Cold Start Vibration - Fit Aria 2003

[LancerL]

I get huge vibration on my FIT Aria at each cold start when the car is in P or N, if I put it do D or R vibration will go up (Could be as the load coming), this will stays about 3-4 mins and goes away slightly.

This comes only in cold start and there is no vibration in hot start as the engine is very smooth and silent when hot.

What could be the possible cause and from where I have to start

Thanks

[PerfMad]

I get huge vibration on my FIT Aria at each cold start when the car is in P or N, if I put it do D or R vibration will go up (Could be as the load coming), this will stays about 3-4 mins and goes away slightly.

This comes only in cold start and there is no vibration in hot start as the engine is very smooth and silent when hot.

What could be the possible cause and from where I have to start

Thanks

Get your engine mount and gear box mounts checked.. vibrations could be due to bad engine mount.

However keep in mind that this car has gel mounts, where you cannot rebush like other cars, therefore you need to replace the whole thing. If im not mistaken engine mount came with 2 different parts upper and lower fitting. You need to buy both if engine mount is weak.. either way check gearbox mount as well (this is also a gel mount)

Engine mount will roughly cost you more than 10k ( i bought for mine like 2 years ago, cant remember the exact cost though) can be found in panchikawatta

[LancerL]

Get your engine mount and gear box mounts checked.. vibrations could be due to bad engine mount.

However keep in mind that this car has gel mounts, where you cannot rebush like other cars, therefore you need to replace the whole thing. If im not mistaken engine mount came with 2 different parts upper and lower fitting. You need to buy both if engine mount is weak.. either way check gearbox mount as well (this is also a gel mount)

Engine mount will roughly cost you more than 10k ( i bought for mine like 2 years ago, cant remember the exact cost though) can be found in panchikawatta

Thanks for the quick response PerfMad,

do you also experience similar vibration in cold start?

If this is due to mounts can that be happen only in cold start.

10K for all the mounts or just one mount?

[PerfMad]

Thanks for the quick response PerfMad,

do you also experience similar vibration in cold start?

If this is due to mounts can that be happen only in cold start.

10K for all the mounts or just one mount?

hmmm im not quite sure.. I changed mine cz it had a vibration and mechanic informed, mounts are weak.

In cold start usually car rev's bit higher than the idling .. therefore pls check which driving in high rev's and also in Neutral try rev'ing and see whether vibration remains same..

Mine doesnt have any vibrations machan.. not even in cold start..

if im not mistaken it was around 12k for engine mount those days.. cant exactly recall, but i spent like almost 6 hours going to each n every shop asking the prices.. you can get the top part and lower part separately (if im not mistaken)

Just curious this vibration you dont get while driving ?

Does this "when the car is in P or N, if I put it do D or R vibration will go up (Could be as the load coming)" mean vibration gets worst ?

When was the last time you did an engine tuneup and cvt oil change ?

[LancerL]

hmmm im not quite sure.. I changed mine cz it had a vibration and mechanic informed, mounts are weak.

In cold start usually car rev's bit higher than the idling .. therefore pls check which driving in high rev's and also in Neutral try rev'ing and see whether vibration remains same..

Mine doesnt have any vibrations machan.. not even in cold start..

if im not mistaken it was around 12k for engine mount those days.. cant exactly recall, but i spent like almost 6 hours going to each n every shop asking the prices.. you can get the top part and lower part separately (if im not mistaken)

Just curious this vibration you dont get while driving ?

Does this "when the car is in P or N, if I put it do D or R vibration will go up (Could be as the load coming)" mean vibration gets worst ?

When was the last time you did an engine tuneup and cvt oil change ?

Not really, once the engine worms up I wont get this! but I get the usual FIT Aria vibration in D with brake pressed.

Yes I mean on cold startup if I put to D or R the vibration get worst.

CVT change 200Kms back, Tuneup I'm not sure when the previous owner did.

[PerfMad]

Not really, once the engine worms up I wont get this! but I get the usual FIT Aria vibration in D with brake pressed.

Yes I mean on cold startup if I put to D or R the vibration get worst.

CVT change 200Kms back, Tuneup I'm not sure when the previous owner did.

hmmm .. there is no harm in doing a Tuneup however.. get a proper tuneup done. It might resolve the issue during cold start.

During the tuneup check for spark plugs , plug wires and fuel pump compression as well ..

If you dont mind me asking what's your current mileage ?

[LancerL]

I did a tuneup last weekend including below.

1. Replaced 8 Spark plugs with all new NGK BKR6E

2. Removed and cleaned 4 injectors in a injector cleaning machine and observed fine spray patterns.

3. Cleaned throttle body, Idle Air Control Valve and Mass Air Flow Sensor.

Even after all when I start the car I got the same vibration on to steering wheel. So the mechanic checked and said that the gearbox mount is bad and been re bushed by someone and suggest to replace it. So I replaced the same which cost Rs. 3,900/- and felt that the issue is OK(By this time the engine was pretty hot and I didn't get any vibration as well) and the fuel consumption was amazing as I got about 16Kmpl in the dash meter. earlier it was like 10-12.

But in next day morning when start I got same vibration again as usual and gone away when engine gets hot. I'm so disappointed with this now and can't think of what could be the reason.

Even yesterday I had a drive and it was the same experience.

Guys any idea on the matter.

Edited June 1, 2016 by LancerL

[asrock]

If the tune up is good, all spark plugs, plug wires, throttle body, IACV, MAF etc and all mounts are good, it could be the CVT it self. Does the gears engage without issue?

[Rumesh88]

Does the engine rev up on cold start?

[LancerL]

If the tune up is good, all spark plugs, plug wires, throttle body, IACV, MAF etc and all mounts are good, it could be the CVT it self. Does the gears engage without issue?

Yes gear engage is normal, I get this in P and N too. That mean no gearbox interaction ryt?

[LancerL]

Does the engine rev up on cold start?

Yah, it goes up about 2000 and comes down as normal.

Only issue is that the vibration comes in at that time, specially if the A/C is on

[Rumesh88]

Yah, it goes up about 2000 and comes down as normal.

Only issue is that the vibration comes in at that time, specially if the A/C is on

Then it looks like your EGR is leaky.

[LancerL]

Then it looks like your EGR is leaky.

Thanks, I'm planing to remove and clean the EGR valve today and a ECU reset. Will keep posted.

Can this be cleaned by a normal throttle body cleaner?

[Rumesh88]

Thanks, I'm planing to remove and clean the EGR valve today and a ECU reset. Will keep posted.

Can this be cleaned by a normal throttle body cleaner?

Yes you can. But try as far as practically possible not to get the cleaning solvent further up into the pintle mechanism (try holding it upside down for the solvent to drip down). Whenever I clean this kind of hard carbon deposits I first apply either WD40 or bit of diesel and allow it to soak into the deposits and then spray it clean. All you need to check in this case is that the pintle seats properly to seal off the port at its resting position.

[LancerL]

EGR cleaned and refitted with ECU reset. But no luck still the vibration comes at engine warming up idle.

Also I have observed one thing extra is that I kept my hand on top of the plastic cover of the engine and try to feel how it goes on engine, while the steering and dash vibrating from inside the car.

How it sense me was that there are no brakings on it and it was a continuously beat, no shaking or other hesitations.

If I recall my old car, that too had the similar beat and fell on top of the engine (But I never got such vibration on the dash or seats)

If this happens all the time, I would agree that could be a bad mount or more, but why the hell I get this only in warmup process? :sport-smiley-027: :sport-smiley-027:

Appreciate your feedback and support

[The Stig]

Did you have a look at your spark plugs and coil pack? Also check your fuel pressure.

[LancerL]

Did you have a look at your spark plugs and coil pack? Also check your fuel pressure.

All 8 spark plugs has been replaced last week. Not check the fuel pressure.

If low fuel pressure or one/more coil pack bad, then the same should happen when hot too?

[Rumesh88]

With the engine fully warm and gear in P with AC switched on, very slowly rev up from idle to just above 2000 RPM and see if you get any noticeable vibration at any particular RPM? If so you have bad engine mounts.

Another thing you can do is to do a cold start, allow it to run with the vibration for a minute or so and switch off the engine while the vibration is still going on. Then visually inspect plugs in each cylinder for carbon deposits (ie compare each with others for any differences) after allowing the engine block to cool down for a while.

BTW when was your transmission fluid was last changed?

[LancerL]

With the engine fully warm and gear in P with AC switched on, very slowly rev up from idle to just above 2000 RPM and see if you get any noticeable vibration at any particular RPM? If so you have bad engine mounts.

Another thing you can do is to do a cold start, allow it to run with the vibration for a minute or so and switch off the engine while the vibration is still going on. Then visually inspect plugs in each cylinder for carbon deposits (ie compare each with others for any differences) after allowing the engine block to cool down for a while.

BTW when was your transmission fluid was last changed?

Thanks a lot for the input Rumesh88. Yes, last night I did this when the engine was hot and I get a slight vibration in around 1200RPM. So that sound it is bad engine mount

Is there any other way that I could verify the same? I mean jack-up the engine before start or something like that.

[Rumesh88]

Yes. You can jack up the engine by a couple of mms but keep a rubber block (or a couple of small wooden blocks) between the jack and the engine block to allow a degree of freedom in movement should the engine vibrates violently. What can happen is that since the engine is suspended on flexible mounts it has a certain natural frequency of oscillation. If the engine beat comes close to this frequency the whole thing can vibrate violently.

[LancerL]

I visit the garage yesterday and check all mounts, all were OK.

When I was complaining about the morning vibration they removed the EGR valve again and cleaned (I didn't mentioned that I did the same earlier) I asked the guy to check it is working properly and he connected the power connector keeping the EGR on his hand and asked me to put the ignition, but it didn't work, then he took 12V car battery and try to make it work giving supply to it's pins and that way either it didn't work.

His final conclusion was that this works only for ECU pulse and not for 12V supply and only in cold start :speechless-smiley-019: and he fixed it back immediately with applying grease to the seal instead of any silicone or a gasket sealer.

Then he removed intake pressure sensor and cleaned and fixed back with a ECU reset by battery terminal. Since the engine was hot I could not check the situation on yesterday, but will keep posted the status with today evening cold start.

Also I have couple of questions on EGR.

1. EGR should function with the ignition switch when hot or will operate only when cold.

2. Why it didn't work for 12V supply, does that works with only ECU pulse? if not has it burned?

3. Can morning vibration could be due to this, if EGR is the culprit?

4. Applying Grease as a sealant ?

Expecting your valuable advice.

Thanks

Edited June 6, 2016 by LancerL

[Dushyantha]

seems like your mechanic isnt very cooperative . Im not an expert but i think the egr doesnt need any special pulse to operate . I have seen people apply grease on injector O rings before fixing them urs maybe a similar situation

[Rumesh88]

I visit the garage yesterday and check all mounts, all were OK.

When I was complaining about the morning vibration they removed the EGR valve again and cleaned (I didn't mentioned that I did the same earlier) I asked the guy to check it is working properly and he connected the power connector keeping the EGR on his hand and asked me to put the ignition, but it didn't work, then he took 12V car battery and try to make it work giving supply to it's pins and that way either it didn't work.

His final conclusion was that this works only for ECU pulse and not for 12V supply and only in cold start :speechless-smiley-019: and he fixed it back immediately with applying grease to the seal instead of any silicone or a gasket sealer.

Then he removed intake pressure sensor and cleaned and fixed back with a ECU reset by battery terminal. Since the engine was hot I could not check the situation on yesterday, but will keep posted the status with today evening cold start.

Also I have couple of questions on EGR.

1. EGR should function with the ignition switch when hot or will operate only when cold.

2. Why it didn't work for 12V supply, does that works with only ECU pulse? if not has it burned?

3. Can morning vibration could be due to this, if EGR is the culprit?

4. Applying Grease as a sealant ?

Expecting your valuable advice.

Thanks

Your EGR should have five terminals connected to it (3 on the first row and two on bottom row). It is not advisable to apply 12V to test it. However, taking care only to apply the voltage for a short (less than one second) period you can do an ad hoc test on it with 12V provided you know what you are doing. You need a adjustable 12V supply if you really want to test it properly. ECU provides special Pulse With Modulated (PWM) signal to operate it. Other three terminals acts as a position sensor to give a feedback to the ECU. Both solenoid and sensor part can be tested with a meter and an adjustable power supply

EGR does not operate on idle, cold or otherwise. Hence when you switch on ignition it does not operate. It only activates at light loads like at cruising speeds, going downhill etc. So the methods used by your mechanic is all wrong but if he applied 12V to correct terminals at least the solenoid should have snapped momentarily. If he applied it to wrong terminals then the position sensor could have got damaged. Cold start vibration could be due to EGR but not because whether it is operating or not but due to a vacuum leak when it is supposed to be fully closed.

As for applying grease as a sealant, in fact that would not provide any sealing in the long run but when you are compelled to use the existing gasket applying grease helps to soften the surface a bit and allow you to reuse the gasket. This particular gasket is subjected to extreme temperatures and grease will get melted away after sometime but if the existing gasket is good it will provide necessary sealing.

Hope your questions are answered now.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Rumesh88

[LancerL]

Your EGR should have five terminals connected to it (3 on the first row and two on bottom row). It is not advisable to apply 12V to test it. However, taking care only to apply the voltage for a short (less than one second) period you can do an ad hoc test on it with 12V provided you know what you are doing. You need a adjustable 12V supply if you really want to test it properly. ECU provides special Pulse With Modulated (PWM) signal to operate it. Other three terminals acts as a position sensor to give a feedback to the ECU. Both solenoid and sensor part can be tested with a meter and an adjustable power supply

EGR does not operate on idle, cold or otherwise. Hence when you switch on ignition it does not operate. It only activates at light loads like at cruising speeds, going downhill etc. So the methods used by your mechanic is all wrong but if he applied 12V to correct terminals at least the solenoid should have snapped momentarily. If he applied it to wrong terminals then the position sensor could have got damaged. Cold start vibration could be due to EGR but not because whether it is operating or not but due to a vacuum leak when it is supposed to be fully closed.

As for applying grease as a sealant, in fact that would not provide any sealing in the long run but when you are compelled to use the existing gasket applying grease helps to soften the surface a bit and allow you to reuse the gasket. This particular gasket is subjected to extreme temperatures and grease will get melted away after sometime but if the existing gasket is good it will provide necessary sealing.

Hope your questions are answered now.

Hi Rumesh88

Thanks a lot for the quick and detailed explanation, really appreciate it.

Since the gasket was in good condition, I guess that has been properly sealed.

I was so busy and couldn't have look on it. Let me update the status ASAP.

Thanks

[LancerL]

Hi all

A strange thing happened yesterday, when I start the car after 2 days. Instead of cranking the starter motor, my A/C blower start running all of a sudden while the A/C was in off position (I know this is very strange to hear even) tried couple of times, checked fuses and removed battery terminal and reconnected. Still no luck and I was so down with the situation.

After couple of calls I managed to get through to mechanic who worked for agents and now running his own workshop. when I call him luckily he was on his way home and closer to my place. When he comes and when I tell the problem the first thing he did was put the key and checked for Dash indicators and said the ground line is loose and asked me have I done anything and I said I only removed the positive line from battery. He rechecked the terminals and all were OK.

Then he put his hand under the throttle body and asked me to On the key and see if Check engine light coming while pressing something, yes the light came up.

His conclusion was that there is a Ground line loose connection and need to tight it up, I have given set of required tools to him and he removed air filter assay and tighten up two loosen Grounding bolts, one was on engine block and other was on body (I saw the body one was sparking when revving) switch off and started couple of times and there were no issue and he re fixed everything properly.

His explanation about the symptom was that some of the electrical parts was not receiving power due to loosen connection and it complete the circuit half away from somewhere else and caused to run the blower fan instead of running starter motor.

You don't believe the miracle happens after that, The cold start vibration I used to get has totally disappeared and the driving is smooth like butter now!!!!

I had only chance to run only yesterday and need further testing on today and weekend to verify the same as I don't know that this is temperately or due to something else.

Will keep post the status.