Drove 2 Work On Ebrakes Only

Ripper · November 20, 2007

Yep...today...just about an hour ago my brakes gave up one me right in middle of Fort with loads of traffic around... First i could paddle it and get some braking power but after a lil while that also went away

Man it was such a struggle to drive on ebrakes only and because you can't pullover in heavy traffic and security issues had to drive on at snail pace but even still ebrakes just suck... Can't blame it too much cos i did manage to get to office without getting into trouble

Now guys... i was wondering what has gone wrong... I do my weekly checks and somehow i have missed to check the all important brake fluid... And now i noticed that it has gone a little bit lower than the minimum level marker...

But what's puzzling is that why did i completely loose all breaking power because of that. I thought that the Min mark is still a "safe" limit and the manufacturers design it like that allow for idiots like myself who miss checking the fluid levels once in a while

Any ideas guys?

I've sent a office driver to get me new brake oil to fill er up and see what happens

at the moment when the car is stopped...the pedal won't budge at all....the moment i start it....it floor without any resistance... fricking scary

And the car is a Sprinter...

The Don · November 21, 2007

Arc Angel said:
are they more reliable?

They are more resistant to rupture, as they have steel braiding over the rubber. Usually used for off road use, and on cars used for racing and track day use.

maithri · November 21, 2007

Hi All,

Brake fluid is hygroscopic (absorbs moisture). As a result once open to air brake fluid starts deteriorating-hydraulic fluid cannot be compressed but the moisture absorbed is water vapour and will compress as well as boil at a much lower boiling point than brake fluid. This can cause dangerous brake failure if the brakes get very hot as in decending steep hills etc with a lot of brake use. The other factor is the corrosion and pitting caused by the moisture inside expensive brake cylinders. The best way to avoid is to replace once every two years with fresh brake fluid from a sealed container. I would not suggest doing it yourself as the pitfalls are many and safety implications immense. In my garage we use a vaccum suction system to suck out the old brake fluid through the bleed nipples as well as the reservior on top of the master cylinder. We then slowly fill the system with fresh fluid with all the bleed nipples open and then vaccum bleed each corner to purge all the air that is in the system. In all this process we avoid any contact with the brake pedal as pumping the brake pedal on an empty system can damage the seals(washers in SL) in the cylinders due to the lack of lubrication.

Once done there is no need bed them in as only the fluid is renewed and non of the friction components-the brakes should work as before at least if not better and certainly safer.

mazdaspeed · November 22, 2007

maithri said:
Hi All,
In my garage we use a vaccum suction system to suck out the old brake fluid through the bleed nipples as well as the reservior on top of the master cylinder. We then slowly fill the system with fresh fluid with

That’s great.

Any chance u can drop me a mail with the name and contact nos of your garage. Most garages (Due to lack of equipment) pump the peddle to release the break oil and then fill it up and re pump the peddle to make sure there is no air bubble’s.

Chammu7@yahoo.com

Speaking on the subject of brakes – can we use DOT 4 ?

I was told that has a higher boiling point. IF so can I change my DOT 3 and replace with DOT 4 ?

What precautions should I take and are there any down sides ?

Thx

harshansenadhir · November 22, 2007

Ripper said:
Guys
Spotted the leak

seems to be one mother of a leak since the moment i put new oil in i can droplets of it streaming down...

The leak is in my passenger side front wheel. Can't see exactly where it is but it's close to where the rubber brake hose connects to the wheel brake housing thing... I"m assuming either the tube connecting area has given up or some brake washers in the caliper parts... The wheels themselves seems to be clean of any oil thought the wheel arches show splash "damage"

My front brakes disks...hope the cylinders are not F'd...

Trying to get a mechanic guy to check it out and fix it in office itself if that's possible... Even with the oil top-up there's absolutely no resistance in the pedal...it just completely floors down... The brake lines must be completely drained out...

My office is in R.A. de mel Mw...so getting out of here without brakes to go anywhere is a huge challenge

aaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!!!!!!

check the brake hose of that side.. coz in my experience with vehicles I never had to replace brake caliper washers.. and to devise such a leak through calipers is nearly impossible. Piece of advise, replace both the hoses if thats the fault.

Edited November 22, 2007 by harshansenadhir

Pericles · November 22, 2007

mazdaspeed said:
That's great.
Any chance u can drop me a mail with the name and contact nos of your garage. Most garages (Due to lack of equipment) pump the peddle to release the break oil and then fill it up and re pump the peddle to make sure there is no air bubble's.

Chammu7@yahoo.com

Speaking on the subject of brakes – can we use DOT 4 ?

I was told that has a higher boiling point. IF so can I change my DOT 3 and replace with DOT 4 ?

What precautions should I take and are there any down sides ?

Thx

I do believe Maithri is based in UK.

mazdaspeed · November 22, 2007

Pericles said:
I do believe Maithri is based in UK.

shoot... there goes that option then.....

Any ideas on a local place ?

The Don · November 22, 2007

The agents I believe should have that equipment Mazdaspeed but do not know how much they will charge you,

Even I've had the problem Maithri speaks about which manifests in the form of spongy breaks (or loss of breaking power) and the only solution for that is to replace brake fluid, though my mechanics at the time felt it was unnecessary believe it or not !

If somebody has these vaccum type of equipment it would be very helpful if somebody has them.

A lot of Sri Lankan mechanics also advise against DOT 4, heard terms like "it boils the brake washes" etc. perhaps it absorbs more moisture, but my current mechanic suggests we will clean out the brake system and replace all the fluid with DOT 4 and it would solve all my braking woes so its an issue of attitude as well I guess

I mean twice now Air conditioning technicians have insisted fitting piston type compressors in to my cars (saying it provides better cooling), the first time I accepted the offer now knowing better, and it didn't result in more cooling, but heavy loss of power when AC was on ! It was a disaster. The second time on a different car, I told the technician to go to hell and after great effort sourced an original rotary type compressor to replace the existing failed compressor and worked like a charm. The same problem as brakes exist in the air conditioning system as our technicians never replace the filter which is full of silica gel etc to absorb the moisture in the gas or properly vacuum the system before gassing it, and with air and moisture gas loses its compression efficiency leading to inefficient cooling.

Arc Angel · November 22, 2007

The Don said:
The agents I believe should have that equipment Mazdaspeed but do not know how much they will charge you,
Even I've had the problem Maithri speaks about which manifests in the form of spongy breaks (or loss of breaking power) and the only solution for that is to replace brake fluid, though my mechanics at the time felt it was unnecessary believe it or not !

If somebody has these vaccum type of equipment it would be very helpful if somebody has them.

A lot of Sri Lankan mechanics also advise against DOT 4, heard terms like "it boils the brake washes" etc. perhaps it absorbs more moisture, but my current mechanic suggests we will clean out the brake system and replace all the fluid with DOT 4 and it would solve all my braking woes so its an issue of attitude as well I guess

I mean twice now Air conditioning technicians have insisted fitting piston type compressors in to my cars (saying it provides better cooling), the first time I accepted the offer now knowing better, and it didn't result in more cooling, but heavy loss of power when AC was on ! It was a disaster. The second time on a different car, I told the technician to go to hell and after great effort sourced an original rotary type compressor to replace the existing failed compressor and worked like a charm. The same problem as brakes exist in the air conditioning system as our technicians never replace the filter which is full of silica gel etc to absorb the moisture in the gas or properly vacuum the system before gassing it, and with air and moisture gas loses its compression efficiency leading to inefficient cooling.

just to ask a blonde question, can't we drain the brake fluid through the nipples using that pump/vaccum they use to suck out ATF?

I never seen the ATF being changed (cos I never owned an auto) so I don't know how the pump actually works.

The Don · November 22, 2007

Arc Angel said:
just to ask a blonde question, can't we drain the brake fluid through the nipples using that pump/vaccum they use to suck out ATF?
I never seen the ATF being changed (cos I never owned an auto) so I don't know how the pump actually works.

The machinery are probably similar (I have never seen the brake fluid exchanger machines either, but I have seen ATF ones), and I think you should be able to adapt one to exchange brake fluid.

Problem is you cannot have a machine which does both, because you can't have brake fluid mixing with ATF fluid so it would have to be one or the other.

But considering the engineering skills of people we have, who have rigged up compressors and vacuum pumps using compressors used for refrigerators, I am sure one can be rigged up if somebody can be given enough incentive. Problem is I do not think a lot of people understand the value of doing it that way !, cos it still works if you do it the other way, but not as well.

maithri · November 22, 2007

Hi all,

Yes I am afraid I live in the UK and the garage is mine-I am a mechanic and I have my own garage, that said the equipment required can be made by someone with a bit of ability. There are two types of brake bleeders-vaccum one like the one I prefer or the pressure type. The pressure one is simpler to make yourself- get a spare cap that fits securely and airtight to your brake reservior, drill a hole and fit an old brake hose or any other hose capable of holding a pressure of around 30psi. Get a strong plastic bottle and fix the hose to one end of it-all joints must be fluid tight and secure. Attach an air hose to the other end securely. Now fix the cap to the brake fluid reservior fill your plastic bottle with fresh brake fluid and attach the air hose at the opposite end of the air hose to a the tyre valve of a spare tyre using a tyre connector. The pressure in the tyre will force the fluid to the brake master and simply go around the car and open the bleed screws one by one till around half a liter of fluid has come out from the four bleed nipples. Make sure the fresh supply of fluid never run too low during this process.

I bought and used a similar device back in the 80's when I used to visit my customers and did not have a ready supply of compressed air.

Dot 4 brake fluid has a higher boiling point and is superior to dot 3. I am surprised that some feel it damages seals in cylinders-I have never experienced this and as far as I know they are completely compatible.

maithri · November 22, 2007

Hi all,

Yes I am afraid I live in the UK and the garage is mine-I am a mechanic and I have my own garage, that said the equipment required can be made by someone with a bit of ability. There are two types of brake bleeders-vaccum one like the one I prefer or the pressure type. The pressure one is simpler to make yourself- get a spare cap that fits securely and airtight to your brake reservior, drill a hole and fit an old brake hose or any other hose capable of holding a pressure of around 30psi. Get a strong plastic bottle and fix the hose to one end of it-all joints must be fluid tight and secure. Attach an air hose to the other end securely. Now fix the cap to the brake fluid reservior fill your plastic bottle with fresh brake fluid and attach the air hose at the opposite end of the air hose to a the tyre valve of a spare tyre using a tyre connector. The pressure in the tyre will force the fluid to the brake master and simply go around the car and open the bleed screws one by one till around half a liter of fluid has come out from the four bleed nipples. Make sure the fresh supply of fluid never run too low during this process.

I bought and used a similar device back in the 80's when I used to visit my customers and did not have a ready supply of compressed air.

Dot 4 brake fluid has a higher boiling point and is superior to dot 3. I am surprised that some feel it damages seals in cylinders-I have never experienced this and as far as I know they are completely compatible.

Saturn · November 22, 2007

Ripper said:
Yep...today...just about an hour ago my brakes gave up one me right in middle of Fort with loads of traffic around... First i could paddle it and get some braking power but after a lil while that also went away
Man it was such a struggle to drive on ebrakes only and because you can't pullover in heavy traffic and security issues had to drive on at snail pace but even still ebrakes just suck... Can't blame it too much cos i did manage to get to office without getting into trouble

Now guys... i was wondering what has gone wrong... I do my weekly checks and somehow i have missed to check the all important brake fluid... And now i noticed that it has gone a little bit lower than the minimum level marker...

But what's puzzling is that why did i completely loose all breaking power because of that. I thought that the Min mark is still a "safe" limit and the manufacturers design it like that allow for idiots like myself who miss checking the fluid levels once in a while

Any ideas guys?

I've sent a office driver to get me new brake oil to fill er up and see what happens

at the moment when the car is stopped...the pedal won't budge at all....the moment i start it....it floor without any resistance... fricking scary

And the car is a Sprinter...

Woudn't it have been safer to just pull over and call a breakdown vehicle? Driving without brakes makes you a hazard - you could have caused an accident, or been unable to avoid one - at very worst, you would have presented an obstacle to other motorists?

No offense to you Ripper, but I guess this proves my point about people here willing to drive as long as the car is moving I'm just shocked, but in retrospect I realize that this is the way it's done here.

Edited November 22, 2007 by Saturn

mazdaspeed · November 23, 2007

The Don said:

The agents I believe should have that equipment Mazdaspeed but do not know how much they will charge you,

A lot of Sri Lankan mechanics also advise against DOT 4, heard terms like "it boils the brake washes" etc. perhaps it absorbs more moisture, but my current mechanic suggests we will clean out the brake system uote]

Thanks Don for sharing the advice and experience….

I can assure U that I too have got exactly the same Bit of information passed to me by my mechanic & the AC man.

I had to replace my AC Compressor as there was a razor sound coming – Basically it was just dam irritating to drive as the sound was quite loud.

The Piston compressor story came up They never talked about the loss in power. Like you I too would have had to experience it – but to my luck my guy in Papilyana had got down an engine (mas Karanna) and I too the compressor off that- cost me 6000/- and to see the brackets did not fit- so I got he brackets too and all works like a charm with a good cooling – Replaced the filter too as it had the original 1 and that’s now 7 years old .

I was told if I remove all the oil and replace with DOT 4 it would be Ok but I’m going to look for a place where I can get it vacuumed out – as that sounds better and would the avoid any washer issues (Hopefully) -Shall keep thing s posted

mazdaspeed · November 23, 2007

maithri said:
Hi all,
Dot 4 brake fluid has a higher boiling point and is superior to dot 3. I am surprised that some feel it damages seals in cylinders-I have never experienced this and as far as I know they are completely compatible.

Hi Maithri

Thanks for the advise. Yes I was somewhat surprised too when they said there would be issues with the washers/seals etc. Since you have experience in this I 'm sure it’s safe to put DOT 4 provided that all the DOT 3 is removed and completely empty.

Thanks a lot

Ripper · November 23, 2007

Saturn said:
Woudn't it have been safer to just pull over and call a breakdown vehicle? Driving without brakes makes you a hazard - you could have caused an accident, or been unable to avoid one - at very worst, you would have presented an obstacle to other motorists?
No offense to you Ripper, but I guess this proves my point about people here willing to drive as long as the car is moving I'm just shocked, but in retrospect I realize that this is the way it's done here.

you have a point and no disagreements there mate...in fact if you read my first post, my initial thought was to pull over... The conditions at the time sorta didn't allow me to do it and yes i did risk it and drove on relying on my limited driving skills and a lousy hand brake.

But can promise you that i wasn't an "obstacle" as you have said

I've seen worse morons everyday in Colombo...

Though i'm not defending my actions...and i don't think i have to anyways You have to be in the same situ you really make a call IMHO

But do 100% agree with you view purely from a logical point of view

cheers

ripper

Saturn · November 23, 2007

Ripper said:
you have a point and no disagreements there mate...in fact if you read my first post, my initial thought was to pull over... The conditions at the time sorta didn't allow me to do it and yes i did risk it and drove on relying on my limited driving skills and a lousy hand brake.
But can promise you that i wasn't an "obstacle" as you have said

I've seen worse morons everyday in Colombo...

Though i'm not defending my actions...and i don't think i have to anyways You have to be in the same situ you really make a call IMHO

But do 100% agree with you view purely from a logical point of view

cheers

ripper

unfortunantly we don't have abreakdown lane or anything as such in this country, and the sidewalks are full of pedestrians

well good to hear that things worked out and all was well!! sorry I sounded rather impolite

Edited November 23, 2007 by Saturn

maithri · November 23, 2007

Hi all,

On the issue of brake fluid one of my mechanics likes old cars-classics-he currently owns a 1970 Morris Oxford as well as Wolsely 16/60 and he uses dot 5 fluid after a complete overhaul of the system. He says as these cars are not driven often dot absorbs less moisture and so has less chance of corrosion to the rare brake components! These cars were before dot numbering was probably started and they work well on this very high quality brake fluid. So I would be surprised at any damage to the rubber seals as a result of a higher quality fluid. A poor quality or worn and contaminated seals are probably a bigger culprit.

Maithri

Ripper · November 26, 2007

Saturn

Cool scene bro I get your point and do agree with you 100%..Just that the traffic and the area it happened was not the best to pullover etc

My brakes first start to give up on me near the Port and lost it completely close to HSBC HQ... Don't think motorists even notice since there was heavy traffic...

Anyways...got my mechanic to check the whole system so at least it won't happen anytime sooner...

And i also learnt how to plug a hose leak if it were to spring up again...Packing a can of brake fluid, ball bearings etc now

Maithri

You think we can use DOT4 or DOT5 when the recommendation is for DOT3?

I have an offroad/dual sport bike that i use DOT4 on since the manual says to use that... 3+ years no leaks so far though i change all fluids/Grease once a year.

actually once i had a fall and busted a steel brake pipe and that's the only oil leak i've ever had on the bike... Maybe it's DOT4 then?

maithri · November 26, 2007

Ripper,

Most recomendations are just that-a recomended minimum standard mostly-when it comes to brake fluid here in the UK we seem to have nothing but Dot 4 offered these days. How ever most mid to early 90's cars will have Dot 3 as the recomended fluid as this was the best and mostly widely available then. The higher spec fluids are almost always compatible with the lower spec ones unless they say so on the tin. The exception are the silicone Dot 5 and 5.1 fluids that seems to require the old fluid to be completely drained before filling the system. There is the rare exception of using the green coloured fluid (Citroen LHM). Never mix these two as they were never compatible and all the rubber seals and hoses were different too! So there is a minefield but I would think in SL normal Dot 4 Fluid changed around once every 2 years would be more than sufficient. If Dot 3 is the widely available fluid the same applies, change it every 2 years or even 18 months if possible in the case of Dot 3. It's the time that matters more not the distance travelled, as absorption of moisture happens weather you use the car or not.

Maithri

Ripper · November 27, 2007

maithri said:
Ripper,
Most recomendations are just that-a recomended minimum standard mostly-when it comes to brake fluid here in the UK we seem to have nothing but Dot 4 offered these days. How ever most mid to early 90's cars will have Dot 3 as the recomended fluid as this was the best and mostly widely available then. The higher spec fluids are almost always compatible with the lower spec ones unless they say so on the tin. The exception are the silicone Dot 5 and 5.1 fluids that seems to require the old fluid to be completely drained before filling the system. There is the rare exception of using the green coloured fluid (Citroen LHM). Never mix these two as they were never compatible and all the rubber seals and hoses were different too! So there is a minefield but I would think in SL normal Dot 4 Fluid changed around once every 2 years would be more than sufficient. If Dot 3 is the widely available fluid the same applies, change it every 2 years or even 18 months if possible in the case of Dot 3. It's the time that matters more not the distance travelled, as absorption of moisture happens weather you use the car or not.

Maithri

thanks Maithri. Great Info... DOT4 it is then

thanks again