpowers the other (in terms of volts) current will start flowing in that direction.

Might sound like greek to you

And also since your coil is not factory fitted the drop in voltage is understandable as these third party coils are sub-par in performance as opposed to factory fitted ones.

someone correct me if im wrong, that means you Harshan

yes he is silent so far

[Reckless]

  On 4/10/2011 at 4:28 AM, The Stig said:

Did they check the battery alone or did they check the alternator diodes also ?

Is the whole lighting system flickering including the headlights and other lamps or is it just the dashboard light ?

If the whole thing is flickering there could be any number of things that wrong, the alternator diodes are just one. If this is the case better get it checked out from an electrician.

But if its just the meter cluster lights it could be a simple loose connection.

Maybe when your friend got the same problem it might be have been cause of the diodes but this time its the same symptoms but the problem might be related to something else

Machan, they just checked the battery and the charging etc with the multi meter didnt put their hands on the alternator diodes.

No machan the headlights dont flicker just the meter cluster indicators (Battery, oil, handbrake, turbo indicators etc) this does not effect the dash illumination lights for speedo meter, rpm meter, AC buttons or the Auto gear position indicator lights. Head lights also seems to be quite bright. I also think that it must be a simple loose connection or a short circuit.

Anyways I gave the car back to my friend and he seems to be driving around with the problem..

Edited April 10, 2011 by Reckless

[harshansenadhir]

  On 4/10/2011 at 6:53 AM, rameez said:

yes he is silent so far

hunting for a vehicle at least a temporary one to use in new year days till i get my hands on a good euro.

You said the inner coil has replaced or rather re-winded. This 12.5 is sort of bare minimum. This figure can considered ok provided that all electrics were switched on. However, with electrics switched off it should at least pump 13v out to keep the battery in good health.

[The Stig]

  On 4/10/2011 at 9:50 AM, Reckless said:

Machan, they just checked the battery and the charging etc with the multi meter didnt put their hands on the alternator diodes.

No machan the headlights dont flicker just the meter cluster indicators (Battery, oil, handbrake, turbo indicators etc) this does not effect the dash illumination lights for speedo meter, rpm meter, AC buttons or the Auto gear position indicator lights. Head lights also seems to be quite bright. I also think that it must be a simple loose connection or a short circuit.

Anyways I gave the car back to my friend and he seems to be driving around with the problem..

Well its his car, his problem dont get it into your head.

And if the car does stop on the middle of the road you can always use the classic "I told you so " remedy

[The Stig]

  On 4/10/2011 at 11:11 AM, harshansenadhir said:

hunting for a vehicle at least a temporary one to use in new year days till i get my hands on a good euro.

So no backup vehicle after the 406 ?

[Reckless]

  On 4/10/2011 at 1:11 PM, The Stig said:

Well its his car, his problem dont get it into your head.

And if the car does stop on the middle of the road you can always use the classic "I told you so " remedy

Yes machan its his problem now, but he doesn't seem to care.

I will wait till it stops on the middle of the road!

[Ripper]

  On 4/10/2011 at 3:30 AM, rameez said:

guys,

well i went and it took me the whole day.i was there at 11.30 and came home at 7.15 PM ,

first the foreman came and told me to raise the engine after he connected the multimeter i did not see what he read because i had to be at the passenger seat and the bonnet open.he said that current does not seem to come from the alternator.i saw a figure about 11.98 V then he asked me if it is ok to remove the alternator i said go ahead.

after removing the alternator which took about 45 min they told me the coils had fried and thus the current is not generated. I also saw that the coils were somewhat blackish than the normal copper you see.they then fixed a coil set which was told to me that it will cost 3500 but after that it was fixed into the alternator housing along with new bearing and bushes it turned out that the alternator was not moving freely and they had to find another alternator and remove that coil and fix it to my housing . then came the lunch hour and 45 min gone as well.

they also that my belt which was there was too tight and fixed one called bando which was

about 450 lkr.then they fixed the new alternator in to my car along with the new belt and took the reading it was about 12.45V after raising engine with all electricals on. i think it raised to about 2000 rpm did not go forward as they were also going to close and the payments had to be made and i was hell tired standing and walking the whole day.the cost was as follows

rotor bearing front -300

rotor bearing rear -375

brush set-100

starter coil and brush holder -4500

alternator belt 450

labour 3750

total 9475.00

i have a query that is does the reading have to be around 13.5 -14 when raised?, or 12.5 is ok and will charge the battery.

the joys of vehicle ownership mate. we've all been there done that

12.5v is too low afaik cos the battery voltage alone should be over that provided it's in good shape.

Quite possibly your battery must've been weakened due to the alternator issues you've been having.

After running about a bit, if your battery has charged up properly... when the engine is running you should get 14v or so at the battery terminals. This is with no electrical equipment running.