Hybrid Vehicles

[Komisiripala]

wow, i guess i really am the guinea pig here! alright boys, (and girls if there are any) i'll keep you posted on whether our honda keeps purring like a kitten, or whether the batteries melt outta its a$$! honestly, we bought this car because we thought it was the next step forward in motoring. for the simple pleasure of owning something different, on the (or close to) the cutting edge of automotive tech, as available in SL. it had nothing to do with the cheap price tag, as someone mentioned. i too remember similar arguments arising when EFI was introduced, CVT's became commonplace etc etc. and i have faith in the ingenious baases around to come up with some ju-ju magic for hybrid technology as well. Lankaave porawal ne... thawa tika kaalekin hybrid tuk-tuks duwai...

the honda warranty is based on no. of years, or at least that's what our documents say. i know that's against the rule here, and i find it odd too. of course it means nothing in SL as the agents don't bring this model down yet, but i refer to it only as a yardstick for the batteries expected lifespan.

the electric torque curve take a little getting used to and is just brilliant, frankly! boot space is quite restricted because of the power pack tho.

[isurujosh]

wow, i guess i really am the guinea pig here! alright boys, (and girls if there are any) i'll keep you posted on whether our honda keeps purring like a kitten, or whether the batteries melt outta its a$$! honestly, we bought this car because we thought it was the next step forward in motoring. for the simple pleasure of owning something different, on the (or close to) the cutting edge of automotive tech, as available in SL. it had nothing to do with the cheap price tag, as someone mentioned. i too remember similar arguments arising when EFI was introduced, CVT's became commonplace etc etc. and i have faith in the ingenious baases around to come up with some ju-ju magic for hybrid technology as well. Lankaave porawal ne... thawa tika kaalekin hybrid tuk-tuks duwai...

the honda warranty is based on no. of years, or at least that's what our documents say. i know that's against the rule here, and i find it odd too. of course it means nothing in SL as the agents don't bring this model down yet, but i refer to it only as a yardstick for the batteries expected lifespan.

the electric torque curve take a little getting used to and is just brilliant, frankly! boot space is quite restricted because of the power pack tho.

wotz the car that you got? (make/model/yom) how much did it cost? was the tax concession announced in budget in effect when you brought it down?

[Californikan]

Gen II (2004-2009) and Gen III (2010+) Prius

[harshansenadhir]

I still believe zero emission eco-friendly simply are marketing gimmicks and if you really consider the amount of fossil fuel burnt and the amount of batteries left in the world (lead and other substances) still the environmental friendliness of battery driven and hybrid cars will be very close to a pure gasoline driven car.

If you consider a completely battery driven car, the batteries need to be charged from the power grid and the power grid is powered by either nuclear or by burning fossil fuel. The net effect on the environment will be the same plus additional chemical substances of used batteries.

If it's a hybrid synergy drive, then there's saving of some amount of fossil fuel but the environmental damage of creating that mammoth battery pack and one day the battery pack becomes unusable it tends to add harmful chemical substances. Instead of these, why on earth R&D cannot put more effort on solar cells and hydrogen fuel cells. Burning bio-diesel on oil burners will be more eco friendly than the hybrids for argument sake.

on a different note, why hybrids doesn't come with an engine and a traction motor without a battery pack? having a battery pack result in two energy conversion processes say, from engine to battery and from battery to traction motor, which will result in more energy losses (each energy conversion has a loss based on the efficiency of the conversion process). If it was only an engine and a traction motor there's only one energy conversion process.

[jdnet]

Harshan, I'm not saying that your wrong about the environmental effects of the batteries bieng thrown out since we are talking about Sri Lanka, but, in countries such as the U.S. both regular lead-acid batteries and NIMH batteries found in hybid cars are recycled 98-99%. Not this is clearly not the case in Sri Lanka because we probably do not have the technology to do it but thought you may find it interesting to know what happens to batteries in the rest of the world.

[harshansenadhir]

Harshan, I'm not saying that your wrong about the environmental effects of the batteries bieng thrown out since we are talking about Sri Lanka, but, in countries such as the U.S. both regular lead-acid batteries and NIMH batteries found in hybid cars are recycled 98-99%. Not this is clearly not the case in Sri Lanka because we probably do not have the technology to do it but thought you may find it interesting to know what happens to batteries in the rest of the world.

yeah, agreed. Intention was to show the other side of the coin and it's not as eco friendly as it boasts to be.

Simplest example I can quote is hydro power. They said it's zero pollution and eco friendly, but see, now the entire eco system had turned upside down and most of the tanks are filled with mud and sand.

[jdnet]

yeah, agreed. Intention was to show the other side of the coin and it's not as eco friendly as it boasts to be.

Simplest example I can quote is hydro power. They said it's zero pollution and eco friendly, but see, now the entire eco system had turned upside down and most of the tanks are filled with mud and sand.

Not arguing with that, the majority of power plants in the U.S. are coal. So while these fair trade coffee sipping, vegan eco-tards are out there thinking they are changing the world by driving electric and hybrid cars, they are really not doing much to save the environment. Now should everything be powered by solar energy that would not be the case. BTW I wonder if they know how the precious metals used in hybrid batteries and other components of the cars are obtained. Chances are, some forest out there is being cut down and the land strip mines to get the metals needed to make the components.

SAving the world and slowing down the effects of global warming isn't as simple as driving a hybrid or electric car.

[heavyD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5zHBqq5H-g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKTOyiKLARk&feature=related

Oh snap!

[Sifaan]

on a different note, why hybrids doesn't come with an engine and a traction motor without a battery pack? having a battery pack result in two energy conversion processes say, from engine to battery and from battery to traction motor, which will result in more energy losses (each energy conversion has a loss based on the efficiency of the conversion process). If it was only an engine and a traction motor there's only one energy conversion process.

I'm not sure if I fully understood the point you were trying to make...

in a hybrid there are actually 5 conversions (engine: gasoline to motion; alternator:motion to electricity; battery in: electricity to chemical; battery out: chemical to electricity; motor: electricty to motion).

if there was an engine and a traction motor without battery pack, you do reduce the 2 conversions in the battery - but then the benefits (certain torque advantages, like in diesel electric locomotives) would hardly be worth the cost of including a traction motor. and you would lose all the benefits of stored energy (so engine would have to rev up/down just like a regular vehicle does, rather than (as much as possible) stay at constant, most fuel efficient, rpm and let the battery supply the rest of the power needs). actually AFAIK the energy loss in charging/discharging the battery is not so much; but having to carry the weight of the battery around does have an impact.

[harshansenadhir]

I'm not sure if I fully understood the point you were trying to make...

in a hybrid there are actually 5 conversions (engine: gasoline to motion; alternator:motion to electricity; battery in: electricity to chemical; battery out: chemical to electricity; motor: electricty to motion).

if there was an engine and a traction motor without battery pack, you do reduce the 2 conversions in the battery - but then the benefits (certain torque advantages, like in diesel electric locomotives) would hardly be worth the cost of including a traction motor. and you would lose all the benefits of stored energy (so engine would have to rev up/down just like a regular vehicle does, rather than (as much as possible) stay at constant, most fuel efficient, rpm and let the battery supply the rest of the power needs). actually AFAIK the energy loss in charging/discharging the battery is not so much; but having to carry the weight of the battery around does have an impact.

you were spot on about the storing of energy, that could be the main reason and does it means the engine of prius doesn't rev up and down ? what I'm trying to understand is the energy generated by the engine is stored in the battery and then transferred to motion(motor) as oppose to mechanical transfer in conventional cars, so saving should be at energy conversion or re-using the energy already generated (charging while braking, in a way similar to the dynamic brakes in locomotive) or no one counts the initial charging of the battery pack?

[Sifaan]

Oh snap!

You do know that test was biased to show the prius at it's worst, right?

on fuel economy tests hybrids tends to score better in city driving than on highway, where there's no real benefit of the electric drive and the battery pack + motor just become dead weight.

@jdnet; it's true that electric cars move the pollution away from the back end of a car to a power plant somewhere, but power plants tend to be less polluting (in terms of emissions per joule) than a car burning fossil fuels. also it makes it possible to keep city air cleaner. so there is an advantage. but if we really wanted to clean the world we should ride horses or push-cycles

on a different note, I remember reading somewhere that the pollution caused by manufacturing a car (e.g. making steel and so on) is actually more than the emissions the car will produce in it's lifetime.

[jdnet]

on a different note, I remember reading somewhere that the pollution caused by manufacturing a car (e.g. making steel and so on) is actually more than the emissions the car will produce in it's lifetime.

I wouldn't doubt it. It takes quite a lot of energy to create make the steel. When you take into account the emissions created to make each component of a car, it really adds up.

[Sifaan]

you were spot on about the storing of energy, that could be the main reason and does it means the engine of prius doesn't rev up and down ? what I'm trying to understand is the energy generated by the engine is stored in the battery and then transferred to motion(motor) as oppose to mechanical transfer in conventional cars, so saving should be at energy conversion or re-using the energy already generated (charging while braking, in a way similar to the dynamic brakes in locomotive) or no one counts the initial charging of the battery pack?

AFAIK the basic idea in a hybrid is that there are 2 major sources of losses:

1. engine losses - engine not running at it's most fuel-efficient speed and engine rpms changing (accelerating burns up loads of fuel - check any car that has an "instantaneous" fuel consumption display)

2. braking losses - all the motion in the car gets converted to heat at the brakes

This is addressed by:

1. Keep engine running at optimum rpm. Use excess output (e.g. if the car is moving slowly) to charge the batteries. If the batteries are full then shut the engine and run on the batteries. If more drive is needed, supplement the engine with the electric motor. if still more is needed (or the batteries are getting low), rev up the engine

2. regenerative braking. covert the energy loss in braking to charge the batteries.

of course there are more complications, such as different torque characteristics of traction motors and gasoline engines (so it might even be worth to run the car on traction motors until it gets upto a particular speed), complications in the simultaneous engagement of engine and motor, etc. so it's not going to be as black and white as above.

In the video posted by Big_D, the prius was being driven as fast as possible, so the engine was running at it's highest speed and the battery/motor was just dead weight (they probably had it with zero initial charge as well).

btw may be of interest to you that PSA is working on a different hybrid system ("through the road") where engine drives front wheels and motor drives rear wheels, which is supposedly a much simpler implementation than what toyota uses. and you can selectively enable all-wheel drive. but there are drawbacks like needing a starter motor to start the engine (on toyotas, the traction motor can start the engine) and some other inefficiencies.

[heavyD]

You do know that test was biased to show the prius at it's worst, right?

on fuel economy tests hybrids tends to score better in city driving than on highway, where there's no real benefit of the electric drive and the battery pack + motor just become dead weight.

Sigh, you just had to burst my bubble there eh?

Yah... they drove that Prius as fast as possible, not really it's shining feature...

[jdnet]

Now here's something that i'm pondering right now. I know this is off topic but I will create a thread later tonight after doing some research.

So lets say you are drivinh a 2000 honda civic. It cost a x amount of co2 emmissions to create it and emitted a y amount of emmissions through out the 10 years you spent driving it. Now you want to upgrade to a hybrid civic which cost a z amount of emissions to create. Would you be better off driving at civic for another 5 years to reduce the the amount of co2 you have emitted?

I think what we need to find out is the total CO2 emissions (from obtaining the raw materials to driving it for a set amount of time)of the civic and hybrid civic. Hmmm im going to have to look into that.

[Sifaan]

So lets say you are drivinh a 2000 honda civic. It cost a x amount of co2 emmissions to create it and emitted a y amount of emmissions through out the 10 years you spent driving it. Now you want to upgrade to a hybrid civic which cost a z amount of emissions to create. Would you be better off driving at civic for another 5 years to reduce the the amount of co2 you have emitted?

maybe... but it would take one hell of a tree-hugger to go around saying "I'm sticking to my 10-year civic rather than upgrading to a hybrid because it puts z emissions in the atmosphere to build it and that doesn't justify the reduced emissions of running the new hybrid", and such tree-huggers probably have push cycles made out of recycled steel

[Pericles]

maybe... but it would take one hell of a tree-hugger to go around saying "I'm sticking to my 10-year civic rather than upgrading to a hybrid because it puts z emissions in the atmosphere to build it and that doesn't justify the reduced emissions of running the new hybrid", and such tree-huggers probably have push cycles made out of recycled steel

They might, it just needs this -

But this would probably damage the environment even more!

[jdnet]

But this would probably damage the environment even more!

Hahahha. Increased methane emissions thus helping bring about global warming.

[Sifaan]

But this would probably damage the environment even more!

but it is a renewable source of natural gas... now if we could only find a way to liquify it

and burning methane is cleaner than conventional fossil fuels - no nasty NOx and SOx

[jdnet]

but it is a renewable source of natural gas... now if we could only find a way to liquify it

and burning methane is cleaner than conventional fossil fuels - no nasty NOx and SOx

Actually to be a little factual a leading cause of global warming is methane emissions. There are two ways methane gets emitted.

1. Through daily things like agriculture and even sewage

2. The melting of permafrost which has trapped methane for thousands of years.

So while methane is a clean fuel we have a problem by the fact that the world has way too much methane (even though it's nost feasible to obgtainn methane from most sources).

Damn what have i been smoking....

[harshansenadhir]

But this would probably damage the environment even more!

damn I almost fell off from chair laughing.. this can be one of those naturally aspirated fart machines..

Oh hell, this reminds me of blowing one's own trumpet!

Edited December 9, 2010 by harshansenadhir

[jdnet]

oh and I forgot to mention this; Methane unlike propane, methane cannot be compressed as much and bacially it's like trying to compress air. Propane on the other hand can be compressed at temperatures somewhere about -40 (if im right, once compressed it can be stored in a cylinder offering the ease of transportation. The same amount of methane would need a very large container.

There are other factors too such as propane's ability to provoide about two and a half times the BTUs produced by methane thus making it more feasible to carry in a cylinder which can inturn be used to power your car. So if you were considering powering an automobile using methane you would have to have something with a storage tank that is significantly large than the car itself to both store the methane and provide the same amount of energy and miles till empty.

[Pericles]

oh and I forgot to mention this; Methane unlike propane, methane cannot be compressed as much and bacially it's like trying to compress air. Propane on the other hand can be compressed at temperatures somewhere about -40 (if im right, once compressed it can be stored in a cylinder offering the ease of transportation. The same amount of methane would need a very large container.

There are other factors too such as propane's ability to provoide about two and a half times the BTUs produced by methane thus making it more feasible to carry in a cylinder which can inturn be used to power your car. So if you were considering powering an automobile using methane you would have to have something with a storage tank that is significantly large than the car itself to both store the methane and provide the same amount of energy and miles till empty.

So your saying an oversized can of baked beans wouldn't suffice like that pic shows?

[jdnet]

So your saying an oversized can of baked beans wouldn't suffice like that pic shows?

Not sure I think eating an oversized can of baked beans and then using a hose fixed to the comsumers backside and rounted directly into the engine bay of a ae110 may actually produce enough engery to run it as according to the general public the ae110 requires little to no fuel.

[Sifaan]

oh and I forgot to mention this; Methane unlike propane, methane cannot be compressed as much and bacially it's like trying to compress air. Propane on the other hand can be compressed at temperatures somewhere about -40 (if im right, once compressed it can be stored in a cylinder offering the ease of transportation. The same amount of methane would need a very large container.

of course propane has it's benefits, but for countries that have, or have easy access to, natural gas (which is mostly methane) running cars on CNG is quite economically viable