Ek3 Alternator Problem

sira · June 3, 2016

Dear Friends

Today i noticed my dashboard battery indicator came on for a 5 min then gone. then after 10 min it came back and stay on for 10 min . then gone.

so i checked with Auto technician and he open the alternator and said the Slip ring of the rotor has worn and need to replace with new rotor. then said the stater coli has fried too. he said the cost will be 7500.

I hold this repair and went to Delkanda. Checked almost every shops but couldn't find the correct part. this is 3 wire unit. finally brought 4 wire alternator from Vtec honda EK3 engine.

how ever when i check it at the auto repair shop, it seems faulty too.

then i asked the technician to replace rotor and stater coils. the fixed and test on a bench seems fine. How ever after fixed it to car, it start generating high voltage and my head lights burned in 2 sec.

quickly i stop the car. the technician want to keep more time i said it will damage some electronics too. tomorrow he want to change the IC , looks bit a strange to me.

dose this effect ECU and other component. i did not leave the car more than 1 min.
where can i find the alternator for this car? Ek3 Exi 98

sira

Vengeance · June 3, 2016

Any alternator is capable of producing a high voltage, this is actually controlled (regulated) by the voltage regulator of the alternator, so I think you should get that checked out first. Irrespective of whether the voltage was too high or too low, it'll usually be the battery that takes a hit. Since in this ocassion the alternator was on for less than a minute, it really shouldn't have an effect on the battery.

On 6/3/2016 at 4:12 PM, sira said:
dose this effect ECU and other component. i did not leave the car more than 1 min.

1 minute is too long to leave the car running with a faulty alternator or voltage regulator, even a few seconds are sufficient to fry the circuits. Almost all critical components of a car are protected by fuses to prevent any damage from amperage so I think you're safe, but its hard to say anything without knowing what actually happened.

Probably your headlight fuse is fried, check the fuse box for any other fried fuses as well. Be careful next time as repairing an electrical system that got burnt ain't gonna be cheap

Twin Turbo · June 4, 2016

Sad to read your dilemma of the fried alternator.

In examining your prob in detail, it would be wise to replace the entire unit.

It is advisable to look into the possible cause and address it in order to avoid repeating of the same.
Kindly ref. previous posts on flood damage and engine washing.

The possibility of the alternator killing the entire electrical system exists and takes mili-seconds if the fuses dont zappout first.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Twin Turbo

sira · June 4, 2016

Hi Guys

finally I managed to find a suitable alternator from Kiribathgoda area , place called "dirulk" . cost me 7000. this is little bigger but and brackets are compatible.. . can fixed .seems OK and checked the voltage after start and it showed me 14.3V. three was no any other damage than head lights. those was i got down from UK - Osram Night breaker for around 10£.

Just noticed after 2, 3 hours drive the Idle is bit a low than earlier. not sure this cause due to high voltage issue. so need to monitor thoroughly.

Thanks

Sira

Vengeance · June 4, 2016

On 6/4/2016 at 3:39 PM, sira said:
Hi Guys
finally I managed to find a suitable alternator from Kiribathgoda area , place called "dirulk" . cost me 7000. this is little bigger but and brackets are compatible.. . can fixed .seems OK and checked the voltage after start and it showed me 14.3V. three was no any other damage than head lights. those was i got down from UK - Osram Night breaker for around 10£.

Just noticed after 2, 3 hours drive the Idle is bit a low than earlier. not sure this cause due to high voltage issue. so need to monitor thoroughly.

Thanks

Sira

This is perfectly normal as the battery's -ve cable must have been removed while installing the alternator. Your ECU has got reset during the process and is still in its learning phase.

The idle RPM will vary as the ECU tries to adjust it towards a stoichiometric fuel / air mixture. This should become normal after a few drive cycles (probably after a day or two), try to keep the RPMs low and drive smoothly during the period.

Dushyantha · June 4, 2016

Rather than checking the compatibility of brackets shouldn't the amperage of the new alternator be checked when fixing a different alternator ?

sira · June 4, 2016

On 6/4/2016 at 4:25 PM, Dushyantha said:
Rather than checking the compatibility of brackets shouldn't the amperage of the new alternator be checked when fixing a different alternator ?

the model of this alternator is very difficult to find. so my last resort was to replace with what ever possible and bring my car live. it is really pain full task to find the parts of this car either.

high amperage may not be issue (i guess) if not low amperage. there will be fuel consumption increase it its a big one.

Vengeance · June 4, 2016

On 6/4/2016 at 4:25 PM, Dushyantha said:
Rather than checking the compatibility of brackets shouldn't the amperage of the new alternator be checked when fixing a different alternator ?

On 6/4/2016 at 7:15 PM, sira said:
the model of this alternator is very difficult to find. so my last resort was to replace with what ever possible and bring my car live. it is really pain full task to find the parts of this car either.
high amperage may not be issue (i guess) if not low amperage. there will be fuel consumption increase it its a big one.

Yes, the amperage of the new alternator should be equal or higher and never lower. For example, if the ECU needs about 8-9 amps to operate, it will not draw anymore current than that irrespective of the amperage of the alternator. This is the same for all other electrical components, so its fine to use an alternator with higher amperage if you can't find an exact match, plus it'll last a lot longer as there is less stress on it.

The increase in fuel consumption will be minor, alternators don't run at full output all the time, they are demand driven units.

Even if they run at full load, assuming both alternators work at 100% efficiency, using P=VI and taking V=14:

90 amps alternator is around 1300watts and 130amps alternator is around 1800watts.

Therefore the difference between these two alternators would be about 500watts which is about 0.67 mechanical horsepower (745.7watts = 1 hp) which would be negligible.

Edited June 4, 2016 by maxxarox

Dushyantha · June 5, 2016

On 6/4/2016 at 7:15 PM, sira said:
the model of this alternator is very difficult to find. so my last resort was to replace with what ever possible and bring my car live. it is really pain full task to find the parts of this car either.
high amperage may not be issue (i guess) if not low amperage. there will be fuel consumption increase it its a big one.

ohh . yep . in that case a larger alternator would be ok i guess . Still as twin turbo said better find the fault that fried the stator coils in the first place .

Edited June 5, 2016 by Dushyantha

sira · June 5, 2016

On 6/4/2016 at 4:20 PM, maxxarox said:
This is perfectly normal as the battery's -ve cable must have been removed while installing the alternator. Your ECU has got reset during the process and is still in its learning phase.
The idle RPM will vary as the ECU tries to adjust it towards a stoichiometric fuel / air mixture. This should become normal after a few drive cycles (probably after a day or two), try to keep the RPMs low and drive smoothly during the period.

Hi max

it seems not correct now. i can see the idle is up when i switch on the AC. but with AC and Head lights on idle goes down. one guy told me if you leave the power disconnect for a long time ECU re-set and you need to reset the throttle body . never heard that . any idea?

kusumsiri · June 5, 2016

On 6/5/2016 at 4:20 PM, sira said:
Hi max
it seems not correct now. i can see the idle is up when i switch on the AC. but with AC and Head lights on idle goes down. one guy told me if you leave the power disconnect for a long time ECU re-set and you need to reset the throttle body . never heard that . any idea?

What is "reset the throttle body" ? Is there a reset switch on throttle body ? Did John-Bass say this ?

sira · June 6, 2016

Kusumsiri

this may be re-calibrate the IACV after whole ECU reset due to power disconnect over night.

Rumesh88 · June 6, 2016

On 6/5/2016 at 11:44 PM, kusumsiri said:
What is "reset the throttle body" ? Is there a reset switch on throttle body ? Did John-Bass say this ?

That's TPS (in Honda terminology it is in fact called a Throttle Angle Sensor)reset at idle. Some vehicles TPS is a four terminal device with an internal switch to identify the idle position and does not require resetting, in others it is three terminal one which can be moved by a few degrees while some comes built into the throttle body and may require a reset procedure (Nissans for example). But in this case the TPS is a three terminal one (correct me if I am wrong) and the throttle position is identified by the ECU each time the car is started. Now that you changed the alternator check if your car come with a Electronic Load Detection (ELD) cos it has an impact on idle speed. Unit is located inside under the hood fuse box. Search the net for a pic.

kusumsiri · June 6, 2016

On 6/6/2016 at 3:59 AM, Rumesh88 said:
That's TPS (in Honda terminology it is in fact called a Throttle Angle Sensor)reset at idle. Some vehicles TPS is a four terminal device with an internal switch to identify the idle position and does not require resetting, in others it is three terminal one which can be moved by a few degrees while some comes built into the throttle body and may require a reset procedure (Nissans for example). But in this case the TPS is a three terminal one (correct me if I am wrong) and the throttle position is identified by the ECU each time the car is started. Now that you changed the alternator check if your car come with a Electronic Load Detection (ELD) cos it has an impact on idle speed. Unit is located inside under the hood fuse box. Search the net for a pic.

Thank you Rumesh for clear explanation.

sira · June 6, 2016

On 6/6/2016 at 3:59 AM, Rumesh88 said:
That's TPS (in Honda terminology it is in fact called a Throttle Angle Sensor)reset at idle. Some vehicles TPS is a four terminal device with an internal switch to identify the idle position and does not require resetting, in others it is three terminal one which can be moved by a few degrees while some comes built into the throttle body and may require a reset procedure (Nissans for example). But in this case the TPS is a three terminal one (correct me if I am wrong) and the throttle position is identified by the ECU each time the car is started. Now that you changed the alternator check if your car come with a Electronic Load Detection (ELD) cos it has an impact on idle speed. Unit is located inside under the hood fuse box. Search the net for a pic.

Hi Rumesh

Thank you for the explanation. will it be possible me to re-set this TPS ? and how can i test the ELD unit is working or not.

Vengeance · June 6, 2016

On 6/6/2016 at 5:24 AM, sira said:
Thank you for the explanation. will it be possible me to re-set this TPS ? and how can i test the ELD unit is working or not.

Check the alternator belt, output voltage (with load / without load), the ground connections (check the resistance) and current output (with load / without load) since its the alternator you have replaced.

As Rumesh has mentioned above, the TPS doesn't have to be reset. The ELD unit is located inside the fuse/relay box under your hood, I have attached a photo below for reference, the one in your car may vary in size and the exact location inside the fuse box.

The ELD measures the combined load (current draw of the electrical components) and sends an input voltage to the ECU. The ECU will then vary the field strength of the alternator which in turn increases the output as required. So basically, the ELD checks whether there's an additonal draw of current from the battery and if not, it'll keep the output of the alternator at minimum (12.3V) which is sufficient to charge the battery and run the basic componenets of your car.

Therefore in turn the ELD reduces your fuel consumption and increases the lifetime of your alternator. As far as I know, if the ELD goes bad it should throw up an error code and give you a check engine light.

I'm not sure of a way to test the ELD, but there is a way to bypass the ELD temporarily so you can check whether your rpm returns to normal: http://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/board/topic/139844-how-to-eld-bypass-for-honda-civicaccordfit/

Only attempt this if you know what you're doing and use help from an auto technician or honda expert if you want to proceed. I wouldn't advice bypassing the ELD permanently as that can leave your alternator running 24/7 at max output and would heavily affect the lifetime of your alternator.

sira · June 8, 2016

Dear Friends

On 6/6/2016 at 7:27 AM, maxxarox said:
Check the alternator belt, output voltage (with load / without load), the ground connections (check the resistance) and current output (with load / without load) since its the alternator you have replaced.
As Rumesh has mentioned above, the TPS doesn't have to be reset. The ELD unit is located inside the fuse/relay box under your hood, I have attached a photo below for reference, the one in your car may vary in size and the exact location inside the fuse box.

The ELD measures the combined load (current draw of the electrical components) and sends an input voltage to the ECU. The ECU will then vary the field strength of the alternator which in turn increases the output as required. So basically, the ELD checks whether there's an additonal draw of current from the battery and if not, it'll keep the output of the alternator at minimum (12.3V) which is sufficient to charge the battery and run the basic componenets of your car.

Therefore in turn the ELD reduces your fuel consumption and increases the lifetime of your alternator. As far as I know, if the ELD goes bad it should throw up an error code and give you a check engine light.

I'm not sure of a way to test the ELD, but there is a way to bypass the ELD temporarily so you can check whether your rpm returns to normal: http://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/board/topic/139844-how-to-eld-bypass-for-honda-civicaccordfit/

Only attempt this if you know what you're doing and use help from an auto technician or honda expert if you want to proceed. I wouldn't advice bypassing the ELD permanently as that can leave your alternator running 24/7 at max output and would heavily affect the lifetime of your alternator.

Hi

This is brand new version and no ELD. I was ashamed why the brand new cars dose not have more features. 96 Ek3 recons has more features, such as ABS , air bag....etc. but this dose not have even O2 sensor.

sira · June 8, 2016

Dear Friends

Finally i managed to fix the Idle issue. I cleaned the Throttle body by my self. i was bit a scared ,but one fried said it is piece of cake. yes it is ,

if you do it carefully.

there were lots of carbons surrounding the throttle body area and IACV. carefully removed the IACV valve coil unit and cleaned the moving parts. cleaned the whole throttle area then fixed back.

once you start the engine i realized it was on leaning stage . which is really interesting (thank max). engine revs high - normal. then again high .low.....then press gas , it goes high and and release the gas come back to 1000 rpm and again went to 1200.....

finally after 5 ,10 min engine came back to normal 700 rpm and with AC on it increase up to 900 and when AC is off goes back to 700 straightaway.

the issue i had was as soon as AC goes off, the Idle goes below 500 and like wobble.

I have not cleaned throttle body for 4-3 years as no error so far. should we cleaned periodically?

thank you all for your valuable advice

Sira

Edited June 8, 2016 by sira

Vengeance · June 8, 2016

On 6/8/2016 at 4:24 AM, sira said:
I have not cleaned throttle body for 4-3 years as no error so far. should we cleaned periodically?

Glad you managed to fix the issue. So that explains it, your throttle body was dirty and the ECU/PCM has adapted to the dirt which has accumulated over time. Once you removed the battery and re-fixed it, the ECU was reset and this caused the idling issue.

You can go ahead and clean your MAF sensor as well to get better gas mileage if it hasn't been cleaned for a while, be warned that this is a very delicate sensor so handle it with care and use MAF cleaner. There are plenty of guides on the web if you're interested.

A throttle body service isn't part of the regular maintenace schedule, so it doesn't have a period to be serviced (i.e. every 20k kms). I remember Toyota recommending a service interval for the throttle body for the Prius, but haven't seen this on regular cars. Its personal preference and most people don't clean them until an issue arises, sometimes they may even have to replace the MAF sensor due to this.

Cleaning the throttle body and MAF sensor everytime you replace the airfilter with a new one or roughly every 20k - 40k kms would be ideal.

Edited June 9, 2016 by maxxarox

The Stig · June 9, 2016

On 6/8/2016 at 4:24 AM, sira said:
Dear Friends
Finally i managed to fix the Idle issue. I cleaned the Throttle body by my self. i was bit a scared ,but one fried said it is piece of cake. yes it is ,

if you do it carefully.

there were lots of carbons surrounding the throttle body area and IACV. carefully removed the IACV valve coil unit and cleaned the moving parts. cleaned the whole throttle area then fixed back.

once you start the engine i realized it was on leaning stage . which is really interesting (thank max). engine revs high - normal. then again high .low.....then press gas , it goes high and and release the gas come back to 1000 rpm and again went to 1200.....

finally after 5 ,10 min engine came back to normal 700 rpm and with AC on it increase up to 900 and when AC is off goes back to 700 straightaway.

the issue i had was as soon as AC goes off, the Idle goes below 500 and like wobble.

I have not cleaned throttle body for 4-3 years as no error so far. should we cleaned periodically?

thank you all for your valuable advice

Sira

A throttle body cleanup should be part of the normal tuneup routine. If you have done a tuneup recently whoever did it has not done a good job, find a new place. If you haven't well you should do one atleast once a year, there is no hard and fast rule as to when a tuneup should be done.

On 6/8/2016 at 8:11 AM, maxxarox said:

Glad you managed to fix the issue. So that explains it, your throttle body was dirty and the ECU/PCM has adapted to the dirt which has accumulated over time. Once you removed the battery and re-fixed it, the ECU was reset and this caused the idling issue.

You can go ahead and clean your MAF sensor as well to get better gas mileage if it hasn't been cleaned for a while, be warned that this is a very delicate sensor so handle it with care and use MAF cleaner. There are plenty of guides on the web if you're interested.

A throttle body service isn't part of the regular maintenace schedule, so it doesn't have a period to be serviced (i.e. every 20k kms). I remember Toyota recommending a service interval for the throttle body for the Prius, but haven't seen this on regular cars. Its personal preference and most people don't clean them until an issue arises, sometimes they may even have to replace the MAF sensor.

Cleaning the throttle body and MAF sensor everytime you replace the airfilter with a new one or roughly every 20k - 40k kms would be ideal.

Maf cleaners are not available locally, we use crc contact cleaner for the job.

Btw on the contact cleaner topic has anyone used the Philips contact cleaner(it's available in a certain online marketplace) ?