Double Clutching, Heel-toe & Granny Shift

[Iroshana]

haha.. machang if thats the criteria for being a racer, everyone on the forum automatically gets upgraded to 'racer' status..

Hey did anybody say that I'm a racer?

[Iroshana]

I was also recently given a very brief lesson on "Throttle steer" by an expert. And I experienced it extremely well in a Rwd car. I now see how much quicker one can be around a track by following this principle. However one point I wish to clarify is how successfully can you do it with a Fwd car? I felt my (fwd) Alfa at Katu was very responsive towards this.

It seems its new for me. Could u kindly tell me more details?

[Watchman]

actually no. when you left-foot brake you usually don't do it till you come to a full stop (unless it's a WRC type of car, where you pretty much only use the clutch pedal to get out of first or so...). so you pick the optimal gear and apply the brake. while dabbing the gas as and when required. (thats how i tried it anyway.. )

ahhh i c i c i c ....... heheheee... thanks!!!

[Arc Angel]

Hey did anybody say that I'm a racer?

er, yeah dude, you did....

"Hey its very nice to find an another racer here "

[Arc Angel]

Hey did anybody say that I'm a racer?

er, yeah dude, you did....

"Hey its very nice to find an another racer here "

[Iroshana]

er, yeah dude, you did....

He hee... its not. I said "another" means second racer i found here. First one is not me. He is also an another guy.

[Arc Angel]

He hee... its not. I said "another" means second racer i found here. First one is not me. He is also an another guy.

i see... no worries.

[Iroshana]

i see... no worries.

Anyway do u interested in heel-toe or rev matching? Did u read the answer I gave u for your first question under this topic?

[Arc Angel]

Anyway do u interested in heel-toe or rev matching? Did u read the answer I gave u for your first question under this topic?

I've been practicing for awhile now... still not 100% with it, but hopefully soon.....

[Iroshana]

I've been practicing for awhile now... still not 100% with it, but hopefully soon.....

Good luck

[virensti]

Hello all,

I'm feeling abit flustered bringing up quite an old topic here, hope you guys wont mind

well I know some people use heel & toe for daily driving even in traffic at times.. (i try to anyway ) but what I want to clarify is, for example,

your coming up to a red light doing about 80 km/h on 5th. you heel toe (rev match) while braking from 5th-4th-3rd-2nd and then clutch. (RPM's in my car dont go high than 2600 while I do this) Thats how it's done yeah?

Now what I wanna know is, WILL this significantly save my brakes? or will it be the same as just braking without any downshifting, and it obviously drinks up abit more petrol. But is the main purpose of this is to save the brakes by using engine braking and to save your clutch and avoid extra vaccum build up in the engine? I know at high speed/high RPM yes it does make a difference.. but at low RPM's ???

Once again I apologise for bringing up a topic thats over a year old. Sorry guys.

p.s I know our racers with performance cars do this in their STi's EVO's etc. But how many normal family car drivers do it? Lemmie know please. Thanks everyone. V.

[harshansenadhir]

interesting comparison virensti, me too used to do heel toe down shifting, clutch balancing etc etc. but, when you consider the wear and tear of clutch mechanism and the engine due to rev ups is more than what you incur in wear 'n tear of brake pads/liners/disks etc. However if you're on a slippery condition and you wanna slow down without risking of skidding, yes then safety comes top of the clutch and engine wear so do engine braking...

[virensti]

interesting comparison virensti, me too used to do heel toe down shifting, clutch balancing etc etc. but, when you consider the wear and tear of clutch mechanism and the engine due to rev ups is more than what you incur in wear 'n tear of brake pads/liners/disks etc. However if you're on a slippery condition and you wanna slow down without risking of skidding, yes then safety comes top of the clutch and engine wear so do engine braking...

hmm but see machan, when you match the rev's properly, there (theoretically) cant be any kind of strain or wear on the clutch right?.. and yeah I agree in wet whether heel toe downshifting is the best thing to do, specially for vehicles that dont have abs. But if you dont heel toe/rev match you can cause your vehicle to get into a skid from severe engine braking. (thats what i've heard and read) and it does make sense. I just wanna know if it will save my brakes in the long run (at very low rpm's/speeds). But thanks for the reply Harshansenadhir.

[harshansenadhir]

hmm but see machan, when you match the rev's properly, there (theoretically) cant be any kind of strain or wear on the clutch right?.. and yeah I agree in wet whether heel toe downshifting is the best thing to do, specially for vehicles that dont have abs. But if you dont heel toe/rev match you can cause your vehicle to get into a skid from severe engine braking. (thats what i've heard and read) and it does make sense. I just wanna know if it will save my brakes in the long run (at very low rpm's/speeds). But thanks for the reply Harshansenadhir.

well even if you match rpm there still will be slight clutch wear including wear 'n tear of clutch mechanism. And yes you'll save on brakes

[STi B4]

Anybody here used to do double clutching, heel-toe or granny shifting?

Most of times I used to rev up the engine for rpm matching when down shifting. The same thing happening in heel-toe. But not really using double clutching except when skipping one or two levels at down shift. Some people says double clutching will help to increase lifetime of syncros in the gearbox but some dont agree with it.

Everybody invited for comments, including racers & auto experts.

Double-clutch AFAIK is not required in the newer cars due to the synchros. They were required in the older cars.

Regarding the Heel-toe (for rev-matching), yes it is required if you wish to remain in an optimum power band to use engine-braking or power out of a corner\overtake. Principle is that you use toe on the brake and heel on the throttle or vice-versa. Some of us prefer to use toe on the brake and the side of the foot for throttle. Really depends on the position of your pedals and the size of your foot. The idea is, when down-shifting you are shifting into a lower gear which is essentially at a higher rpm. However at that particular moment your current gear rpm is lower. So when down shifting you match the revs of the engine to the revs of the lower gear and clutch out. The process makes the car a lot more stable and prevents that annoying jerk.

Darin should be able to correct any mistakes I've made......

Hope this helps.

[SeanD]

Double-clutch AFAIK is not required in the newer cars due to the synchros. They were required in the older cars.

Regarding the Heel-toe (for rev-matching), yes it is required if you wish to remain in an optimum power band to use engine-braking or power out of a corner\overtake. Principle is that you use toe on the brake and heel on the throttle or vice-versa. Some of us prefer to use toe on the brake and the side of the foot for throttle. Really depends on the position of your pedals and the size of your foot. The idea is, when down-shifting you are shifting into a lower gear which is essentially at a higher rpm. However at that particular moment your current gear rpm is lower. So when down shifting you match the revs of the engine to the revs of the lower gear and clutch out. The process makes the car a lot more stable and prevents that annoying jerk.

Darin should be able to correct any mistakes I've made......

Hope this helps.

Thanks porkster, that's very helpful.

[darinwrxsti]

Double-clutch AFAIK is not required in the newer cars due to the synchros. They were required in the older cars.

Regarding the Heel-toe (for rev-matching), yes it is required if you wish to remain in an optimum power band to use engine-braking or power out of a corner\overtake. Principle is that you use toe on the brake and heel on the throttle or vice-versa. Some of us prefer to use toe on the brake and the side of the foot for throttle. Really depends on the position of your pedals and the size of your foot. The idea is, when down-shifting you are shifting into a lower gear which is essentially at a higher rpm. However at that particular moment your current gear rpm is lower. So when down shifting you match the revs of the engine to the revs of the lower gear and clutch out. The process makes the car a lot more stable and prevents that annoying jerk.

Darin should be able to correct any mistakes I've made......

Hope this helps.

Machang nothing to correct thats a text book answer, nice one bro.

[GihanFX]

Thanks porkster, that's very helpful.

porkster ?

[STi B4]

porkster ?

[virensti]

Double-clutch AFAIK is not required in the newer cars due to the synchros. They were required in the older cars.

Regarding the Heel-toe (for rev-matching), yes it is required if you wish to remain in an optimum power band to use engine-braking or power out of a corner\overtake. Principle is that you use toe on the brake and heel on the throttle or vice-versa. Some of us prefer to use toe on the brake and the side of the foot for throttle. Really depends on the position of your pedals and the size of your foot. The idea is, when down-shifting you are shifting into a lower gear which is essentially at a higher rpm. However at that particular moment your current gear rpm is lower. So when down shifting you match the revs of the engine to the revs of the lower gear and clutch out. The process makes the car a lot more stable and prevents that annoying jerk.

Darin should be able to correct any mistakes I've made......

Hope this helps.

Thanks machan for the info, so far my struggle is to properly match the revs, whether at high or low rpm's, some times its too much revving so the car tends to jerk abit forward and sometimes its not enough so the car (Again) has another jerk.. but when I do get it properly it feels good and not to mention that my pedals are miles apart! but i'm gonna buy this pedal set from motorcade where you can adjust the accelerator pedal so that there's an extra piece closer to the brake pedal. Thanks again for the info. V

[STi B4]

Thanks machan for the info, so far my struggle is to properly match the revs, whether at high or low rpm's, some times its too much revving so the car tends to jerk abit forward and sometimes its not enough so the car (Again) has another jerk.. but when I do get it properly it feels good and not to mention that my pedals are miles apart! but i'm gonna buy this pedal set from motorcade where you can adjust the accelerator pedal so that there's an extra piece closer to the brake pedal. Thanks again for the info. V

No worries buddy......it takes a bit of practice to feel the revs and match it but you'll get there. I'm also still a long way off from perfecting it.

[MeanGreenZ28]

Def. makes driving a bit more fun when you're doing all this heel-toe stuff ... I really got into it recently after I built up my ride for the street with a M6 trans., it's been a pretty nice learning curve since ... late braking, heel-toe, take the proper line through the turn and then just mashing the throttle ... FUN! ... all this is done on the way to work and back on the days I take the TransAm; and evenings and nights when I take her out

Edited July 24, 2009 by MeanGreenZ28

[Iroshana]

My first topic still active after more than one year

[virensti]

My first topic still active after more than one year

lol.. adey this was your first topic? machan 5 stars for a first topic!

[virensti]

No worries buddy......it takes a bit of practice to feel the revs and match it but you'll get there. I'm also still a long way off from perfecting it.

Yeah i know. machan do you look at the rpm meter to rev match? or do you just blip the throttle and hope its right? or do you just go by the feel of the engine and clutch? and do you rev up as soon as you clutch to down shift? or do you rev match after you've entered the gear and are about to give the clutch? I'm asking cause when I wanna down shift really fast, its bloody hard to get it all together.