Greatest Automotive Nation?

[isurujosh]

Greatness is such a subjective thing, isn't it. So your choice is as good as mine. So please take some time out to vote for the greatest automotive nation in your book and state why.

I have included...

UK: This is my choice. More I read about great cars more I am inclined to believe that Brits are the best in building cars. Be it the Mclaren F1, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Lotus, Caterham, Aston Martin they all are very British and have some mystique greatness. Most other car makers in the world borrow expertise from british, sometimes eventhough the nameplate might read non-british the technology and philosophy really come from Britain. I recently even read that although Audi is renowned for 4WD quattro, the first 4WD cars were from Britain. But like all British car makers thay had not made profits and been forced to shut down. I don't think greateness has to be associated with "profits" so I vote Brit

Germany: Need I say more... Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, Audi, VW ... (Or eventhough Bugatti is really a French nameplate, I consider Veyron German more than any other)

Italy: Characterrised by the ever so raging and fierce battle between Farrari and Lambo.

Japan: They certainly make things perfect.

USA: I remain silent and let you decide.

France: Oh! they made the Bugatti Royale and they own the nameplate.

Sri Lanka: At the end of the day, we make the most out of the least . And how can I not give any choice for the Patriotic membership of our forum.

I hope I have not missed any other serious contender for this title. (PLZZZZ not India Ok!)

[Devinda_Z]

i just had a nightmare thinking of what would happen if TATA Group were to buy out BMW say!

but no chance of that yet - they've gotta double é group revenue to even dream of such an aquisition!!!

Maruti only revenue is a puny $3 Billion

[Hola]

i just had a nightmare thinking of what would happen if TATA Group were to buy out BMW say!

but no chance of that yet - they've gotta double é group revenue to even dream of such an aquisition!!!

Maruti only revenue is a puny $3 Billion

Beleive in your nightmares my friend. They recently bought in EU steel company. for £6.2bn. Its not long away! "Jaya Hind!!" :-)

Tata buys steel giant Corus for £6.2bn

By Michael Harrison, Business Editor

Published: 31 January 2007

Corus, the Anglo-Dutch steel maker, was bought for £6.2bn by Tata of India in the early hours of this morning after a dramatic shoot-out with the rival bidder CSN of Brazil.

The Indian company triumphed at the end of a marathon quick-fire auction with a bid of 608p against CSN's offer of 603p. Together with Corus's debt, the takeover values the steel maker at £6.7bn. The result of the auction came as a surprise to industry observers who had expected the Brazilian company to prevail, particularly as it went into the contest with the highest bid on the table of 515p.

The merger of Tata and Corus will create the world's fifth biggest steel maker and give it greater ability to compete with the number one player, Arcelor Mittal, created from Mittal's takeover of its European rival last year.

The auction of Corus was conducted by the Takeover Panel and was only the third such occasion in which a company has been sold in this way - the previous two auctions involved the property group Canary Wharf and the internet company QXL Ricardo.

The sale of Corus to Tata completes a remarkable turnaround for the company which was on the verge of bankruptcy four years ago with its share price languishing at 10p. The group brought in a new chief executive, Philippe Varin, who orchestrated a recovery of the company helped by a surge in world steel prices and a cutback in capacity in its loss-making UK steel business.

The takeover price of 608p represents a 68 per cent premium to Corus's share price prior to Tata's initial approach for the company four months ago and also a hefty premium to the price Mittal paid for Arcelor.

The takeover battle began last October after Tata started the bidding with an offer of 455p a share. In December it raised its bid to 500p to try to ward off a rival offer from CSN. But the move was to no avail as the Brazilian steel maker trumped its Indian rival the following day with a bid worth 515p.

That is where the bidding stood until yesterday's dramatic late-night auction. The CSN team, led by its finance director Octavio Lazcano and banker Goldman Sachs, were based at the offices of its lead financial adviser Lazards in London's West End. Tata and its advisers, ABN Amro, Rothschilds and Deutsche Bank, took part in the auction from the offices of their lawyer Herbert Smith. The Corus chief executive M. Varin and his chairman Jim Leng were being kept in touch with the progress of the auction at the company's Millbank headquarters.

M. Varin began the trawl of the world steel industry for a partner 18 months ago and held initial talks with CSN which decided it was not interested in a merger. Industry sources say that had CSN bid then, it would have picked up Corus for a lot less money because Tata would not have attempted to derail the takeover with a higher offer.

M. Varin's predecessor at Corus, Tony Pedder, also held merger talks with CSN in 2003 but that deal broke down because of a decline in stock markets and fears that the incoming presidency of Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva in Brazil would undermine the country's economic prospects.

Corus employs around 40,000 people at four sites in the UK, in Port Talbot, south Wales, Scunthorpe, Rotherham and Teesside. It was created out of the 1999 merger between British Steel and Hoogovens of the Netherlands.

Edited February 26, 2007 by Hola

[isurujosh]

Hey IJ we seem to have mis-understood each other a bit. No worries mate. It depends on how you measure greatness.

I was thinking more on the lines of how much innovation and contribution to motorsports the brands of that country has made.

But if its financial strength you can't argue with Japan and Toyota even if you forget all the other manufacturers.

As for the future it's getting crazier by the day.

The pace of growth of the Chinese and Indian markets mean that whoever has the best foot hold there will be winners. And then again there's so much money being made by their local companies that some of them could swallow up western or even Jap manufacturers. Scary thought I know

u r rite future looks scary but tilts more towards asians at large. but sometimes i tend to wonder whether the great days of cars are over, i tend to wonder whether the changes are going all crazy/practical than 'great' ... perhaps, even if the world moves on, europe's greatness may never be matched in an automotive sense.

[Hola]

u r rite future looks scary but tilts more towards asians at large. but sometimes i tend to wonder whether the great days of cars are over, i tend to wonder whether the changes are going all crazy/practical than 'great' ... perhaps, even if the world moves on, europe's greatness may never be matched in an automotive sense.

Look at Sri Lanka, decades back there was a time we were worried on power steering, then we were worried on 5 door vans when it has amajor market all over the world, then we were worried of Automatic where it had a low market but now? Then we were worried of Korean cars and now its par with jap prices, then we were worried of bigger engines than 1500cc on cars, and now people opt for a 1.6 or a 1.8. Lets wait and see more improvments to come and more greater our roads will be despite crazy taxing

[GTAm]

Look at Sri Lanka, decades back there was a time we were worried on power steering, then we were worried on 5 door vans when it has amajor market all over the world, then we were worried of Automatic where it had a low market but now? Then we were worried of Korean cars and now its par with jap prices, then we were worried of bigger engines than 1500cc on cars, and now people opt for a 1.6 or a 1.8. Lets wait and see more improvments to come and more greater our roads will be despite crazy taxing

Oh Sri Lankans are so averse to change and so steeped in fake traditions there's no point even discussing it. The plight of our country says it all.

Anyway your right, it's only a matter of time (maybe about 15-20 years) that Indian and Chinese cars catch up with the rest of the world in terms of quality and people begin to accept them as alternatives to Japanese and European cars.

However it will be interesting to see how the existing manufacturers adapt to this threat. Most manufacturers have tied up with Chinese companies and many have also started manufacturing or at least assembling in India.

Hola is right when he says that Tata buying out possibility could become a reality in the future. Scary but yes it could happen. If they do I hope they'll change the stylist first

And anyway the car industry is so crazy too. In the 80's Nissan was Japan's no.2 car maker, and Renault was in trouble. In the recent past Renault rescued Nissan and brought it back from certain bankruptcy. Who would have thought a Government (Solialist mind you) owned European car co. will buy a privately owned Japanese manufacturer??

[Devinda_Z]

Worrying news - Daimler-Chrysler which has been floundering abt is being targetted for a take over by é FAW group, China!!!!

even now FAW has JV's with VW , Toyota & Mazda...

but Chrysler at é same time is reported to have signed a deal with China's best seller - "Cherry" to design n build small cars for é chinese mkt

...which ever way is another automotive great in form of Detroits once big - Chrysler gonna go into é hands of automotive infidels-é chinese!!

............jus like MG-Rover......another one bites é dust.... ???

[JadeyBlitzen]

UK all the way. Rolls royce remains the best car in the world. the mini one of the greatest. the land rover something we cant do without. and when it comes to beautiful cars who's been a bigger threat to italians than brits??? aston martins remain absolutely gorgeous. i like nearly all the motoring aspects thats british. brits dont like something thats fast in a straight line, they need good handling. u can give a brit a nicely handling car with a 1.0 engine n they'll love it. why because brits dont build their roads straight. drive through a housing estate and you'll understand. brits love hatchbacks. and whats wrong with that? u can park in a gap of 2 inches and when ur washing machine breaks down u can take it to the menders. can u do that in a saloon car? they like open top motoring. actually brits by more convertibles per head than any other nation. that is in a country where it rains 364 days a year. but they dont care. they drive everyday with the top up but on that 1 day its sunny and all beautiful they put the top down and enjoy a dash of open top motoring. they dont like flashy cars. they dont like bad sounding cars. their favourite colours are black and silver. but i think their single biggest invention is the affordable sports car. think of it like this. nowadays we take our honda sirs starlet gts carina gts wrxs and evos for granted. but who started this trend? its the brits. it was ford uk who first started putting big engines in small cars making them fast as the fastest stuff they make. but jaguar was already making cheap sports cars sumthing nissan later did with the gtr and toyota with the 2jz supra. on that front alone i think we should worship uk as the greatest automotive country in the world. all japan did was just copy their ideas. one last thing. who do you think is the 1st nation thats started driving on the correct side of the road???

[MasterDon]

UK all the way. Rolls royce remains the best car in the world.............

i agree with you mostly....for me it's england first and italy coming in a very close second...

it's not just the cars they have made but the passion they have for motoring which amazes me....

BTW - dude your signature pic creeps me out....i can watch movies about ghosts,vampires and other creepies without any problem...but haunted dolls scare the sh*t outta me

[Devinda_Z]

i agree with you mostly....for me it's england first and italy coming in a very close second...

it's not just the cars they have made but the passion they have for motoring which amazes me....

BTW - dude your signature pic creeps me out....i can watch movies about ghosts,vampires and other creepies without any problem...but haunted dolls scare the sh*t outta me

[MasterDon]

ADO!!...you trying to kill me ..nearly had a heart attack....robotic bunnys are just as bad

but the scariest for me was the chucky series and it's hindi version ...

[GTAm]

UK all the way. Rolls royce remains the best car in the world. the mini one of the greatest. the land rover something we cant do without. and when it comes to beautiful cars who's been a bigger threat to italians than brits??? aston martins remain absolutely gorgeous. i like nearly all the motoring aspects thats british. brits dont like something thats fast in a straight line, they need good handling. u can give a brit a nicely handling car with a 1.0 engine n they'll love it. why because brits dont build their roads straight. drive through a housing estate and you'll understand. brits love hatchbacks. and whats wrong with that? u can park in a gap of 2 inches and when ur washing machine breaks down u can take it to the menders. can u do that in a saloon car? they like open top motoring. actually brits by more convertibles per head than any other nation. that is in a country where it rains 364 days a year. but they dont care. they drive everyday with the top up but on that 1 day its sunny and all beautiful they put the top down and enjoy a dash of open top motoring. they dont like flashy cars. they dont like bad sounding cars. their favourite colours are black and silver. but i think their single biggest invention is the affordable sports car. think of it like this. nowadays we take our honda sirs starlet gts carina gts wrxs and evos for granted. but who started this trend? its the brits. it was ford uk who first started putting big engines in small cars making them fast as the fastest stuff they make. but jaguar was already making cheap sports cars sumthing nissan later did with the gtr and toyota with the 2jz supra. on that front alone i think we should worship uk as the greatest automotive country in the world. all japan did was just copy their ideas. one last thing. who do you think is the 1st nation thats started driving on the correct side of the road???

Here I am rudely stirring a hornets nest, but then forums are there for such fun aren't they? ....... Hope it is taken in a friendly spirit as I'm not directing anything personal here, just enjoying the freedom of a forum.

Who says that Rolls Royce is the greatest car in the world? If at all it was one of the greatest luxury cars before any of us were born!

It's a myth. Rolls ceased to be the greatest a long long time ago.

The Brit press used to brag about it being the quietest car in the world, but then came the Lexus LS400 and smashed that claim with measured decible figures abd by quite a margin. In the 70's the W116 Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9 was considered

the best car in the world. Heck even and XJ would have out performed a Rolls on every front.

The current Phantom is probably one of the best Rolls in a long time. But the reason for this is that it was engineered by the Germans.

The first true gorgeous Aston WAS designed by Italians - Touring of Milan to be exact. That's when Aston learned beauty. There's also the most sought after Aston - the DB4 Zagato. That last name does not sound very British to me

"they need good handling" you say JadeyBlitzen. Then how do you explain the millions of crap handling Austins and Morris'? They unvented the dirty word "Badge engineering" by sticking a bit of chrome and wood and calling a crap Oxford, Woolsley and Riley. Let's not even go to the Morris Marina......In an era when France had been producing the Citroen DS for 2 decades and Germany was a decade on with the NSU Ro80!!! I'm not comparing them directly but was there any Brit car of the 50s and 60s that could come close to these two in technology?

Most British cars were technically out dated when compared with their European counterparts. I'd challenge you to show me any Brit classic bar maybe Jaguar that was technically more advanced than their rivals from Italy, France and Germany.

Top down motoring? Of course they are obsessed with them the same way they are obsessed about talking about the weather. You hit the nail on its head when you say that it rain 364 days a year. That's why they crave for sunshine on that one day. Nothing to do with cars. All to do with a lack of sun.

"they don't like bad sounding cars"; my foot (as a Brit would say himself ) how would you explain the Austin A and B series lumps? Oh yeah the Brit press used to call it chracter. Compare them with any Fiat unit of the era and they'll sound like toads in heat.

It was Ford UK who put big engines in small cars to make them go faster?????? Most history books started a bit earlier than that. Don't forget Dr. Ferdinand Porsche transplanting a beetle chassis to give the world the 356 and Carlo Abarth breathing on the lowly Fiats that killed giants. The 356 in the US and the Abarths in Europe. These are just two I that come into mind, I'm sure theer are loads more. Ah the Alfa Romeo Giulietta Ti - a small family car launched in the 1950's with an all alu twin cam?

Yes the original Mini is a great car. But both the Fiat 500 and the 600 predate it and have sold a lot more than the Mini. The 600 Abarth also has a more admirable competition history than the Mini Cooper.

Britain does have some great names for sure.

Jaguar is a great and admirable brand that made technically advanced cars that looked very good but again their competition records are pretty ordinary compared to the Italians. Then there's LR which is unique and Lotus which is quite an amazing company.

The two reason why most of us believe Britain's cars to be great is

a) We have a special realtionship with them being a colony for so many years and

b ) We read only English!

They were great at making a mountain of a mole hill and we (me included - until much later) bought it wholesale and let them keep the change!

In some ways they were like what the Japanese are today with their hype. Except Japanese cars are better made ! Trust the cunning Japs to take up the Brit motor industry's major weakness.

Edited December 28, 2008 by GTAm

[JadeyBlitzen]

oh great! its world war II all over again

ok lets start with rolls royce. the germans engineered the phantom. but they also designed and built a rival to that. which was... yes! the maybach. a jumped up c-class (yes i did say c-class) thats utterly vulgar. but why is the rolls royce so cool to behold? its the badge baby! its all about the badge! BMW not only bought the company itself but also the rights for the badge from another firm cos without it, it would have been just an X6 cum-too-early.

yes i do agree with you about the LS but does it ooze that british charm adored by millions of non of non brits worldwide??? fake walnut? and where's the lambs wool rugs???

btw as a fellow car nut i cant believe u walked right past the 600 grosser and named the 6.9 as a great merc. now thats a car that truly smashed the rolls. its just a shame you missed out on that point

so? the 1st beautiful aston was designed by the italians? ah yes! zagato rebodied the db4 much later in its life. i honestly respect the zagato. its actually on my list of top 10 most beautiful cars. but look at the original db4. i've been oogling it for ages. and when im in that market trust me its not the 007-esque db5 that i'll buy. its the original db4.

"Then how do you explain the millions of crap handling Austins and Morris"??? well compared to who??? the italians i suppose. but whats the point of having a beautiful car with beautiful handling that would corrode and fall to bits before it ever gets to a corner? im actually gutted u dragged austins and morris into this. ok they did make some bad handling cars. but what about the austin mini? (yep it was an austin before it was badge engineered by the british leyland whimps) and the morris minor? take some time off and drive one. just to see what i'm talking about. again if u consider urself a big car nut how did u forget lotus? who make the best handling cars in the world? even nissan resorted to seeking advice from them when they were designing the GT-R. now thats got "crap handling" rite?

there's no escaping the fact that brits invented badge engineering though. british leyland was the beginning of the end of the british motor industry. Mr. Austin's flawed vision, internal disputes, communism, and most importantly in house rivalry killed off the deal. taking half of the marques with it to the grave. what was left was a few honda engines that they strapped to some badly engineered rovers that were also killed off later by the british aerospace industry. do i blame them? no! after all they invented concorde!!!

i'm a big fan of the DS but why did you have to drag the nsu ro80 into this? ok it did win car of the year but do u realise the engines had to be replaced everytime it was tuesday? please find a better car next time if you want to reflect on other nations superiority in motoring.

and i sure can show you a car that the germans and the rest of europe hadnt even thought of back then. the range rover! not only it beat non existent off roaders from the rest of europe but also luxury cars as well. is it not a better invention than a people carrier??? and dont even get me started on esprits and jensens.

as for noise, its really a losing battle for the brits cos even the rover v8 had american roots. the italians always had the edge there. but germany and france? i dont think so. but i dont see the need to drag in the a and b series. u could very well incur the wrath of many mini fans here. but just for the record i compared noise made by the mini to that of a fiat 600. sorry mate! the 600 was just wheezy

as for affordable sports cars i still stand on my opinion of brits being the pioneers. the 356 is not really cheap is it? look at the lotus 7 (aka caterham). nothing can beat it for performance per pound. and jaguars, which seemed to pose the biggest threat to your opinions as you hinted in the last post, always made cars with big performance figures that can still be bought by a middle manager. remember the then superfast e-type v12 cost only 3 times more than the basic mini. ferrari anyone? oh no! only steve mcqueen was rich enough to afford one. as for the abarths and alfas i'd love to see one on the road but sadly they all seem to have seized to exist.

"both the Fiat 500 and the 600 predate it and have sold a lot more than the Mini. The 600 Abarth also has a more admirable competition history than the Mini Cooper" fiat a better seller? i almost died from falling off my chair while laughing. 600 abarth has more admirable competition history??? oh mate! you really killed me right there. dont know what you meant by admirable there. but im guessing it means something like "it was meant to take part and supposedly win the monte-carlo rally, but too bad it broke down before it even got out of the factory"

finally i must say i know you've been watching a lot of top gear and clarkson vids but you've missed the one where he talks about why brits love open top motoring. but then again you've been watching top gear, and i'd bet anything you love it. and anybody who's stuck to TG might say on that front alone top gear is the best automotive nation. but my opinion is britain is the greatest becos of the massive contribution they've made to motoring. and i challenge anyone to come up with another nation who's made a bigger contribution.

and here's my two reasons why YOU believe Italians are superior cos...

a) on top gear they say you are not a true petrolhead until you've owned an alfa

b ) and they also say ferrari is a scaled down version of god

and this is what i really think

a) yes! i want to experience that rollercoaster of pain, dissapointment and agony. (i seriously mean it)

b ) modern ferraris are just big fiats with all the skyline electronics.

I'm sorry mate! but i havent got much faith in the italians anymore. i must admit when i was young my favourite toy was a 1:24 ferrari f40. and to this day its my favourite supercar. born on the same year, i think there's nothing more intoxicating than having one. but after the 355 i've been slowly drifting away from ferrari. they are just 2 boring nowadays. and not very pretty either. i wish they'd build cars with passion not maths. and i really dont care if they break down.

the alfa 8c? i think its the most beautiful car in the world. i'm even recommending a 159 over an x-type to my best mate. but sadly even my cousin, who was btw born in rome n now lives in milan, admits that the italian motor industry is run by a bunch of stupid blokes. and trust me this guy knows 2 things. and thats economics and italian cars. so italy might probably end up being another britain. but sadly not before it can make a bigger contribution to motoring

finally im sorry if i overdid but even i'm enjoying the freedom of a forum

Edited December 30, 2008 by JadeyBlitzen

[Devinda_Z]

oh great! its world war II all over again

ok lets start with rolls royce. the germans engineered the phantom. but they also designed and built a rival to that. which was... yes! the maybach. a jumped up c-class (yes i did say c-class) thats utterly vulgar. but why is the rolls royce so cool to behold? its the badge baby! its all about the badge! BMW not only bought the company itself but also the rights for the badge from another firm cos without it, it would have been just an X6 cum-too-early.

yes i do agree with you about the LS but does it ooze that british charm adored by millions of non of non brits worldwide??? fake walnut? and where's the lambs wool rugs???

btw as a fellow car nut i cant believe u walked right past the 600 grosser and named the 6.9 as a great merc. now thats a car that truly smashed the rolls. its just a shame you missed out on that point

so? the 1st beautiful aston was designed by the italians? ah yes! zagato rebodied the db4 much later in its life. i honestly respect the zagato. its actually on my list of top 10 most beautiful cars. but look at the original db4. i've been oogling it for ages. and when im in that market trust me its not the 007-esque db5 that i'll buy. its the original db4.

"Then how do you explain the millions of crap handling Austins and Morris"??? well compared to who??? the italians i suppose. but whats the point of having a beautiful car with beautiful handling that would corrode and fall to bits before it ever gets to a corner? im actually gutted u dragged austins and morris into this. ok they did make some bad handling cars. but what about the austin mini? (yep it was an austin before it was badge engineered by the british leyland whimps) and the morris minor? take some time off and drive one. just to see what i'm talking about. again if u consider urself a big car nut how did u forget lotus? who make the best handling cars in the world? even nissan resorted to seeking advice from them when they were designing the GT-R. now thats got "crap handling" rite?

there's no escaping the fact that brits invented badge engineering though. british leyland was the beginning of the end of the british motor industry. Mr. Austin's flawed vision, internal disputes, communism, and most importantly in house rivalry killed off the deal. taking half of the marques with it to the grave. what was left was a few honda engines that they strapped to some badly engineered rovers that were also killed off later by the british aerospace industry. do i blame them? no! after all they invented concorde!!!

i'm a big fan of the DS but why did you have to drag the nsu ro80 into this? ok it did win car of the year but do u realise the engines had to be replaced everytime it was tuesday? please find a better car next time if you want to reflect on other nations superiority in motoring.

and i sure can show you a car that the germans and the rest of europe hadnt even thought of back then. the range rover! not only it beat non existent off roaders from the rest of europe but also luxury cars as well. is it not a better invention than a people carrier??? and dont even get me started on esprits and jensens.

as for noise, its really a losing battle for the brits cos even the rover v8 had american roots. the italians always had the edge there. but germany and france? i dont think so. but i dont see the need to drag in the a and b series. u could very well incur the wrath of many mini fans here. but just for the record i compared noise made by the mini to that of a fiat 600. sorry mate! the 600 was just wheezy

as for affordable sports cars i still stand on my opinion of brits being the pioneers. the 356 is not really cheap is it? look at the lotus 7 (aka caterham). nothing can beat it for performance per pound. and jaguars, which seemed to pose the biggest threat to your opinions as you hinted in the last post, always made cars with big performance figures that can still be bought by a middle manager. remember the then superfast e-type v12 cost only 3 times more than the basic mini. ferrari anyone? oh no! only steve mcqueen was rich enough to afford one. as for the abarths and alfas i'd love to see one on the road but sadly they all seem to have seized to exist.

"both the Fiat 500 and the 600 predate it and have sold a lot more than the Mini. The 600 Abarth also has a more admirable competition history than the Mini Cooper" fiat a better seller? i almost died from falling off my chair while laughing. 600 abarth has more admirable competition history??? oh mate! you really killed me right there. dont know what you meant by admirable there. but im guessing it means something like "it was meant to take part and supposedly win the monte-carlo rally, but too bad it broke down before it even got out of the factory"

finally i must say i know you've been watching a lot of top gear and clarkson vids but you've missed the one where he talks about why brits love open top motoring. but then again you've been watching top gear, and i'd bet anything you love it. and anybody who's stuck to TG might say on that front alone top gear is the best automotive nation. but my opinion is britain is the greatest becos of the massive contribution they've made to motoring. and i challenge anyone to come up with another nation who's made a bigger contribution.

and here's my two reasons why YOU believe Italians are superior cos...

a) on top gear they say you are not a true petrolhead until you've owned an alfa

b ) and they also say ferrari is a scaled down version of god

and this is what i really think

a) yes! i want to experience that rollercoaster of pain, dissapointment and agony. (i seriously mean it)

b ) modern ferraris are just big fiats with all the skyline electronics.

I'm sorry mate! but i havent got much faith in the italians anymore. i must admit when i was young my favourite toy was a 1:24 ferrari f40. and to this day its my favourite supercar. born on the same year, i think there's nothing more intoxicating than having one. but after the 355 i've been slowly drifting away from ferrari. they are just 2 boring nowadays. and not very pretty either. i wish they'd build cars with passion not maths. and i really dont care if they break down.

the alfa 8c? i think its the most beautiful car in the world. i'm even recommending a 159 over an x-type to my best mate. but sadly even my cousin, who was btw born in rome n now lives in milan, admits that the italian motor industry is run by a bunch of stupid blokes. and trust me this guy knows 2 things. and thats economics and italian cars. so italy might probably end up being another britain. but sadly not before it can make a bigger contribution to motoring

finally im sorry if i overdid but even i'm enjoying the freedom of a forum

now that Ladies & Gentlemen , Boys & Girls , is what you call a "rant" i believe

[MasterDon]

i just had a nightmare thinking of what would happen if TATA Group were to buy out BMW say!

but no chance of that yet - they've gotta double é group revenue to even dream of such an aquisition!!!

Maruti only revenue is a puny $3 Billion

LOL.devinda i think your nightmares have come true ne?....with TATA/ferrari deal.........what we thought were impossible two years ago are now a reality

[Pericles]

LOL.devinda i think your nightmares have come true ne?....with TATA/ferrari deal.........what we thought were impossible two years ago are now a reality

TATA/Ferrari sounds more like my nightmare. TATA/Land-Rover was Devindas

[Devinda_Z]

TATA/Ferrari sounds more like my nightmare. TATA/Land-Rover was Devindas

not impossible the way things are going...

i recall them showing an interest in Pininfarina as well!

...i'm yet to recover properly from that LR issue seeing as they're having problems paying for staff welfare etc still!

[GTAm]

oh great! its world war II all over again

ok lets start with rolls royce. the germans engineered the phantom. but they also designed and built a rival to that. which was... yes! the maybach. a jumped up c-class (yes i did say c-class) thats utterly vulgar. but why is the rolls royce so cool to behold? its the badge baby! its all about the badge! BMW not only bought the company itself but also the rights for the badge from another firm cos without it, it would have been just an X6 cum-too-early.

yes i do agree with you about the LS but does it ooze that british charm adored by millions of non of non brits worldwide??? fake walnut? and where's the lambs wool rugs???

btw as a fellow car nut i cant believe u walked right past the 600 grosser and named the 6.9 as a great merc. now thats a car that truly smashed the rolls. its just a shame you missed out on that point

so? the 1st beautiful aston was designed by the italians? ah yes! zagato rebodied the db4 much later in its life. i honestly respect the zagato. its actually on my list of top 10 most beautiful cars. but look at the original db4. i've been oogling it for ages. and when im in that market trust me its not the 007-esque db5 that i'll buy. its the original db4.

"Then how do you explain the millions of crap handling Austins and Morris"??? well compared to who??? the italians i suppose. but whats the point of having a beautiful car with beautiful handling that would corrode and fall to bits before it ever gets to a corner? im actually gutted u dragged austins and morris into this. ok they did make some bad handling cars. but what about the austin mini? (yep it was an austin before it was badge engineered by the british leyland whimps) and the morris minor? take some time off and drive one. just to see what i'm talking about. again if u consider urself a big car nut how did u forget lotus? who make the best handling cars in the world? even nissan resorted to seeking advice from them when they were designing the GT-R. now thats got "crap handling" rite?

there's no escaping the fact that brits invented badge engineering though. british leyland was the beginning of the end of the british motor industry. Mr. Austin's flawed vision, internal disputes, communism, and most importantly in house rivalry killed off the deal. taking half of the marques with it to the grave. what was left was a few honda engines that they strapped to some badly engineered rovers that were also killed off later by the british aerospace industry. do i blame them? no! after all they invented concorde!!!

i'm a big fan of the DS but why did you have to drag the nsu ro80 into this? ok it did win car of the year but do u realise the engines had to be replaced everytime it was tuesday? please find a better car next time if you want to reflect on other nations superiority in motoring.

and i sure can show you a car that the germans and the rest of europe hadnt even thought of back then. the range rover! not only it beat non existent off roaders from the rest of europe but also luxury cars as well. is it not a better invention than a people carrier??? and dont even get me started on esprits and jensens.

as for noise, its really a losing battle for the brits cos even the rover v8 had american roots. the italians always had the edge there. but germany and france? i dont think so. but i dont see the need to drag in the a and b series. u could very well incur the wrath of many mini fans here. but just for the record i compared noise made by the mini to that of a fiat 600. sorry mate! the 600 was just wheezy

as for affordable sports cars i still stand on my opinion of brits being the pioneers. the 356 is not really cheap is it? look at the lotus 7 (aka caterham). nothing can beat it for performance per pound. and jaguars, which seemed to pose the biggest threat to your opinions as you hinted in the last post, always made cars with big performance figures that can still be bought by a middle manager. remember the then superfast e-type v12 cost only 3 times more than the basic mini. ferrari anyone? oh no! only steve mcqueen was rich enough to afford one. as for the abarths and alfas i'd love to see one on the road but sadly they all seem to have seized to exist.

"both the Fiat 500 and the 600 predate it and have sold a lot more than the Mini. The 600 Abarth also has a more admirable competition history than the Mini Cooper" fiat a better seller? i almost died from falling off my chair while laughing. 600 abarth has more admirable competition history??? oh mate! you really killed me right there. dont know what you meant by admirable there. but im guessing it means something like "it was meant to take part and supposedly win the monte-carlo rally, but too bad it broke down before it even got out of the factory"

finally i must say i know you've been watching a lot of top gear and clarkson vids but you've missed the one where he talks about why brits love open top motoring. but then again you've been watching top gear, and i'd bet anything you love it. and anybody who's stuck to TG might say on that front alone top gear is the best automotive nation. but my opinion is britain is the greatest becos of the massive contribution they've made to motoring. and i challenge anyone to come up with another nation who's made a bigger contribution.

and here's my two reasons why YOU believe Italians are superior cos...

a) on top gear they say you are not a true petrolhead until you've owned an alfa

b ) and they also say ferrari is a scaled down version of god

and this is what i really think

a) yes! i want to experience that rollercoaster of pain, dissapointment and agony. (i seriously mean it)

b ) modern ferraris are just big fiats with all the skyline electronics.

I'm sorry mate! but i havent got much faith in the italians anymore. i must admit when i was young my favourite toy was a 1:24 ferrari f40. and to this day its my favourite supercar. born on the same year, i think there's nothing more intoxicating than having one. but after the 355 i've been slowly drifting away from ferrari. they are just 2 boring nowadays. and not very pretty either. i wish they'd build cars with passion not maths. and i really dont care if they break down.

the alfa 8c? i think its the most beautiful car in the world. i'm even recommending a 159 over an x-type to my best mate. but sadly even my cousin, who was btw born in rome n now lives in milan, admits that the italian motor industry is run by a bunch of stupid blokes. and trust me this guy knows 2 things. and thats economics and italian cars. so italy might probably end up being another britain. but sadly not before it can make a bigger contribution to motoring

finally im sorry if i overdid but even i'm enjoying the freedom of a forum

JadeyBlitzen, I was initially impressed by the length of your reply. Great reading I thought..... but sadly it lacks facts and I feel it's time to take off you union jack glasses so that you may see better.

So here goes,

The Rolls, Maybache and the 600 Grosser are all barges. The Rolls is a classy and charming barge, the Maybache is an ugly barge and the Grosser is an exessively barge that had to have enough room fo its rock star or dictator owner and his excessive ego! The key word is "barge". We are talking the greatest CARS here.

And the SEL 6.9 is one of the latter. It handled well enough to keep up with some sports cars of that era. None of the above can do that. Get it? Cars are different from barges. The Rolls Royce Silver Ghost was the world's greatest motor car once upon a time......

My point with the Lexus is that it destroyed the last tangible proof that Rolls Royces were not that great. The story was that in a Silver Cloud and 100mph the only sound you heard was the clock ticking. In a Shadow, Spirit and Corniche etc you heard more than that. But in the Lex even the clock was silent and for all its ugliness and fake wood it could run rings around auntie's barge.

Yeah yeah they're charming and they are big killers of trees, lambs and cows . But that alone can't make them great cars.

Dude the original DB4 was designed by Touring of Milan ! That's why it is gorgeous. Actually the chasis was the superleggera type that Italians were famous for. And like many Alfas it was done by Carrozzaria Touring! No ugly Brit eraser marks on the pure Italian lines!!! Time for you to buy an Aston history book! I love the DB4 too. And the Zagato. Thanks to Italy they got two great cars ! In fact 007's coolest wheels have been Italian designed eh? Esprit too, which I'll come to in a moment.

Sorry if you died by my Abarth Competition history part. Here's a stat to ressurrect you. Abarth ETCC manufacturers titles 4! BMC ETCC titles 2! 4 is double of 2 ! And didn't the Mini get disqualified from the Monte for infringing the rules? I really love the Mini and it's a great car and even wish to own one sopme day. It's among the most fun drivers cars that I've ever driven. But that engine is crap. I don't know about your wheezy 600 experience maybe the carb was not tuned or it had a cold. But I bet you any day that the Fiat engine revs a lot better than the A series. As for the 500 two pot it's got bags more character than both units.

What killed BL was above all the crap cars that they bulit and poor management. Yes the Italian had their fair share of poor quality, Russian rusty steel and bad management. But today the Alfa sud is a legend to people who really know and understand cars while the Austin Allegro was ........ uh words fail me here... help pls.

Another tiny exercise for you my young friend; in 1965 Peugeot launched the 204 with IRS and Mcpherson struts at front which were powered by an OHC engine that was transversely. In 1969 Fiat made a similar package with even better results. Mcpherson struts all round and brilliant handling coupled with torquey OHC engines. All this while the Brits floated around in their 1100s, the Pininfarina design the most attractive part of it. And your bog standard Escort had to make do with anciant OHV engines and wagging rigid axles at the rear!

No good sounding engines from Germany? Dude you dissappoint me big time. ANY flat 6 Porsche, most straight six BM the new V6 Mercs, The new Audi V8s, the Audi 5 cylinder turbo........ The French are not so much about engines as they are about suspension, yet there's the 2CV air cooled flat twin and the Citroen GS air cooled flat 4 that ooze character.

Ha ha you assume too much pal. I hardly watch Top Gear and I'm def not a fan of Clarkeson as a car tester. As an entertainer, yes he's the best, but his knowledge on certain things automotive and his recent contradictions make him not trustable. If you've watched his greatest 100 cars you'll realize what a load knowledge he lacks. One example is that he places the Alfetta GTV (which frankly is not the greatest as any Alfisti will assure you) as a greatest and ignores the most greatest cars they made. Shows how much he knows about the brand.

My heros are Paul Horrel, John Simister, Richard Bremner, Martin Buckley and Mick Walsh (come to mind at this late hour) as guys who truly understand cars and driving pleasure.

I'm really sleepy now.....so I'll come to your Ferrari maths, Lotus Espri Nissan GTRs and your Roman pal tomorrow. You need a break too .

Have a nice evening!

[JadeyBlitzen]

Mr. GTAm, i must admit i failed to grasp your point initially. but i see where you are going with this. but i'm wondering why you always bring up other nations in your quest to brand uk as a bad automotive nation. surely you are not running out of facts about italy that you can against italians are you? anyways lets stick to the subject. actually lets not. one thing that bores brits would be facts and figures. what they want is that x-factor. not a bunch of statistics that explain why something is so good, or as you say, bad. i'm not saying im a brit and i dont want anybody to think i'm a fob who's just discovered uk and worship them for every little piece of string they made. but its uk that showed me what motoring really is, being a gentleman driver, hating boy racers, DIY repair jobs, how to keep ur car running in the winter and how to stop it from breaking down in the summer, christian motoring, boring monotonous motorways, spine tingling back roads, how figures mean nothing, how engineering is boring, and finally, how passion and excitement is the order of the day, where usually italian cars score the top scores. but would i learn all these things had i gone to italy? (actually i was going to) i dont think so. and yes you are right about what u said in your first post. we like them cos we can relate to them. after all they introduced us sri lankans to motoring.

why i have to disagree with you is cos i dont really understand how you measure the greatness of a car. again, being very british, i must say its not the facts and figures. its something bigger and very exciting, certainly not something as boring as maths and engineering. i mean who can explain the greatness of the land rover? the land cruiser may have outnumbered it but did it steal the land rover's status as a great car? and that just the reflects the pointlessness of your argument about the 6.9 being a greater car than the 600. a better car? maybe. a great car? hmm... and who here would pick the 6.9 over the 600. wait i know! nobody!!!

i just dont know why we are being so pedantic about these 2 cars and more importantly why you are being so pedantic about about this whole italians are better than brits thing and making me write posts as pedantic as yours. in fact your being so technical in your reasoning i could have sworn you are routing for the germans if you didnt have an alfa as ur avatar. whats with all these comparisons anyway? what these people want to hear is a certain nation is good and an explanation of their greatness with words and letters and not figures and statistics. and how did we end up in a battle of 2 nations when all i did was just express my opinion in the 1st place. and did i mention anywhere that italy sucks on my first post? why i'm going to stop here and not argue with you anymore is if i did we'd probably go on till the end of time. and i'm not accusing you of anything but i've noticed you've made it your business to criticise everybody's opinions on this thread. mate just say italy is the greatest and show us your reasoning rather than "stirring a hornets nest". plus i'm the newbie here. so i'll just ignore the rantings of a senior and carry on believing what i want to believe. whereas you can try and find a few loyal followers to help italy overtake uk in this pole. ciao!

[GTAm]

Whoa whoa whoa hold your horses mate. It's nothing personal aginst you or any other member. This is a friendly discussion. So if I have offended you, very sorry. Not intentional. These discussions are fun activities and it's great to have as many different views as possible. Ok I might have gone a bit overboard ranting about the Brits as I'm quite dissappointed to learn that we (at least I) have indeed been brain washed for decades by a highly biased Brit press. But then I just had to . If you read modern Brit Classic Mags you would know that it is only now that those journos have discovered how great Italian cars are and how superior they were compared to their Brit or other counterparts. They too blame the contemporary Brit press for unloading a lot of bull on them. I'll select a few great articles from my magazine collection and give you the dates of those issues if you like.

Measuring greatness as you say can be done in many different ways and it depends what criteria we use for greatness. For example if we look at running the perfect business model and prioratizing criteria purely for economic benefits the greatest automotive nation has to be Japan.

But we know that you and I don't base our analyses on something so unsavory as we are true petrol heads and understand something a lot deeper than the millions of people driving non high performance Japanese cars and believing them to be great!

Maybe if its DIY, being gentlemen and hating boy racers etc for you then Britain very well might be great. If you went to Italy you definitely would have learned all this a much more I'm certain. Look at what I've learned sitting here in old SL and reading ?

Talking of which I notice quite a number of members have voted for Sri Lanka as the Greatest Automotive nation. !!!

However for me engineering IS very important. Engineering is the foremost thing that makes Lotus a great company. They've had one or two great looking cars too - Espri, Elite and S1 Elan. Technical advancement is SO neccessary to move forward. There needs to be developement and improvement. This is one reason the Brit industry failed. They were trying to live on their charm quotient.

And of course motor sport is the place where technical advancement is created to a large extent. So motor sport heritage is a must too. As you know Colin Chapman knew this.

I have no doubt that Land Rover is great. The greatness is its engineering mate. Without superior engineering how could it be the best off roader for decades without end?

The Pullman is a stretched Limo for wafting around and showing off. Any car with that kind of wheel base and overhangs is never going to handle. And the Pullman weighs around 600 kilos more than the 450sel....... my point is that the latter is the more competent car.

However that's not the gretest Merc for sure. It would be SSKs IMHO. Oh an I admire Germany too. They are brilliant engineers you have to admit. Even if they lack sheer purity they know how to perfect things better than everyone else.

But their cars lack soul and are a lot less exciting than Italian machines barring Porsche IMO.

Stirring a Hornets nest is good! And see what it has done it's taken this interesting discussion further. I find it a lot more interesting than discussing over heating problems with a Nissan Serena or choosing between a Vios and Yaris

And I'm thankful that you've re-energized this thread. It's great to have newbies with new perspectives. Pls don't be put off by my ranting. Discussions can only teach us more!

Cheers.

[Devinda_Z]

Stirring a Hornets nest is good! And see what it has done it's taken this interesting discussion further. I find it a lot more interesting than discussing over heating problems with a Nissan Serena or choosing between a Vios and Yaris

true that! makes for more interesting reading see the two of you go at it

its been rather pleasing to see that you'll have kept it clean - when post get that long one can't help but worry that it'll end up degenerating into a mudslinging fiasco!

[MasterDon]

The following is a mere observation/personal opinion,it is not meant to claim that one country is better than the other automotive-wise.

England and Italy are the top two for sure,but trying to determine which is best will end up in a blood bath,personally I tend to lean towards the UK,but by a very very narrow margin.it's true most italian cars have what we call "passion" and "soul" but i find most italians to be unatainable for the common people on the street,but england have always been a producer of cheap thrillers with it's TVR's,Caterhams,Nobles,You know the kind of car you buy to drive and not to be seen in,abd I am afraid to say most italian marques have become "too cool"(hence most ending up in the uncool section of top gears cool wall)..even the afforadable one's(alfa) are suffering from reliability issues so it will take brave man to opt for one,FIAT however remains the exception.so my observation is italy is exceptional at making cars that make great posters on a teenage boy's wall,while england is great at making cars that teenager get's to drive and own.

Anyway I think the coolest two cars of today are the Rolls Phantom Drophead and the Alfa 8c.and that just sums up where my loyalties lie.

disclaimer : I HelRazor am not in anyway influenced by the televison progrmme known as Top Gear or any of it's views,I however am an avid fan of the said programme purely for it's entertainment prowess,and always tend to take it's sometimes exaggerated/proposterous views with a grain of salt....smooches

[JadeyBlitzen]

bravo! i think you've just made the post that you should have made in the first place GTAm.

i'll tell you a very interesting story. i'm not very happy about the direction the motor industry is heading towards right now. and unintentionally the british motor industry probably had a good death cos their cars didnt quite live long enough to enjoy the modern diet of electronic everything. i mean when i start my car in the morning its a constant humm as the engine idles higher than usual to bring the engine to its operating temperature faster, i dont hear that occasional cough or bang or other imperfections that suddenly makes everything sound very interesting. its all filtered out by the electronics delievering pure tediousness. i find tediousness is very boring. that's why i dont like the germans. the bmw 3 series has the best handling chassis in its class not because it was designed with the blood sweat and passion of a man with grey hair and a pencil behind his ear. nope definitely not. its designed by a bunch of eggheads with glasses and lots of different coloured pens in their front pockets. nearly every car we buy nowadays is blanketed with a bunch of electronic gizmo and tree hugging devices. and most importanly we dont get cars with carburetors anymore. i know why its better to have fuel injection mated to an ecu. but how do u tune it??? i mean i'm sort of guy who sits down and thinks hmm what it my car had a carburetor instead of efi? think of the hours you can spend under your hood on a sunday afternoon adjusting various screws trying to tune it? i spoke to a mate recently who's just tuned his carburetor to perfection. i was green when we finished that conversation. i mean all i can do under my hood is take out my filter clean it and reoil it and expect that to make the car perform better. whats the fun in that?

now this is not why i'm very fond of the modern car. and thats exactly whats wrong with ferrari. i grew up with them admiring the passion and the individuality of every car. but then all of a sudden they started going very GT-R ish. i think it was a case of if you cant beat them join them. i'm not suggesting that the GT-R is a bad car. but its not really a hero's car is it? take classic f1, the drivers were real heros cos they fought with the car and physics not just to win a race but to stay alive. i'm happy to know there's a cushion filled with air popping out in front of me which can provide some protection in a crash. but traction control and electronic diffs? i think thats taking it a bit too far. anyways back to the original topic. when i was young ferrari was the one. astons were dressed up jags and the germans were boring us with their math. the japanese were exploiting that great asian trait of fancy gadgetary. i loved them when i couldnt read time and was crazy over digital wrist watches. and then i suddenly went all swatch. but meanwhile everybody has started going digital. astons started the "look i got no gear lever" flappy paddle nonsense. the germans had killed all the yuppies with boredom and strangely ferrari has let go of beauty and passion and started concentrating on electronics and aerodynamics. i'm left very much confused as just when i was starting to realise the beauty of analogue genius the whole world went electronic. i can't help wonder how the grownups feel about about this change. most of them probably like it. cos its very reliable and not so stressful. but say you still had a breakdown. now, can you fix it yourself??? insert (for example) modern alfas here

ok lets talk about beauty now. germans were again being very boring with mainstream shapes, whats the last german car that made you smile? for me its only the 300sl. the brits weren't far off with very conservative designs and only the really passionate builders like sir william lyons gave their cars a bit of flare. the italians were always at the forefront of style and beauty. i like to think the performance cars of italy dont look that great anymore cos they pay a lot of attention to aerodynamics. the 8c is an exception. it doesn't have the speed or the handling to match it looks cos its looks actually kill them both. anyways if you think aerodynamics are killing the looks i'm afraid i got more bad news for you. new legislations state the cars need to be build safer for pedestrians. so no more swooping bonnets or windscreens or pointy noses. so nowadays car makers have to stick to strict criteria in designing their cars. hopefully they'll make the best out of it. but still, cars will never look the same again.

so i guess that only leaves us with noise. which thankfully we can still enjoy even at a lower volume. hope they dont cap it altogether.

anyways i'm not going to engage in a battle to decide which automotive nation is the greatest. but i hope what i said helped you guys understand why motoring isnt the same as it used to be.

[Devinda_Z]

disclaimer : I HelRazor am not in anyway influenced by the televison progrmme known as Top Gear or any of it's views,I however am an avid fan of the said programme purely for it's entertainment prowess,and always tend to take it's sometimes exaggerated/proposterous views with a grain of salt....smooches

ROTFLMAO

[Devinda_Z]

so my observation is italy is exceptional at making cars that make great posters on a teenage boy's wall,while england is great at making cars that teenager get's to drive and own.

that about sums it up now doesnt it!

but in sunny Sri Lanka , neither scenario seems to apply ,

which then explains why this poll has the Japs in the lead with a massive 44% as "The greatest automotive nation" ! :wako:

[MasterDon]

that about sums it up now doesnt it!

but in sunny Sri Lanka , neither scenario seems to apply ,

which then explains why this poll has the Japs in the lead with a massive 44% as "The greatest automotive nation" ! :wako:

yeah..i guess most people just voted for the country their car is from,rather than thinking it through.