Hybrid Vehicles

[Californikan]

Here's some more info on hybrid vehicles from the world's biggest market for hybrid cars

California USA has the strictest vehicle emissions standards in the world. California standards for low-emissions low pollution vehicles:

A ULEV or Ultra-Low Emissions Vehicle is a vehicle that has been verified by the Air Resources Board of California, USA to emit 50% less polluting emissions than the average for new cars released in that model year. These are petrol and diesel vehicles.

SULEV: Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle. SULEVs are 90% cleaner than the average new model year car. These are petrol and diesel vehicles.

PZEV: Partial Zero Emission Vehicle are 95% cleaner than the average new model year car.. These include compressed natural gas vehicle and hybrid vehicles.

ZEV: Zero Emission Vehicle have zero tailpipe emissions and are 99% cleaner than the average new model year vehicle. These include battery electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.

Best Selling hybrid cars in the U.S. (please convert the fuel mileage into Km per liter)

#1. Toyota Prius Hybrid. About 2.5 millions rupees. 51 miles per gallon.

#2. Honda Insight Hybrid. About 2 million rupees. 41 miles per gallon.

#3. Ford Fusion Hybrid. About 2.8 million rupees. 41 miles per gallon.

#4. Honda CRZ Hybrid. About 2 million rupees. 37 miles per gallon.

#5. Lexus RX Hybrid. About 4.5 million rupees. 32 miles per gallon.

#6. Toyota Camry Hybrid. About 2.6 million rupees. 35 miles per gallon.

#7. Lexus 250H. About 3.7 million rupees. 35 miles per gallon.

#8. Ford escape Hybrid. About 3.4 million rupees. 34 miles per gallon.

#9. Toyota Highlander Hybrid. About 4 million rupees. 27 miles per gallon.

#10. Honda Civic Hybrid. About 2.3 million rupees. 43 miles per gallon.

[Californikan]

It's quite an irony that people who stretch their pennies to buy a Toyota due to its superior market acceptance seems to have completely overlooked the future resale value associated with hybrids.

If the hybrid sales does take off here i can picture in few years Delkanda area been filled with 'used' battery packs LOL....

The hybrid battery does not wear out so much with time, but more so with use (mileage). The hybrid battery in the Prius can run for over 300,000km before needing replacement. Remember, in a hybrid the battery is charged every time the driver uses the brakes so it is continually being charged.

Toyota has been selling Prius for 12 years now and has NEVER had to replace a battery early. A brand new battery costs about $2000 (Rs 200,000) in the U.S, but can be recharged for about $400(Rs 40,000). No doubt, Sri Lankans will find a way to recharge the hybrid battery (if it ever depletes during the life of the car) for much much less.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Californikan

[Sifaan]

Apologies for OT: I found it amusing to try to figure which images had been flipped (left-right) and which had not; counted 6 flipped for sure, 2 definitely not flipped and 2 not sure

[DevakaC]

I've lived in Colombo and Los Angeles and New York City. You can walk down Sunset Blvd in LA or 5th Ave in NYC and not smell vehicle exhaust emissions, even though there are thousands of cars on those streets. You cannot walk down Galle Rd in Colombo without chocking on the exhaust fumes. The thick black hazardous toxic vehicle exhaust fumes coming out by the buses, lorries, vans and 3 wheelers with no emissions controls in Colombo produces an environment that is much, much, much worse than even the worst U.S. city. For scientific data to back up what I am saying I refer you to this study on air pollution in world cities by the world Health Organization.

http://econ.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/EXTDEC/EXTRESEARCH/0,,contentMDK:20785646~pagePK:64214825~piPK:64214943~theSitePK:469382,00.html

Sri Lanka scored a poor 94 pollution level (a little worse than India but much better than Pakistan), the United States a 26, Sweden a very clean 13.

All your points, A, B, C, D on the causes of vehicle air pollution in Sri Lanka make sense. I'd add that it's past short-sighted government planning and policy that has created the air pollution problem in Sri Lanka. The govt could easily have mandated strict vehicle emission controls on all vehicles in the 70's and avoided this air pollution problem.

I guess comparing Colombo to LA or New-York is like comparing apples to oranges. But I agree with what your saying. But us still being a developing country cant expect things to over turn in a matter of a short period. Well of course they implemented the emission testing for revenue licenses as a start, at least this got people cleaning their injectors every once a year. There is a cost factor for everything and cleaner air, energy has an initial large investment that we as a country yet can not afford. Despite all that growth why are the skies in China filled with Smog? Their tradeoff for development is unclean air I guess. Can we replace the buses with gasoline ones? can we justify cleaner air for an increased bus fare? Can we put up nuclear energy power plants without any coal ones? The answer is blowing in the wind.

I think im deviating from the point of this thread.

But anyways today I was at a college Basketball game and just tried counting the number of Prius cars in the parking lot of about 500 cars and I counted more than 30. I thought that was a significant number in any one given place. Your numbers are making sense now.

Iv been in a co-workers Prius once and it handled pretty well in the highway and its accelerating was decent. And absolutely noise-less. I couldn't figure if the car was running or not.

@Sifaan - Im impressed to the amount of detail you looked in to, and most of them are flipped indeed.

[prasa]

when it's running on the electric assist, it has more torque than the conventional gasoline counterpart. more so than most of the vehicles in its class. but if u run out of electric squirt, then you're really stuck with a heavy car that has a 1.3liter motor. not pleasant. the electrics work much the same way the prius does.

as for maintenance, the agents are equipped to handle it, and are gearing up for the hybrid influx. this car in japan comes with a 8-10 year warranty on the battery, which leads me to assume that it's good to last that long at least. at the mo, it costs 500k to replace the battery pack once its cycle finishes. don't know what that will be in 6-7 years time.

i doubt the prices might come down to 2.2, but you never know tho...

and my brother sends his thanks for those kind words on his balls.

Thnks Bro..

This Topic getting really interesting...

I heard that gov Gasset has'nt come up yet on this... hope for the best tho....

thnks and regards

Prasa..

[isurujosh]

i think whenever a new technology comes then there's a lot of haa hoo about it. heck we are right now living through a phase where CVT gear boxes are a technology that is not fully uncovered both by car users as well as those who reapir it. but that doesn't stop any of us buying vehicles with CVT. i remember when we were young when EFI first came on normal jap cars as standard, there was so much haa hoo about it. now after quite a some time, that is the normal and nonbody wants to go back to carbs. i think hybrids is a good way forward to SL. i always say yes to constructive new technology. BRING IT ON!

[harshansenadhir]

The hybrid battery does not wear out so much with time, but more so with use (mileage). The hybrid battery in the Prius can run for over 300,000km before needing replacement. Remember, in a hybrid the battery is charged every time the driver uses the brakes so it is continually being charged.

Toyota has been selling Prius for 12 years now and has NEVER had to replace a battery early. A brand new battery costs about $2000 (Rs 200,000) in the U.S, but can be recharged for about $400(Rs 40,000). No doubt, Sri Lankans will find a way to recharge the hybrid battery (if it ever depletes during the life of the car) for much much less.

I have seen at least two of Prius with expired battery pack well before 300k. What people don't get is batter packs have an optimum working temperature designed with. Since agents are not ready to bring them down, I suspect the battery packs are not being tropicalzied to local conditions and that could result in short life span of the battery pack.

[Sifaan]

I have seen at least two of Prius with expired battery pack well before 300k. What people don't get is batter packs have an optimum working temperature designed with. Since agents are not ready to bring them down, I suspect the battery packs are not being tropicalzied to local conditions and that could result in short life span of the battery pack.

As I understood from some earlier posts, agents were trying to sell it - but didn't sell cos it was too expensive.

maybe the tropicalised battery made it much more expensive? and it's understandable if the recon JDM version had problems with our climate.

[Californikan]

I have seen at least two of Prius with expired battery pack well before 300k. What people don't get is batter packs have an optimum working temperature designed with. Since agents are not ready to bring them down, I suspect the battery packs are not being tropicalzied to local conditions and that could result in short life span of the battery pack.

Here is a statement from Toyota USA:

"The Prius battery (and the battery-power management system) has been designed to maximize battery life. In part this is done by keeping the battery at an optimum charge level - never fully draining it and never fully recharging it. As a result, the Prius battery leads a pretty easy life.We have lab data showing the equivalent of 180,000 miles (290,000 km) with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle. We also expect battery technology to continue to improve: the second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has 35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well. Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36% and we expect them to continue to drop so that by the time replacements may be needed it won't be a much of an issue. Since the car went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for wear and tear."

The US has a wide range of climates and temperatures from -80F/-62C in Alaska to 120F/49C in Nevada. Toyota does a huge amount of testing in all conditions to ensure its cars are reliable there (since it is their biggest market) and elsewhere. There are plenty of hybrids throughout the Middle East for example. So the Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive system has proven itself in all condition.

There were some issues with early models of the first gen Prius, especially the first year 1999. That is why the statement says '2000' instead of 1999 when the Prius first was introduced. As the statement says the battery was improved for the 2nd generation car (2004). Maybe those 2 local Prius were 1999 models. And who knows how much tinkering was done to those cars by local SL mechanics who did not understand the hybrid system.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Californikan

[jdnet]

Dude we all know how to google. Jeez. I think you fail to understand what's beuing discussed at the moment. When manufacturers make cars the make them specific to a region. Certain components and manufacturing processes will be geared to the target market. What Harshan was saying was that the used prius'(recons) that are imported to Sri Lanka were meant for the Japanese market, therefore they are not tropicalized and will not withstand the Sri Lankan environment as well as they will in Japan. Now should you buy a brand new one designed for the local market, it will be a different story.

So yes the statement by toyota may be true if you were using a car that was designed for your market.

Edited December 7, 2010 by jdnet

[Californikan]

therefore they are not tropicalized

Could you expand on what you mean by tropicalized?

What specific component changes are made to a vehicle for the SL market compared to other markets? What has been changed in a car for it to become 'tropicalized'?

[isurujosh]

Could you expand on what you mean by tropicalized?

What specific component changes are made to a vehicle for the SL market compared to other markets? What has been changed in a car for it to become 'tropicalized'?

i don't know about batteries but a very often found example of a car that did not suit local conditions was cefiro a33s. when dashboard of those were exposed to borne heat in colombo regularly the dash simply cracks into many pieces! i heard the same about some cars brought from europe too. so i don't diasgree that different cars are made to the liking and climate of different reigions. but i think what is good for japan is generally good for SL. what was the car that was made for japan that failed here becuase it did not suit our climate? i think none exists in that category. in fact if you wiki, then you find that some parts of japan have quite hot weather, especially during summer. as late as in 2007 there was once 40 celcius recorded there. i have a few friends there and they say it gets quite hot over there in summer. so i am sure JDM cars are made with somewhat hot weather in mind. check wiki on tokyo and you find during august temeperatures reach 30c.

Edited December 7, 2010 by isurujosh

[jdnet]

Could you expand on what you mean by tropicalized?

What specific component changes are made to a vehicle for the SL market compared to other markets? What has been changed in a car for it to become 'tropicalized'?

Source: Merriam Webster

trop·i·cal·ize verb \ˈträ-pi-kə-ˌlīz\

trop·i·cal·ized trop·i·cal·iz·ing

Definition of TROPICALIZE

transitive verb

1: to make tropical (as in character, conditions, or appearance)

2: to fit or adapt for use in a tropical climate especially by measures designed to combat the effects of fungi and moisture

First Known Use of TROPICALIZE

1885

http://www.insideline.com/toyota/corolla/thailand-toyota-to-build-hybrid-corolla.html

I canz googlez too.

[jdnet]

i don't know about batteries but a very often found example of a car that did not suit local conditions was cefiro a33s. when dashboard of those were exposed to borne heat in colombo regularly the dash simply cracks into many pieces! i heard the same about some cars brought from europe too. so i don't diasgree that different cars are made to the liking and climate of different reigions. but i think what is good for japan is generally good for SL. what was the car that was made for japan that failed here becuase it did not suit our climate? i think none exists in that category. in fact if you wiki, then you find that some parts of japan have quite hot weather, especially during summer. as late as in 2007 there was once 40 celcius recorded there. i have a few friends there and they say it gets quite hot over there in summer. so i am sure JDM cars are made with somewhat hot weather in mind. check wiki on tokyo and you find during august temeperatures reach 30c.

While i'm not trying to argue that JDM parts hold up much better than parts found in cars made in other markets, the same cannot be said for batteries. Heat and humidity does affect batteries and the effects would be more so on batteries notsuited for the market. For example On both of my cars and my wifes car in the U.S the regular car batteries lasted 7,9 and 10 years respectively. While temperatures do reach extremes every now and again, most of the time it's moderate . Although from what I batteries in the warmer areas do not last as long. You would be hard pressed to find a car in Sri Lanka in which the battery (maintanence free or not) has lasted longer than 5 years. Now while I'm speaking about regular batteries I would assume that heat and moisture would affect NiMH batteries used in the hybrid.

BTW Californikan, the press release you posted that mentioned the batteries have NEVER been replaced is from 2004. Since the prius was released globally in 2001 (and the early models did have battery problems) the battery would be only about 3 years old at the time of release. There HAVE been cases where the battery has been changed before the estimated 300,000 kms or whatever. Now if you take into consideration that people are going to import vehicles that are 3 years old (max due to regulations) then they are more likely to see battery problems arise sooner. I would challenge you to post a statement from toyota that was published in 2010 that state they have NEVER changed a battery on a prius.

[isurujosh]

While i'm not trying to argue that JDM parts hold up much better than parts found in cars made in other markets, the same cannot be said for batteries. Heat and humidity does affect batteries and the effects would be more so on batteries notsuited for the market. For example On both of my cars and my wifes car in the U.S the regular car batteries lasted 7,9 and 10 years respectively. While temperatures do reach extremes every now and again, most of the time it's moderate . Although from what I batteries in the warmer areas do not last as long. You would be hard pressed to find a car in Sri Lanka in which the battery (maintanence free or not) has lasted longer than 5 years. Now while I'm speaking about regular batteries I would assume that heat and moisture would affect NiMH batteries used in the hybrid.

may be i have to agree with you that batteries are quite sensitive to cold weather. right now i am in sweden and my phone battery looses charge 50% faster than in colombo due to extreme cold here now.

[Watchman]

may be i have to agree with you that batteries are quite sensitive to cold weather. right now i am in sweden and my phone battery looses charge 50% faster than in colombo due to extreme cold here now.

If i'm not mistaken batteries retain a charge LONGER in a cold environment. I'd imagine the change in your phone might be due to different level of usage..

[Sifaan]

may be i have to agree with you that batteries are quite sensitive to cold weather. right now i am in sweden and my phone battery looses charge 50% faster than in colombo due to extreme cold here now.

battery life in the context we were discussing it is different to what you are experiencing

as far as getting power out of a battery is concerned, warmer is better (within normal operating temperature ranges). that's why (in a camera) you could get a few extra shots by removing the batteries and warming them (rubbing to create friction heat).

however, a rechargeable battery is generally rated for a number of charge-discharge cycles, and the number of these will decrease as the temperature increases.

and this is a cumulative effect - it's not like exposure to 40 degrees will suddenly cause the battery to die or something.

so in US and Japan in Summer they will have hot temperatures and in those months the "wear" on the battery will be higher; but in colder months the "wear" is less and so overall you would still get many years usage out of it.

[Sifaan]

i don't know about batteries but a very often found example of a car that did not suit local conditions was cefiro a33s. when dashboard of those were exposed to borne heat in colombo regularly the dash simply cracks into many pieces! i heard the same about some cars brought from europe too. so i don't diasgree that different cars are made to the liking and climate of different reigions. but i think what is good for japan is generally good for SL. what was the car that was made for japan that failed here becuase it did not suit our climate? i think none exists in that category. in fact if you wiki, then you find that some parts of japan have quite hot weather, especially during summer. as late as in 2007 there was once 40 celcius recorded there. i have a few friends there and they say it gets quite hot over there in summer. so i am sure JDM cars are made with somewhat hot weather in mind. check wiki on tokyo and you find during august temeperatures reach 30c.

the dash worked well in japan because it was only exposed to the summer heat a few months a year - whereas in colombo, as you yourself said, it was exposed to heat regularly. (same argument for the batteries).

of course the car won't just "fail" in our climate! the engine will still continue to run (engine temps are much higher anyway), the suspension would continue to work, and so on. it's just that, compared to japan, the plastics may suffer due to heat fatigue, there can be more corrosion (over the long term) due to more humidity, there will be bit more wear and tear on some components (cooling fan, A/C compressor, etc.), there will be more problems with dust, etc.

unfortunately, (as Harshan pointed out to me ) tropicalization for the plastics means using a tougher plastic that will last longer but looks shitty

plus JDM built quality is generally better than the export quality for "cheap" markets like Sri Lanka...

[xXx]

BTW Californikan, the press release you posted that mentioned the batteries have NEVER been replaced is from 2004. Since the prius was released globally in 2001 (and the early models did have battery problems) the battery would be only about 3 years old at the time of release. There HAVE been cases where the battery has been changed before the estimated 300,000 kms or whatever. Now if you take into consideration that people are going to import vehicles that are 3 years old (max due to regulations) then they are more likely to see battery problems arise sooner. I would challenge you to post a statement from toyota that was published in 2010 that state they have NEVER changed a battery on a prius.

Good find Jdnet. After reading Californikan's quote from Toyota i felt like an ass for posting such negative comments on importing used hybrids.

[jdnet]

may be i have to agree with you that batteries are quite sensitive to cold weather. right now i am in sweden and my phone battery looses charge 50% faster than in colombo due to extreme cold here now.

Wait I didn't say colder weather is worse for batteries I said it was better thus letting me use my car batteries much longer. What I said was batteries don't last as long in really warm weather.

Edited December 8, 2010 by jdnet

[heavyD]

Maybe our baases will figure out a way to keep the batteries cool by installing freezers in cars. Or maybe they'll raindance their asses off to keep it raining all year long.

[Californikan]

When manufacturers make cars the make them specific to a region. Certain components and manufacturing processes will be geared to the target market. What Harshan was saying was that the used prius'(recons) that are imported to Sri Lanka were meant for the Japanese market, therefore they are not tropicalized and will not withstand the Sri Lankan environment as well as they will in Japan. Now should you buy a brand new one designed for the local market, it will be a different story.

I don't necessarily agree with this statement. Manufacturers do design some of their models for certain markets and they also design 'world cars' - cars that are designed to be sold around the world without big engineering changes. The Toyota Camry, Corolla and Prius, and Honda Insight, Civic and Accord are examples of 'world cars'. Take the Corolla for example. It is sold in 140 countries around the world. There are not 140 different models of Corolla for each market. The development and manufacturing costs of so many parts and varieties of Corolla would be unfeasible - it wouldn't make sense. Manufacturers engineer one basic car that can be sold all over the world and all conditions (good roads/bad roads, hot weather/cold weather, humid temp/dry temp) and have variations for differing markets. I've driven the local Sri Lanka Camry and Corolla. They are pretty much the same Corolla and Camry that I've driven in Europe and North America - looks the similar, drives similar, feels similar.

Toyota has done a huge enormous amount of development and torture testing to ensure it's Hybrid Synergy Drive system can operate in all conditions all over the world over the long term. It has to - the Prius is sold in over 70 countries.

By the way, back in Dec 2004 the local Toyota agent had a brand new 2004 Prius on display. I was on the way to Colombo and did a big double take when I saw it out of the corner of my eye. Couldn't believe it. I was ecstatic to see this super-low-emissions, super-low-pollution, super-environmentally friendly car for sale in SL. I spent an hour examining it carefully and talking with the sales agent. It was pretty much the same Prius that I know so well in in North America and Japan.

BTW Californikan, the press release you posted that mentioned the batteries have NEVER been replaced is from 2004. Since the prius was released globally in 2001 (and the early models did have battery problems) the battery would be only about 3 years old at the time of release. There HAVE been cases where the battery has been changed before the estimated 300,000 kms or whatever. Now if you take into consideration that people are going to import vehicles that are 3 years old (max due to regulations) then they are more likely to see battery problems arise sooner. I would challenge you to post a statement from toyota that was published in 2010 that state they have NEVER changed a battery on a prius.

You are correct, I didn't pick that up that the press release is from 2004.

With hybrid batteries mileage is much more of a factor than age. It is use and mileage that depletes up the battery. A 7 year old hybrid with 75,000kms is a much better and safer purchase than a 3 year old hybrid with 200,000kms.

I would add that the Prius is sold worldwide and has been on the market worldwide for ten years now so there is a lot of data on the car and battery reliability and dependability. Of course there have been some failures, but complete battery depletion of the even the early cars still is not an issue. The 300,000km battery life expectancy appears accurate.

If i'm not mistaken batteries retain a charge LONGER in a cold environment. I'd imagine the change in your phone might be due to different level of usage..

Wait I didn't say colder weather is worse for batteries I said it was better thus letting me use my car batteries much longer. What I said was batteries don't last as long in really warm weather.

If i'm not mistaken batteries retain a charge LONGER in a cold environment. I'd imagine the change in your phone might be due to different level of usage..

Guys, very cold climates reduces the battery operational efficiency in hybrids. This is well documented on the web and I know this from personal experience. In very cold weather it takes longer for a hybrid to reach ideal operating temperature making it take longer for the car's computer to turn on the electric motor and battery assist thereby reducing overall maximum efficiency.

Good find Jdnet. After reading Californikan's quote from Toyota i felt like an ass for posting such negative comments on importing used hybrids.

You're not an ass, bro. We are all learning.

[Californikan]

My current favorite hybrid - 2011 Infiniti M35 Hybrid (Nissan Fuga Hybrid)

(apologies in advance for some images being flipped)

[isurujosh]

If i'm not mistaken batteries retain a charge LONGER in a cold environment. I'd imagine the change in your phone might be due to different level of usage..

i hardly use it while i am here other than as the alarm (yeah i don't use it as alarm while in colombo though). but are guys sure charge will be retained longer when it's extreme cold and snow. i am talking in excess of -10 here and i clearly see a difference may be becuase my battery is very old. bdw do hybrid car batteries and phone batteries work in the same manner? is it same material composites? sorry i am a novice on battery technology.

[Sifaan]

bdw do hybrid car batteries and phone batteries work in the same manner? is it same material composites? sorry i am a novice on battery technology.

briefly:

normal car batteries are lead acid; have many benefits (e.g. can deliver very high currents) but were not suitable for consumer applications (cameras, phones, etc.) - bulky, heavy, etc.

early consumer rechargeables were nickel-cadmium (NiCad), were very popular but main issues were "memory" (if you partially discharged and then recharged several times, it "remembers" those levels and you can't discharge more than the memorized levels - that's why phones with nicad were supposed to be fully discharged ~1/week) and pollution on disposal (cadmium)

a somewhat advanced version is NiMH, which reduced the memory effect a lot.

more recently, proprietary consumer rechargeables are Lithium ion (Li-ion) or Lithium-polymer; much lighter than the nickel based technologies.chances are your phone has li-ion or li-polymer. but AA batteries are still mostly NiMH (and there's an advanced version - eneloop by Sanyo - that has a very low self-discharge rate).

hybrid / electric car batteries are NiMH.

but the principle is the same in all of them. there's a chemical reaction that can take place both ways; charging is when we supply power to the battery and the chemical reaction happens one way (energy is stored in the chemical bonds); when we use the battery the chemical reaction is reversed, and the breaking of the bonds releases the energy.

however, as the materials and chemical reactions change, various properties such as price, capacity (ampere-hours), no. of charge-discharge cycles, specific energy (energy per unit weight), energy density (energy per unit volume), self-discharge rate, internal resistance, maximum current output, will be different.

and many of those properties will vary with operating temperatures.