Greatest Automotive Nation?

[isurujosh]

Greatness is such a subjective thing, isn't it. So your choice is as good as mine. So please take some time out to vote for the greatest automotive nation in your book and state why.

I have included...

UK: This is my choice. More I read about great cars more I am inclined to believe that Brits are the best in building cars. Be it the Mclaren F1, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Lotus, Caterham, Aston Martin they all are very British and have some mystique greatness. Most other car makers in the world borrow expertise from british, sometimes eventhough the nameplate might read non-british the technology and philosophy really come from Britain. I recently even read that although Audi is renowned for 4WD quattro, the first 4WD cars were from Britain. But like all British car makers thay had not made profits and been forced to shut down. I don't think greateness has to be associated with "profits" so I vote Brit

Germany: Need I say more... Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, Audi, VW ... (Or eventhough Bugatti is really a French nameplate, I consider Veyron German more than any other)

Italy: Characterrised by the ever so raging and fierce battle between Farrari and Lambo.

Japan: They certainly make things perfect.

USA: I remain silent and let you decide.

France: Oh! they made the Bugatti Royale and they own the nameplate.

Sri Lanka: At the end of the day, we make the most out of the least . And how can I not give any choice for the Patriotic membership of our forum.

I hope I have not missed any other serious contender for this title. (PLZZZZ not India Ok!)

[isurujosh]

as for Aston Martin -although having done well with the new 3 - DB9,Vantage&Vanquish - Ford is selling it at 500Million GBP if i'm not mistaken

yah they desperately need cash in US operations.. restructuring and stuff!

[Pericles]

Top Gear is very bias when it comes to British makes. Its mainly due to policies here anyone with money can buy british firms. So it is a common thing to see even firms doing well here are bought over by foreigners. In that case I think Land Rover has enough sales to servive without any foreign cash inputs. (I am not sure about Aston Martin finacial situation though) I think when it comes to the world big playes its sort of a prestrige to take over a british company. Good for their marketting and image building.

lets say Micra is about to take over Land Rover.. what sort of publicity stunt that gonna be for Micra ?

Ur not paying attention. Astons and Land Rover are both owned by Ford.

And Micra is a Nissan car, not a company.

Edited February 5, 2007 by Pericles

[Devinda_Z]

Ur not paying attention. Astons and Land Rover are both owned by Ford.

And Micra is a Nissan car, not a company.

only cars with mass market appeal and sales have cash - thats the very reason why FIAT who dont have a single luxury car OWN Masserati & Ferrari !!!

LR may sell well - but its still a niche player given they only sell 4WD SUV's - os in order for them to survive they need a parent company to provide money for R&D in particular and Mechanicals

thats why in its 60 yr history LR has never ever been independantly run!

é American's arent outta the game yet - é BIG 3 from DETRIOT own large stakes in oh so many car companies accross the board from Volvo to LR to Suzuki to Daweoo to Subaru

&even é merged Titans Daimer-Chrysler!

[Asanka76]

Ur not paying attention. Astons and Land Rover are both owned by Ford.

And Micra is a Nissan car, not a company.

Its Micro.. M.I.C.R.O to be exact. (a simple A can make a big diff ).

Anyway when we talk about financial terms we have to focus on individual financial situation of the companies. I am sure none of these parent companies will continuously provide funding, in a case child company becoming yet another white elephant for them. To have exact idea of how these companies are doing you have to pay individual attention. Not from the point of view who own them

[Supra_Natural]

My vote would have to be for germany..... for one thing, the great brands Mercedes, BMW, Audi, VW etc....

not to mention all those influential german machines that created segments....... VW Beetle, VW Golf, Mercedes 300SL Gullwing (The first "Supercar", and Coolest car in the world, according to CAR), BMW 2002, BMW 3 Series, BMW M5, etc etc

and also because the germans have contributed in some way to some of the most fantastic / most significant cars in the world....

eg, Bugatti Veyron - Done by VW group, Rolls Phantom - BMW, all new generation Bentleys - VW again.... the list goes on

Also my personal choice for "best car ever made", the Mclaren F1, utilized an engine created by BMW.....

and last but most certainly not least, it was the Germans who Invented the Car

[Devinda_Z]

and also because the germans have contributed in some way to some of the most fantastic / most significant cars in the world....

eg, Bugatti Veyron - Done by VW group, Rolls Phantom - BMW, all new generation Bentleys - VW again.... the list goes on

i concede that é enthusuasm of German engineeres has led to some remarkable machines - & as u so rightly mentioned there'd not been a Car @all if not for 'em but

think what would have happend if é French Bugatti element were replaced by é German "VW' marque - would é world hail é Veyron as é 'great car' its now deemed ??

&on é subject of german's & greatness ( which i'm in no way denying) ....remeber é Supposedly brilliant VW Phaeton...("great" - doubt it)

slap on é "flying B" - enter "FLYING SPUR" = GREAT

....em brits somehow nail that greatness thing...whether they build own/build em of not!

(THAT is é essence of motoring 'Nation's' greatness!)

[isurujosh]

only cars with mass market appeal and sales have cash - thats the very reason why FIAT who dont have a single luxury car OWN Masserati & Ferrari !!!

LR may sell well - but its still a niche player given they only sell 4WD SUV's - os in order for them to survive they need a parent company to provide money for R&D in particular and Mechanicals

thats why in its 60 yr history LR has never ever been independantly run!

é American's arent outta the game yet - é BIG 3 from DETRIOT own large stakes in oh so many car companies accross the board from Volvo to LR to Suzuki to Daweoo to Subaru

&even é merged Titans Daimer-Chrysler!

subarus share of GM (if i remember right) were sold to toyota... with that toyota now uses a subaru plant in US to build toyota cars...

[Supra_Natural]

i concede that é enthusuasm of German engineeres has led to some remarkable machines - & as u so rightly mentioned there'd not been a Car @all if not for 'em but

think what would have happend if é French Bugatti element were replaced by é German "VW' marque - would é world hail é Veyron as é 'great car' its now deemed ??

&on é subject of german's & greatness ( which i'm in no way denying) ....remeber é Supposedly brilliant VW Phaeton...("great" - doubt it)

slap on é "flying B" - enter "FLYING SPUR" = GREAT

....em brits somehow nail that greatness thing...whether they build own/build em of not!

(THAT is é essence of motoring 'Nation's' greatness!)

Agreed..... this is very much a matter of personal taste innit? but honestly bro, england probably doesn't qualify anymore...... maybe 25-30 years aago, but not in the present context......

[isurujosh]

Also my personal choice for "best car ever made", the Mclaren F1, utilized an engine created by BMW.....

Mclaren in formula 1 had run Honda engines during the days Mclaren f1 "concept" was being developed and mclaren had initially asked honda to source the engine, AND GUESS WHAt HONDA DID... THE FREAKING JAPZ HAD TURNED DOWN THE OFFER ... the foolish japz cud hv proved summin to the world and they let go of the chance

Agreed..... this is very much a matter of personal taste innit? but honestly bro, england probably doesn't qualify anymore...... maybe 25-30 years aago, but not in the present context......

nahhhhhh... i think the mystique british appeal is more relevant today more than ever!... again all these are personal opinions and are yet just as exciting to talk about!

[Supra_Natural]

German cars hvae no heart - all engineering - good yes - but take the term " GREATEST" its not a quanltifiable thing backed up by reliablity charts n fuel econlmy

think from the heart.... (é only german thing with that would be HERBY!!! )

Ahem...... Does the name "Porsche 911" mean anything to you???

no heart indeed....

Mclaren in formula 1 had run Honda engines during the days Mclaren f1 "concept" was being developed and mclaren had initially asked honda to source the engine, AND GUESS WHAt HONDA DID... THE FREAKING JAPZ HAD TURNED DOWN THE OFFER ... the foolish japz cud hv proved summin to the world and they let go of the chance

yeah man, imagine the Mclaren with a honda VTEC 12 Cylinder motor with a 11,000RPM Redline........ Wow.....

[Devinda_Z]

Ahem...... Does the name "Porsche 911" mean anything to you???

no heart indeed....

i dunno abt "heart" in a 911 - all i know its got Big HEAVY bum!!

[Pericles]

yeah man, imagine the Mclaren with a honda VTEC 12 Cylinder motor with a 11,000RPM Redline........ Wow.....

Dude, if those graphics in the F1 races they show on the telly are correct, it F1 engines rev to 16-17k rpms. Besides, Honda engines do exist in F1. In two teams. Dunno if they have vtec. They certainly haven't won much

[GTAm]

If you look at invention and innovation apart from Karl Benz making the first ever car,

1. The 1st Monocoque body - All cars today are built this way - The first such car was the Lancia Lambda V4 which was launched in 1922. - Italy

2. The first true 2+2 GT was the Lancia Aurelia B20 - also one of the most beautiful cars ever - 1950 Italy

3. Hydraulic suspension - Citroen DS19 - 1955 France

4. First glass fibre Monocoque body - Lotus - 1957 UK

5. First V6 - Lancia 1924 prototype and production in 1950 in the Aurelia - Italy

6. Miniaturization - 03 cars vy for this spot - The Fiat 600 1955 Italy, The Fiat 500 1957 Italy and the BMC mini 1959 UK

7. The 1st MPV - Fiat 600 Multipla 1955 - Italy

8. First Rotary Engine - NSU Ro80 - 1967 - Germany

9. First mid-engined supercar - Lamborghini Miura - 1969 Italy

10. First production Turbo - BMW 2002 in 1973 - Germany

11. Luxury off roader - Range Rover - UK 1970.

12. 4wd - Yes the the Jensen FF was first but the true performance 4wd that's the spiritual father of the Evos and STis is the AUDI quattro - 1981 Germany

And here are some other innovations that are not so well known

1. Aluminium body - Napier 9hp in 1902 - France

2. V8 engne - De Dion-Bouton CL 6.1litre in 1910 France

3. All independent Suspension - Cornelian - USA 1914

4. First car with radial tyres - Citroen traction Avant with Michelin X in 1949 France

5. Aerodynamics - Rumpler Tropfenwagen - 1921 - Germany

6. Pneumatic tyres - Peugeot 'L'Eclair' with Michelins 1895.

7. Disc brakes - developed by Dunlop UK 1952 Jaguar for the Mille Miglia race

8. Power Steering - 1903 Columbia Motors Truck 1903 (electric), hydraulic - Chrysler Imperial 1951 both from the USA.

9. Air con - Nash 1938 USA.

10. Fuel Injection - Mercedes 1952 300SL Gullwing - Germany

11. ABS - Jensen FF 1967 - UK

12. Aluminium alloy wheels - Bugatti type 35 1926 - Italian in France

13. Power windows - Daimler DE36 1946

14. Servo asisted brakes - Hispano-Suiza 1919 France.

[GTAm]

If its Motorsports, although I don't have the exact stats off hand I can tell you its a tussle between the UK, Germany and Italy with probably Italy on top.

Pre-war Gran Prix - Mostly won by Alfa Romeo, Bugatti, Benz and Auto Union.

Post-war Gran Prix - Ferrari and McLaren

Touring cars - 60's belonged to Alfa Romeo (Giulia) with the Lotus Cortina, Porsche 911 and the Escort BDA chipping in a bit. 70's was a battle between Alfa (Giulia), BMW (3.0 CSL) and Ford Capri 3.0 V6. In the 80s it was the BMW E30 M3 that dominated with the Ford Sirerra Cosworth, Volvo 240 Turbo, Rover SD1 Vitesse, Alfetta GTV6 chipping in a bit. In the late 80s one year the Nissan Skyline wrapped up the championship.

In the 90's things were spread more with BMW, Vauxhall-Opel, Ford and Alfa Romeo taking the championships.

Sports car racing - 1960s - Alfa Romeo, Ferrari and Porsche were the dominant marques. The 1970 s was dominated by Porsche.

Le Mans - 50's were Ferrari, Jaguar 3 years, Aston 1 year, 60s were all Ferrari except for 3 years the Ford GT40 won, 70's were Porsche and Ferrari years, 1980s saw Jaguar win again, also Mercedes but Porsche was still the dominant marque. The 90s Nissan and Toyota threw big money but never won. But Mazda won in 1991!!!! The only Japanese win.

WRC - Its Lancia by far wo has been very dominant. The other successful manufacturers are Ford and Peugeot. This is the only area japanese manufacturers have really won something. Toyota, Subaru and Mitsubishi. However competitionw ere minimal in those years. In 1992 a Private team called the Jolly Club ran Lancia Deltas and beat the factory Toyota team!

So really how can Japan be the greatest motoring Nation?

[Supra_Natural]

Dude, if those graphics in the F1 races they show on the telly are correct, it F1 engines rev to 16-17k rpms. Besides, Honda engines do exist in F1. In two teams. Dunno if they have vtec. They certainly haven't won much

you're right..... But in the Big Mac's day, i think the rev limits were a bit lower...... but i just put that figure off the top of my head ...... and as far as i know, VTEC isn't allowed by the rules.....

"Havent Won Much"?? not in the recent past true, but let me direct your attention to the 1989 F1 Season, where Mclaren-Honda won EVERY race but one......

Edited February 6, 2007 by Supra_Natural

[Devinda_Z]

" Greatness comes to the biggest when they harness the Spirit of the many "

---was said in relation to TOYOTA......i'll pick up onthis later...

~no one misunderstand me - i voted Brit n stand by it BUT there seems to be an incling of greatness in terms of Japan as a automotive " NATION " - collectivly

none of this is in relation to "great cars " - which we kinda have been taking as é whole back bone of our logical reasoning - but if u take its from an industry standpoint focusing on a country as a whole - é Japs arent 'That' shabby...

[Pericles]

Just to add to what GTAm said, Japans glory days in rally appear over too. The 90s might have been dominated by Evos and Subarus, but the last few years its been all Citreon, Peugot and Ford. Mitsu is just about out of it and Subaru has faired rather poorly compared with the other factory teams. Granted, a lot to do with Loeb as well at the Citreon car, but that car just bloody never breaks down, which allows that team to maintain the pace.

[Pericles]

" Greatness comes to the biggest when they harness the Spirit of the many "

---was said in relation to TOYOTA......i'll pick up onthis later...

~no one misunderstand me - i voted Brit n stand by it BUT there seems to be an incling of greatness in terms of Japan as a automotive " NATION " - collectivly

none of this is in relation to "great cars " - which we kinda have been taking as é whole back bone of our logical reasoning - but if u take its from an industry standpoint focusing on a country as a whole - é Japs arent 'That' shabby...

Ah well, the japs will still struggle to sell a car over 100k man. What was the main problem with the NSX? No one wanted to spend 80k on a Honda. But when Ferrari wanted ppl to drop $500k on a Enzo, ppl queued up. Buggatti puts out a $1mill Veyron? Not a problem. Toyota might become the largest car manufacturer, but u think they can price something for $1mill? Even the LF-A will be sold under Lexus branding so it appears to be American.

[Asanka76]

i dunno abt "heart" in a 911 - all i know its got Big HEAVY bum!!

what about porsche carrera GT

[Asanka76]

Just to add to what GTAm said, Japans glory days in rally appear over too. The 90s might have been dominated by Evos and Subarus, but the last few years its been all Citreon, Peugot and Ford. Mitsu is just about out of it and Subaru has faired rather poorly compared with the other factory teams. Granted, a lot to do with Loeb as well at the Citreon car, but that car just bloody never breaks down, which allows that team to maintain the pace.

Totaly agree. West is fighting back. Anyway all I feel is Japs never made something we can call a master piece. They are good in bulding commecial cars in high volumes for very competitive prices. (Subaru stay out from the bunch though)

[Devinda_Z]

Ah well, the japs will still struggle to sell a car over 100k man. What was the main problem with the NSX? No one wanted to spend 80k on a Honda. But when Ferrari wanted ppl to drop $500k on a Enzo, ppl queued up. Buggatti puts out a $1mill Veyron? Not a problem. Toyota might become the largest car manufacturer, but u think they can price something for $1mill? Even the LF-A will be sold under Lexus branding so it appears to be American.

quite right - it has all gotta do with one thing -é thing é European&American cars have in spaded

HERITAGE

if i'm not mistaken the japs arent even close to thier centenary in ca manufacturing né?

[GTAm]

" Greatness comes to the biggest when they harness the Spirit of the many "

---was said in relation to TOYOTA......i'll pick up onthis later...

~no one misunderstand me - i voted Brit n stand by it BUT there seems to be an incling of greatness in terms of Japan as a automotive " NATION " - collectivly

none of this is in relation to "great cars " - which we kinda have been taking as é whole back bone of our logical reasoning - but if u take its from an industry standpoint focusing on a country as a whole - é Japs arent 'That' shabby...

You're right.

If you look at the car as a transportation appliance then Japan can be said to be great. Also from an industry point of view they are really great. They (Esp. Toyota) is the most efficient manufacturer by far. But that does not mean they make "great cars".

We (all of us here) look at cars as much more than a means of transport. And that's where Japan tends to fall apart.

They can't do cars with emotion. Cars that you can grow attached to. And they can't really "style" a car yet.

[Supra_Natural]

You're right.

If you look at the car as a transportation appliance then Japan can be said to be great. Also from an industry point of view they are really great. They (Esp. Toyota) is the most efficient manufacturer by far. But that does not mean they make "great cars".

We (all of us here) look at cars as much more than a means of transport. And that's where Japan tends to fall apart.

They can't do cars with emotion. Cars that you can grow attached to. And they can't really "style" a car yet.

Hmm, i dunno mate, seems to me there HAVE been a few exceptions....... Toyota 2000GT, Nissan 240Z? (yes yes, I know Goertz had a hand in them, but mostly japanese innit?) and if you want "character" just ask devinda....

personally tho, I can see myself growing attached to a certain 300ZX..... far more than the doofus who currently owns it anyway.....

[isurujosh]

Dude, if those graphics in the F1 races they show on the telly are correct, it F1 engines rev to 16-17k rpms. Besides, Honda engines do exist in F1. In two teams. Dunno if they have vtec. They certainly haven't won much

well honda had some serious success when they were teamed up with mclaren and williams in later80-s to early 90s... honda provided the F1 engine....

of course honda cannot repeat that past success now as they have lost their focus as an engineering company lately... honda is now looking at things froma business angel, which is why i am loosing my preference to honda. but i am huge fan of their accomplishments in the past.

F1 cars today break 19000rpm... /extra revs more power

[Devinda_Z]

You're right.

If you look at the car as a transportation appliance then Japan can be said to be great. Also from an industry point of view they are really great. They (Esp. Toyota) is the most efficient manufacturer by far. But that does not mean they make "great cars".

We (all of us here) look at cars as much more than a means of transport. And that's where Japan tends to fall apart.

They can't do cars with emotion. Cars that you can grow attached to. And they can't really "style" a car yet.

EXACTLLY

but like Supra Natural said there MAY have been a few exceptions...

IMHO if i ever get attached to a Jap car it'll be an AE86 Corolla GT-Apex or a LN 65- HILUX (no one can deny that those two have somethin remotely close to "chrachter" going for it)

&as for Supra_natural......i suspect he's sleeping with é "Fairlady" ...........serious obsession this one n é car!!