Selling Vehicles Without Cr

[charithtg]

Gentlemen,

For as long as i remember i have preferred Jeeps and SUVs in general more than cars. But i have only recently able to get a jeep for personnel use. During the search for the vehicle about an year ago i regularly saw people selling their vehicles online without CRs.

This can be very clearly and commonly seen when dealing with Jeeps (4x4s) like Landys specially. There’s no question about the legality of the said action. But what I’m trying to discuss here is, what are they really doing with the CR??

For an example there’s a LR on sale that i saw about a week back. And the description said bough from auction selling without documents. So i called the seller and asked what he is offering and he said that only the vehicle is available and he is using the CR for another vehicle.

So members if you can explain. What the heck are they doing with the book? I mean if they are using in for another car, which means the chassis no/engine no is to be changed of the other vehicle. So what will become of the vehicle’s chassis no of the original vehicle?

thanks..

[Crosswind]

The CR is more expensive that the vehicle itself. CR will be used with illegally imported vehicles.

Chassis number and engine number will be redone in the new vehicle. Usually they cut off the chassis number part, from the donor vehicle. Running a vehicle with any kind of a tampered chassis number is an offence. Your vehicle will be impounded and you will be subjected to a fine of 150,000 (that is, if the cops decide to enforce the law).

Edited February 24, 2014 by Crosswind

[charithtg]

Crosswind,

Thanks for the reply. so yes that is an option for what they will do. but for example for the landy that i mentioned above, what do u think that, that guy is trying to do? cut the no plate from the old chassis and weld it to the new one and how is he selling the old one with out a chassis No.

yeah if the doner vehicle is old and worth more as scrap metal yes it makes sence. but what is expected by doing the same to a running condition vehicle.

and further, if these kind of things are happening how are we to identify the chassis of a vehicle authentic or not.. any ideas.

im asking these things mainly because since im now adicted to the jeep and SUV world i have to be more educated when dealing with these kinds of people and other members in AL might see use for this as well.

[Watchman]

And to add on to what crosswind says, the person with the illegal vehicle will get in trouble for tampering with a chassis number, and the person with the original vehicle (which the CR belonged to) will get in trouble for running a vehicle without a CR.. There's no winners in that transactions.. and the person who sold the said old vehicle and new vehicle will disappear with the money.

You cant summarize everything on this kind of fraud as all vehicles are not tampered with in the same way... But in short if a vehicle's body looks too new for the reg number be very careful.. Everything else you just gotta be street smart and play by ear to spot a fake.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Watchman

[kush]

I remember sometimes back one of my friends had a certificate from the government analyst to state his vehicle was genuine.

Apparently when the vehicle was with the previous owner it was impounded by the police on suspicion and he had to undergo lot of trouble the get things sorted.

If you have any suspicions about the vehicle don’t touch.

[wolseley]

When I visit Customs I have seen dozens of such rotting away at their seized vehicle yards. If caught the owner will deffa lose his money as well as the vehicle. As watchman pointed out, many four wheelers with old number plates out there are with new bodies. So before a purchase ask for the Import Control License to import the body.

[The Don]

The only purpose of buying a vehicle without the registration documents will be for spares. For example if your vehicle was involved in a heavy accident, or requires restoration it could be very useful. But make sure you pay scrap value not the value of a running vehicle, even if the vehicle in quesion is in running condition.

Especially with 4x4 vehicles, you need to be very careful. Pajeros, Troopers, Land Cruisers and Land Rovers as well as Double cabs (most I've seen are Nissan's) were imported by the bucket load under body permit scams. The first body imported under a body permit was legal, but what the scammers did was to keep using the same old legitimate (but in poor condition) vehicle to import multiple bodies, and most which came were complete vehicles, not just bodies.

There are of course vehicles repaired legitimately using this method, particularly after the Tsunami. If the owner has documents to that effect, check its legitimacy with the RMV. They also sell for less as most were "upgraded" in the process of repairing, and depending on how the body was dismantled in Japan (some are genuinely cut using blow torches) you ended up either with a death trap or a good quality restored vehicle.

[charithtg]

Thanks Don,

tailgating on what you have noted, other than the Notes on the CR (i.e. convertions) what are other documents that are available with the kinds of vehicles (Legitimate) that you have mentioned. like modifications, new bodies n stuff.

All feedbacks above are greatly appriciated..

[VWvortex]

Avoid the hassle and just by a legitimate vehicle...Plenty out there for reasonable prices nowadays

[Watchman]

Avoid the hassle and just by a legitimate vehicle...Plenty out there for reasonable prices nowadays

Yep, I agree with VWvortex.

These con-artists are a step ahead of the law most of the time, so if you DO see a something shady you should step away at that very moment.

And it's not just a uninformed few who fall pray. There's even lawyers, doctors and other intelligent professionals who do their due diligence, but still end up having bought a illegal vehicle.

[Crosswind]

Thanks Don,

tailgating on what you have noted, other than the Notes on the CR (i.e. convertions) what are other documents that are available with the kinds of vehicles (Legitimate) that you have mentioned. like modifications, new bodies n stuff.

All feedbacks above are greatly appriciated..

Which part of "DON'T BUY" can't you understand?

[Watchman]

Which part of "DON'T BUY" can't you understand?

I guess we have our fair share share of askholes here.

[john cooper]

This is awsome One of a well know Garage in Gampaha had a Land Cruiser with 52 - but book is toyota hiace LH 20 petrol converted to diesel and for some reason on the book බදෙහි මාදිලිය is BLANK and they took the advantage FUNNY ah

Edited February 25, 2014 by john cooper

[charithtg]

Which part of "DON'T BUY" can't you understand?

I guess we have our fair share share of askholes here.

Guys..

Seriously what’s wrong with your attitudes? I was asking a legitimate question. I wasn’t asking what to look for when buying an illegal vehicle. I was asking what to look for if buying a vehicle that doesn’t have everything in its original status. Like many have discussed in AL, vehicles with legitimately modified or new bodies fitted with legitimate documentation. If you are not willing to share you knowledge or doesn’t have anything productive to share don’t bother commenting.

BTW if I’m correct I posted this thread on the section that is clearly mentioned as LEGAL and Ask for Advice.. DON’T BUY is a good advice for an illegal or shady vehicle. I was not referring to any such thing in my last question to The Don.

[charithtg]

Avoid the hassle and just by a legitimate vehicle...Plenty out there for reasonable prices nowadays

yes there are VWvortex, but recenlty i have seen so many shandy vehicles specialy in Jeep catagories. it is very hard to identify whats real and whats not.

[Hoonigan]

I guess you have to approach this as you would any other vehicle. Find one which you like and do the documentation properly and immediately to transfer it to your name. Don't let the seller do it for you, do the RMV run yourself so you know for sure what's being done.

[charithtg]

I guess you have to approach this as you would any other vehicle. Find one which you like and do the documentation properly and immediately to transfer it to your name. Don't let the seller do it for you, do the RMV run yourself so you know for sure what's being done.

yeah i always do that.. feel pretty good to get that CR with you name on it from the RMV counter. im not bothered about the RMV part coz i personelly do that. what im worried about is the changes people do that we cant realize.

i'll give you an example, about a year back a friend and i went to kurunegala to check out a defender for him. everything was good and we got a copy of the CR just to check with the RMV. my friends dad has used a fare share of landys and at the first glace he said that, this can be a single cab converted to a wagon. even the No of Seats in the CR indicated the correct number. he has guessed it from the weights of the vehicle.

what we realized in the end after checking with the RMV was that the book has been altered to look as an originally imported wagon but in reality it was a single cab converted with body kits..

see how extent people will go to hide things, from buyers...

[Watchman]

so the change in the CR was done by the seller? Not changed by the RMV as a vehicle-modification?

Changing the body type isnt illegal. It's just that you have to make a payment and have it changed in the book.

And mechanically, I dont think there's anything any simpler than a defender body swap. I reckon it would take a day or 2 at most if you have the body shell in one piece. And structurally it would be as sound as an original, just that the local perception of it being a convertion will still be there. Correct me if I'm wrong, even the newest Defender body can be fitted onto the Landrover110 chassis right? So technically it's legal cos the 'chassis' didnt change.

The dodgy ones are cases like prados/landcruiser VX that run on army/police SWB land cruiser II books, intercoolers pajeros running on SWB palath sabha pajero books, bog horns running on old trooper books etc.

[The Don]

Thanks Don,

tailgating on what you have noted, other than the Notes on the CR (i.e. convertions) what are other documents that are available with the kinds of vehicles (Legitimate) that you have mentioned. like modifications, new bodies n stuff.

All feedbacks above are greatly appriciated..

I'm stating this in public interest, not to encourage the OP to actually go and buy a vehicle.

Well first check the information available on the regustration book, and cross check with the RMV if the information is the same. In the most sophisticated version of this scam, what scamsters would have done is to take a book of the same brand as the vehicle in question, and paid somebody in RMV to alter the model. So while the book might look legitimate at first glance, there will be discrepencies between the records held at RMV and the information in the book and the vehicle and some of these maybe quite subtle.

If the vehicle looks too new for the model stated in the book, then that's a definite red light. Also certain types of vehicles were not imported to Sri Lanka in large numbers and they include the old Pajero flat roof models, Big horn jeeps etc so watch out for those.

If the seller claims the body was transplanted legally, ask him for the so called body permit, and verify this with the import export control department and the RMV. Also check if the current owner on the book matches the person selling you the car and the records held at RMV. Because another version of the scam was to falsify permits, or bring multiple bodies for the same permit.

Remember transplanting a body was not illegal sometime ago to replace a damaged or corroded body. For about the last decade or so however the import of complete bodies and certain panels like the roof has been under strict control. Falsifying documents, altering vehicle identification marks and importing vehicles without paying due taxes is STRICTLY ILLEGAL, and in thesse circumstances the law is applied on a buyer beaware basis. Ignorance will not form a defence.

Irrespective of all the crack downs bodies are still bought down illegally. For some of this particularly restorers are grateful as its a valuable resource of parts as the customs have also restricted import of used spares much to the annoyance of many of us.

[The Don]

so the change in the CR was done by the seller? Not changed by the RMV as a vehicle-modification?

Changing the body type isnt illegal. It's just that you have to make a payment and have it changed in the book.

And mechanically, I dont think there's anything any simpler than a defender body swap. I reckon it would take a day or 2 at most if you have the body shell in one piece. And structurally it would be as sound as an original, just that the local perception of it being a convertion will still be there. Correct me if I'm wrong, even the newest Defender body can be fitted onto the Landrover110 chassis right? So technically it's legal cos the 'chassis' didnt change.

The dodgy ones are cases like prados/landcruiser VX that run on army/police SWB land cruiser II books, intercoolers pajeros running on SWB palath sabha pajero books, bog horns running on old trooper books etc.

Body swaps are completely legal, and safe as long as the body was completely intact when fitted onto the chassis (not cut and bud). This is unfortunately only possible on vehicles with old school ladder chassis like Land Rover Defenders and double cabs (do old Pajeros, Troopers, and Land Cruisers have ladder chassis)?

There was a time when these bodies were freely available and on display in Delkanda.

Its pity cut and bud idiots stopped the import of half cuts and full bodies to Sri Lanka, because at the rate Jap vehicles from the past millenia rust, we could have done with the spares.

[nadisha]

I'm stating this in public interest, not to encourage the OP to actually go and buy a vehicle.

Well first check the information available on the regustration book, and cross check with the RMV if the information is the same. In the most sophisticated version of this scam, what scamsters would have done is to take a book of the same brand as the vehicle in question, and paid somebody in RMV to alter the model. So while the book might look legitimate at first glance, there will be discrepencies between the records held at RMV and the information in the book and the vehicle and some of these maybe quite subtle.

If the vehicle looks too new for the model stated in the book, then that's a definite red light. Also certain types of vehicles were not imported to Sri Lanka in large numbers and they include the old Pajero flat roof models, Big horn jeeps etc so watch out for those.

If the seller claims the body was transplanted legally, ask him for the so called body permit, and verify this with the import export control department and the RMV. Also check if the current owner on the book matches the person selling you the car and the records held at RMV. Because another version of the scam was to falsify permits, or bring multiple bodies for the same permit.

Remember transplanting a body was not illegal sometime ago to replace a damaged or corroded body. For about the last decade or so however the import of complete bodies and certain panels like the roof has been under strict control. Falsifying documents, altering vehicle identification marks and importing vehicles without paying due taxes is STRICTLY ILLEGAL, and in thesse circumstances the law is applied on a buyer beaware basis. Ignorance will not form a defence.

Irrespective of all the crack downs bodies are still bought down illegally. For some of this particularly restorers are grateful as its a valuable resource of parts as the customs have also restricted import of used spares much to the annoyance of many of us.

Thank you very much Don, for your very informative post...

[The Don]

I see the vehicle which triggered the conversation is now for sale in Auto Lanka. The strange thing is it says bought from Auction.

Now if the car was bought from a public services auction (like government department, police, the millitary) it would have registration documents, or the military de registration documents which would allow you to re register the vehicle under civillian plates

If it was from a customs auction it would be the same.

What has probably happened is that the owner has sold the registration to be used in another illegally imported vehicle.

Here is the funny thing, if the VIN is still intact in this vehicle and if it previously had civillian plates, and you can get the auction details and a legal document from the current owner (who hopefully bought it from the auction) of selling you the vehicle, you could technically go to the RMV and demand a new registration document. They might ask the government analyst to inspect the vehicle, but as expected it would pass with flying colours........ and you will be the legitimate owner.

But somewhere there would be another newer looking Land Rover running the same registration

[charithtg]

I'm stating this in public interest, not to encourage the OP to actually go and buy a vehicle.

Well first check the information available on the regustration book, and cross check with the RMV if the information is the same. In the most sophisticated version of this scam, what scamsters would have done is to take a book of the same brand as the vehicle in question, and paid somebody in RMV to alter the model. So while the book might look legitimate at first glance, there will be discrepencies between the records held at RMV and the information in the book and the vehicle and some of these maybe quite subtle.

If the vehicle looks too new for the model stated in the book, then that's a definite red light. Also certain types of vehicles were not imported to Sri Lanka in large numbers and they include the old Pajero flat roof models, Big horn jeeps etc so watch out for those.

If the seller claims the body was transplanted legally, ask him for the so called body permit, and verify this with the import export control department and the RMV. Also check if the current owner on the book matches the person selling you the car and the records held at RMV. Because another version of the scam was to falsify permits, or bring multiple bodies for the same permit.

Remember transplanting a body was not illegal sometime ago to replace a damaged or corroded body. For about the last decade or so however the import of complete bodies and certain panels like the roof has been under strict control. Falsifying documents, altering vehicle identification marks and importing vehicles without paying due taxes is STRICTLY ILLEGAL, and in thesse circumstances the law is applied on a buyer beaware basis. Ignorance will not form a defence.

Irrespective of all the crack downs bodies are still bought down illegally. For some of this particularly restorers are grateful as its a valuable resource of parts as the customs have also restricted import of used spares much to the annoyance of many of us.

Don,

thank you for that indepth reply. very much appricated.

[charithtg]

so the change in the CR was done by the seller? Not changed by the RMV as a vehicle-modification?

Changing the body type isnt illegal. It's just that you have to make a payment and have it changed in the book.

And mechanically, I dont think there's anything any simpler than a defender body swap. I reckon it would take a day or 2 at most if you have the body shell in one piece. And structurally it would be as sound as an original, just that the local perception of it being a convertion will still be there. Correct me if I'm wrong, even the newest Defender body can be fitted onto the Landrover110 chassis right? So technically it's legal cos the 'chassis' didnt change.

The dodgy ones are cases like prados/landcruiser VX that run on army/police SWB land cruiser II books, intercoolers pajeros running on SWB palath sabha pajero books, bog horns running on old trooper books etc.

Watchman,

This was what my friend said after he figured things out. Until that I thought that when anything is changed on a vehicle CR what the RMV does is change the main database of the particular vehicle and the CR is printed automatically. But according to my friend, what happens is a person has to do a type setting on a computer by looking at the database and then that is printed on an empty CR.

With that what the guys that I mentioned might have done is he has paid someone to type the No of Seats with the real No of seats available in the vehicle. That means the RMV data base still have the old No of Seats and the current book has a different one. soo for the looks of it the one who will be buying it thinks its a original station wagon, but when the transfer happens there is a very good chance that the new CR comes with lesser No of Seats.

So this is how extent that we have to check the CRs when buying a vehicle in SL, especially in regards to old jeeps n stuff.

PS - what you have said about the LR body and chassis are correct. They at all interchangeable with old n new models with out any big issues. But I think there’s an issue with someone doing a mod to a pick up where only two doors are available by adding three more and making in a station wagon right?? Thus changing the No of seat thingy.. please correct me if I’m wrong.

Edited February 26, 2014 by charithtg

[charithtg]

I see the vehicle which triggered the conversation is now for sale in Auto Lanka. The strange thing is it says bought from Auction.

Now if the car was bought from a public services auction (like government department, police, the millitary) it would have registration documents, or the military de registration documents which would allow you to re register the vehicle under civillian plates

If it was from a customs auction it would be the same.

What has probably happened is that the owner has sold the registration to be used in another illegally imported vehicle.

Here is the funny thing, if the VIN is still intact in this vehicle and if it previously had civillian plates, and you can get the auction details and a legal document from the current owner (who hopefully bought it from the auction) of selling you the vehicle, you could technically go to the RMV and demand a new registration document. They might ask the government analyst to inspect the vehicle, but as expected it would pass with flying colours........ and you will be the legitimate owner.

But somewhere there would be another newer looking Land Rover running the same registration

LOL yeah Spot on... would be déjà vu if the two happens to be on the same road by chance. I remember there was a pic about 5-6 years back in FB, with two black Land Cruisers having the same plates stuck in Colombo traffic.