Auto Drive Cars

[Duncan]

Hi guys

Call me old fashioned if you want, but cars of today are becoming more and more automated with very little driver involvement. All this in the name of technological advancements and safety.

In the old days a good driver would know much more about driving and about the car they were driving. However, today we are more and more used to some bell or whistle reminding us to shut the doors properly, not to leave the keys in the car, etc. To me this only breeds idiots for drivers.

Manufacturers (especially Honda and M/Benz) claim to be in the forefront of developing self drive cars of the future. They claim that the technology could be out in a matter of a few years.

Sounds amazing what technology they have in store for us, but in my opinion cars of the future are going to be a load of boring boxes on wheels with very little involvement from the user (I intentionaly did not use the word "Driver").

Whats your take on this guys?

Cheers

[neXGen]

Wel.. looking at things in an overall perspective bro.. vehicles are meant as a mean of transportation and not leisure.. with time to come nevertheless driving becomes a passion and at times an addiction requiring good control and a certain degree of involvement. Yeah.. i agree with ya bout it becoming a boring mobile box in the near future.. but looking from a transportation point of view, safety would obviously be a plus point considering the number of people being killed cuz of reckless driving/losing control etc..

I guess this is where ya draw the line between the time where ya gotta knw what you are doing and doing what you wanna do without knowing.. lolz.. technological advances cannot be stopped but i doubt whether the manual tranny would be dumped for auto based cars.

The future holds cars moving way faster than the current speeds and thus requiring more safety so it wouldnt be bad if there were many advancements in safety cuz human life aint transferrable into $$$$$$$.

Frankly dude.. looking at a technological point of view.. technology makes humans dumb by doing everything for them.. lolz.. wel.. welcome to evolution.. ;-)

Zz

[dhp]

I absolutely agree with you! I tend to use choice words when someone drives badly in their late model cars. esp when I was driving my old 88 Accord and someone next to me drove like and idiot. If you can't drive a car with all the modern driving aides and amenities, then you just need to go home and park it and take the damn bus.

There was an interesting article by jay leno on popular mechanics on the same subject, which hit home for me. When I was growing up in SL, it was almost a right of passage for a young man to become a good driver. To drive your car smart and smooth...

now, its about how many devices you can interface with your car's bluetooth and how well your car can park itself.

the smarter the car = the more retarded the driver will be.

personal attack - Thank You Mr. Bangle for idrive! (among other things)

Edited January 2, 2007 by dhp

[Duncan]

I guess the more dependant we become on machines the more evolved we are. Hhmmmm

I still think it's more to do with the marketing guys and the bean counters deciding on what cars should be like than true enthusiasts building master pieces.

But I do have to agree on the fact that, it is the way things are going to be (sadly).

[milindu]

Cars will always evolve for the convenience of the majority.

There was a time when people complained about power steering!! As for the masses we can feel the demand moving towards auto. (Note...hardly any of the new luxury cars are manual in Sri Lanka and 95% or more of the jap cars coming in are also auto).

At least for awhile....there will be manual shifts as options before sequential/ tiptronic/ steptronic types become standard.

You will be driving a classic one day with a manual box for pleasure.

[The Don]

Hi,

I think its also worth remembering that, not everybody drives because they are enthusiastic about driving. I think the vast majority of people drive because they have to.

And everybody has varying deggreees of strength and skills. For example, i know when all cars used to have manual steering it required a significant amount of effort to turn the wheel while stationary required quite a bit of effort and might have proved challenging to some.

Plus the amount of lives and accidencents and the amount of lives technology such as ABS and Traction Control etc have saved does put forward the case for the inclusion of new technology in motor vehicles.

I mean you need to be pretty dumb thesedays to crash an evo.

I think if somebody wants "a raw" driving experience, there are still motor vehicles out there like TVR which makes vehicles particularly for that category.

I don't personally think it makes sense to critisize or look down upon the inclusion of new technology which has made driving easier. they have made motor vehicles more reliable and safer, and it has happened throughout the history. I mean you cant quite compare an early ford to even a late 60's mustange can you?.

I think people should just have the choice to decide whatever they want and as long as there is a market for it automakers will always make cars to suite that market. The reason why there are so many auto cars out there is because most people would rather buy an auto car than a manual. This is not the auto makers deciding what we should have, but more, the auto makers giving us the choice and we deciding whether we like something or not. In the end the majority prevails.

The Don

[Blazin]

At the end of the day, all this new technology will be brought in to the market only if there is customer demand for it. So obviously if everyone is preopared to accept the self drive cars, then the manufactures will bring out the technology. But in my opinion there are too many people out there who enjoys driving, so you will never get entirely self drive cars.

[dhp]

Don - I see your point, my quarrel is not with having safety equipment in cars such as abs or srs, let me elaborate. I have issues with technology in certain instances..

1. When auto mfrs pack way too many distractive components into a car. Its bad enough when you see a blonde in your rearview mirror putting on makeup while on the phone and sipping her coffee while driving her suburban at 80 miles per hour (I am not kidding!) - now, add to that the GPS navigation in the center console, the two lcd screens in the two headrests blaring sound thru it's plethora of speakers all of which are distracting her attention from driving. When you climb into a ton of metal and start barreling down the road, you’re essentially in charge of a potential weapon of mass destruction the lest you can do is have some respect and pay attention.

2. When behind the scene corrections makes the driver over confident. Its comforting to know that a car will shift power and apply brakes to keep a car from spinning out but IMO it should alert the driver on what exactly happened - in a subtle way of saying "you almost bit the dust pal, if not for me". I have been in an e46 as a passenger while an acquaintance of mine was driving on slightly icy roads with the dsc light flashing, the guy kept pushing simply because he had traction control. Most new cars do the work without giving the driver much feedback, which in turn leave him/her clueless about the tru limitations of the car. I have pushed a few cars to its limits (in controlled environments on ice and snow – large vacant parking lots J) and I can guarantee that abs and dsc are not perfect and can sometimes work against you.

3. last but not least, when auto mfrs take control away from the driver rendering him or her a retard. Especially, when the makers of the ultimate driving machines (who’s claim to fame was to make drivable cars) starts taking control away from the driver and starts making cars for yuppies to drive to starbucks to check their email! It would be nice if they at least offered a moderately priced option for the enthusiast (w/o idrive and w/ 3 pedals).

In theory if you make cars that would almost drive themselves drivers could pay more attention to the road but in reality they will find something else to spend that attention on.

[Duncan]

Statistics actually prove that with the introduction of more and more driver aids, the number of accidents have also increased. Simply because drivers think that they are in some kind of an intelegent moving machine which is invincible. This is why I said technology breeds idiots. I can remember reporting on this forum how a guy in a new Range Rover fliped it in the rain whilst doing 150km/h+ and then blamed the traction control for his mishap.

Whilst not everyone is an enthusiast, there used to be a time when every driver took pride in being good drivers. Perfecting their civic right to own a car and share the roads with others.

But the problem today is...no body gives a damn and expects everything to be done for them.

What I also don't understand is, if the manufacturers know very well that the majority of the drivers are not enthusiasts and simply want a vehicle for transportation purposes, then why in the world turn out cars with the manufacturer claiming mind blowing 0 - 100 times and unpractical top ends?!

I think it should be made mandatory that every manufacturer offer a driver training session across the entire range produced. Not just for the top end models.

Another thing that gets to me are SUVs. Manufacturers claim that in today's market place 85% of buyers don't really go off road, that is why most SUVs are more road biased than off-road. Then why install 4WD trannys in the first place? Surely they can reduce costs by keeping in 2WD format with 4WD as an option! Then some of this 80% decides to go off road and be Mr.Muscle and destroy the environment. Who loses.......we the enthusiasts!

In my opinion it is all marketting and bean counters these days, and they don't really give a damn as long as they are surviving in the cut throat world of commerce.

By the way.....I know of lots of people who have crashed EVOs. And they weren't even racing.

[Elvis_Pil]

Hi,

I mean you need to be pretty dumb thesedays to crash an evo.

Sorry man dont agree with you on that one. Driving Evos & Stis is a totally different ball game. Trust me it takes a decent level of skill to corner one 'em And with its rally bred suspension, Dif, & AWD system that encourages oversteer. Enough and more smashed Evo's around- even amoung the few we have in SL.

[dhp]

'Pilawoos' date='Jan 3 2007, 11:09 AM' post='35038']

Sorry man dont agree with you on that one. Driving Evos & Stis is a totally different ball game. Trust me it takes a decent level of skill to corner one 'em And with its rally bred suspension, Dif, & AWD system that encourages oversteer. Enough and more smashed Evo's around- even amoung the few we have in SL.

I am not bragging as I dont own most of them but; I have driven a 67 camaro, early 70's trans am and a few other old muscle cars and most of them would break the rear end loose on 2rd gear on a cold dry road. You have to clinch it pretty tight when driving one in the slightest or drizzles. I have also driven a few RWD cars (e39-long term, e46, e36, 944, celica, 86SR5 etc.) and I have to say that it's easy to get tail happy in any of the above cars, esp if there's even a slight mist on the road.

now, compared to those, I felt pretty safe on an evo and and sti (02-03models test drive). The reason the evos and sti's are so popular is because they're well balanced and easy to control and lets not forget the AWD! I am with Duncan on this...the only thing scairy about the evos are the hp/weight ratio but the car is more than capable of compensating for that with all of its “features”.

IMHO its a whole lot easier to drive an evo than to drive almost any oldschool rwd car. However, in hindsight Pila you proved my point, all the extra features in a modern car doesn’t make it a safer car...most of the kids that wreck their evos, stis, neon srts never really got to safely learn the car’s limitations.

just curious; howmany of those crashed evos in SL were pushing it on public roads?

Edited January 3, 2007 by dhp

[The Don]

I aggree with everything dhp and duncan say, and pila i was quoting Mr Clerkson, i mean with all the new technology in the new Evo's active yaw control and traction control, for the amount of power it puts on the road, its pretty hard to crash it, but then again there are idiots no matter how much technology you may put in a car still will manage to crash in.

i mean compare that to a koneigsegg CCX no traction control 820 BHP and even the Stig crashed it .

About the new gizmo's being distracting, tell me about it, as i wrote in another post, i drove the new 307, and the automatic wipers were driving me nuts, cos they were coming on during light drizzle and obscuring my view intsread of cleaning the windscreen, apart from other little annoying Gizmo's.

i think the bottom line is and i think everybody is aggreement,

Technology will keep throwing more and more Gizmo's in motor vehicles.

As long as there is demand for that sort of technology they will be offered in motor vehicles.

It may have caused certain retards to drive like the retards they are on the road.

But isnt the answer to that problem more stringent enforcement of road rules, and renewable driving licenses.

People who do not know the limits of their skills would always do stupid things, it isnt necessarily connected with technology, on the same light it can be argued for the number of such people who drive as such, the number of fatalities would be much higher if not for the technology that helps some of these people stay on the road.

And the rise of accidents can also be attributed the increase in the number of cars on the road and the number of people driving.

May i also say this, i have always liked driving completely manual cars, i used to drive a completely manual mazda, and now (occassionally) drive a fairly manual Mirage, and went to the extent of getting a dealer in SL to put an order for a Manual transmission car, which i didn't go ahead with since i had to leave. So what i am saying is I myself find some of these Gizmo's distracting and sometimes quite annoying, and sometimes takes out the plessure of driving. So i am not defending them, merely trying to come to terms with their existence.

'Pilawoos' date='Jan 3 2007, 11:09 AM' post='35038']

Sorry man dont agree with you on that one. Driving Evos & Stis is a totally different ball game. Trust me it takes a decent level of skill to corner one 'em And with its rally bred suspension, Dif, & AWD system that encourages oversteer. Enough and more smashed Evo's around- even amoung the few we have in SL.

I am not bragging as I dont own most of them but; I have driven a 67 camaro, early 70's trans am and a few other old muscle cars and most of them would break the rear end loose on 2rd gear on a cold dry road. You have to clinch it pretty tight when driving one in the slightest or drizzles. I have also driven a few RWD cars (e39-long term, e46, e36, 944, celica, 86SR5 etc.) and I have to say that it's easy to get tail happy in any of the above cars, esp if there's even a slight mist on the road.

now, compared to those, I felt pretty safe on an evo and and sti (02-03models test drive). The reason the evos and sti's are so popular is because they're well balanced and easy to control and lets not forget the AWD! I am with Duncan on this...the only thing scairy about the evos are the hp/weight ratio but the car is more than capable of compensating for that with all of its “features”.

IMHO its a whole lot easier to drive an evo than to drive almost any oldschool rwd car. However, in hindsight Pila you proved my point, all the extra features in a modern car doesn’t make it a safer car...most of the kids that wreck their evos, stis, neon srts never really got to safely learn the car’s limitations.

just curious; howmany of those crashed evos in SL were pushing it on public roads?

ha ha DHP, i think you get my point, was not trying to say new Evo's are un crashable, but merely saying if not for all the electronics, a lot more people would not be able to handle them.

Well i think one has to remember that there aren't that many Evo's in SL, so even the crashing of one is a significant statistic, I know one had a fairly bad crash last year, and i know of another one which had a busted gear box thanks to the driver revving up too high on gear i think.

[dhp]

WHAT IF, just WHAT IF there was a minimum education limit to get a Driver's license?

I realize that this would put a lot of ppl out of a job (3wheelers, busses, etc.) but how can u expect someone without at least an O/L education to fathom the basic principles of physics? such as momentum & minimum stopping distance. Maybe there can be a course for proffesional drivers to teach these principles. just food for thought..

Edited January 3, 2007 by dhp

[The Don]

WHAT IF, just WHAT IF there was a minimum education limit to get a Driver's license?

I realize that this would put a lot of ppl out of a job (3wheelers, busses, etc.) but how can u expect someone without at least an O/L education to fathom the basic principles of physics? such as momentum & minimum stopping distance. Maybe there can be a course for proffesional drivers to teach these principles. just food for thought..

ha ha never going to happen is it, but the sad thing is what about all the educated people who drive like idiots ? buses and 3 wheelers always a nightmare, but not to mention all the rest who apparently cant see lane deviders, dont know where the signal light switches are, have no perception of hazards, or have absolutely no care for anybody on the road apart from themselves, though even that i doubt.

incidentally i think you get the above jokers in any country, not a sri lankan problem certainly.

maybe as duncan and you say, these new gizmos in cars have made these jokers feel even more super human. But then again the old knife story comes to mind, it can be a tool and a weapon, but can the knife be held responsible for the actions of retard monkies (i certainly do not want to disrespect our closest cousins who most of the time seems to have a lot more intelligence than some of these people) who have obtained the use of the knife

[mazdaspeed]

ha ha never going to happen is it, but the sad thing is what about all the educated people who drive like idiots ? buses and 3 wheelers always a nightmare, but not to mention all the rest who apparently cant see lane deviders, dont know where the signal light switches are, have no perception of hazards, or have absolutely no care for anybody on the road apart from themselves, though even that i doubt.

incidentally i think you get the above jokers in any country, not a sri lankan problem certainly.

maybe as duncan and you say, these new gizmos in cars have made these jokers feel even more super human. But then again the old knife story comes to mind, it can be a tool and a weapon, but can the knife be held responsible for the actions of retard monkies (i certainly do not want to disrespect our closest cousins who most of the time seems to have a lot more intelligence than some of these people) who have obtained the use of the knife

Ya I agree with Duacan – Cars are becoming little makeup boxes very sweet and groovy interiors with nice lights etc… Yet it’s very sad to see the old cars moving out of the picture…. I learned to drive on my fathers Ford Escort GT – no power steering, no power mirrors….no ABS no reveres sensors… but it was a lovely experience.

I personally prefer manual gears over Auto, it took me 2 months to find a decent manual Mazda. The coming to Don’s point……

Yes I strongly agree this fancy gizmo’s have given drivers to think they got the wings to fly…. Making driving a nightmare here in SL. True bus & 3 wheelers are not the only jerks around- lot of educated people too behave like idiots… and have no discipline what so ever.. Just because 1 drives a large 4 wheel jeep does not mean that all the other people should just get out of his way ( I’m not targeting any specific individual or brand of vehicle here- just in general)

It would be nice to see some of the educated people behaving civilized – starting off with a simple “thank you “toot of the horn when some 1 lets you pass/gives way would be a good start…

Mazdaspeed

[harshansenadhir]

thought to add my 2 cents as a daily driver who drives a 1983 504 which has nothing than air conditioner. No power steering, no power mirrors, no power shutters .. but I love driving this car simply because 100% i'm the controller of the car. when i break its me who decide on breaking distance and the breaking power, when i turn the wheel its me who decides how much turn it needs and the turn itself is continuous and no variable like in power steering. so am 100% sure on the timings. needless to say the struggle on automatics when it becomes to overtaking or sudden power boost.. if you kick down yes autobox will respond with changing the gear to the previous gear which makes a lag in your pickup.. meantime i manage to push the clutch a bit more 'n kick down 'n rev up the old machine 'n then engage the clutch ... bingo .. it jumps forward and you have all the power you need for the overtake.

well thats my story who hates automation in motor vehicles and these smooth hanky panky things on the dash which feels me like c'mon its not a guys' thing.. let the ladies to fancy with those smooth touch buttons ...

Edited January 4, 2007 by harshansenadhir