Fit GP1 Oil Level Drops

[vitz]

Experts

We got a GP1 (2012), 83000km clocked

- I noticed a drastic drop of engine oil level, I need to top up engine oil once to twice during the service interval. What is the problem?

I wanted to do a tuneup and replacement of plugs done from the Stafford assuming the problem would be solved. Since there are no service reservations available till 22nd Feb, I was compelled to take the vehicle to one of their dealer in Kurunegala. Before visiting the place today,  I got a confirmation on the availability of spark plugs with them, but after cleaning injectors and throttle body, they said that spark plugs are not available (typical irresponsible feed back from SL response) . We cleaned all 8 plugs and put them back.  Anyways, it allowed me to take a pic of the present status of the spark plugs (see below). One of the mechanic was saying that deposits on the plug could be due to sludge formation and this can be solved by cleaning the piston areas and changing piston rings. He was saying oil level drop is resulted by the sludge formation. I am not much sure about what he says?.

 We bought this car unregistered in 2013 (15000km clocked) and serviced timely. It is a daily long distance runner (160 km). Hard to believe a sludge formation. 

For first services in during first one and half years we had to use 10w-30 oil since 0W-20 was not available. Then we reverted to 0w-20, could this be a reason?. Do you think shifting to 10W-30 would solve the problem?

Edited February 18, 2017 by vitz

[vitz]

2 hours ago, Sam B said:

I own a GP1 2013 that has clocked nearly 57000km now. Been servicing every 5000km with Havoline ECO 5. Noticed that oil level had dropped by around 1cm in my last service (after 5000km and 4 months since the service before). Bought it unregistered after verifying with pre-shipment inspectors that mileage is genuine (had done 28k in Japan), so I don't believe that the engine is worn. Is this place in Polgolla better than Staffords to get the issue inspected and remedied? 

 

I would wait for another service interval and verify. Please note that the oil level can drop drastically without your notice. Please inspect the oil level frequently.

Your case also suggest that this is an inherent problem of some GP1 irrespective of timely service. 

I got done my vehicle repaired from Polgolla Axx Sxxx since I am living in Kandy and they did a satisfactory job. I cannot compare stafford and this place. If you are in Colombo, why not Staford.

[Twin Turbo]

Q: IS the engine burning or leaking oil.?

Put an old news paper under the engine over night afer a drive.

If there's a leak you'll find oil on the paper.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Twin Turbo

[Rumesh88]

The images are not visible in my browser for some reason. However, something does not add up to the given mileage figures. For 03 years you have run 68000 kms ie 23,900 kms a year, ie less than 2000 kms a month. If the daily run is 160 kms then it is a 12 day run a month on average. Although you run 160 kms a day do you leave the car idle regularly for extended periods like 2 weeks in between? Then there is a possibility for deposits to form on moving parts. BTW how often do you change oil? Before deciding to go for a piston rings change get a compression test done and sort out if the oil burn is through piston rings or valve guides. Do you get any white smoke on high revs?

Use of 10W30 oil for some time should not be a reason for the oil burn assuming the services was done regularly on time.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Rumesh88

[vitz]

Thanks TT. 

I could not see any sign of burning oil. The exhaust is very clear, but I noticed a 2 mm wide black stain around the tip of the exhaust pipe (see below). However, I wiped it out to monitor.

Surely, engine oil is not leaking out from

Is it because 0w-20 is too thin?

I am thinking of shifting from 0w-20 to 30 next time and see what happens!!!!

[vitz]

20 minutes ago, Rumesh88 said:

Ramesh:

Sorry for the confusion, I meant car was not a short distance runner. Due to the nature of my work, I don't drive daily also we bought this car in Dec. 2013. Nop, we haven't left the car idle regularly. 

BTW how often do you change oil? When honda synthetic was used, 8000-9000, now with toyota 6000-7000 as we did not use it for short distance running. I accept delays of servicing the vehicle!!! 

Do you get any white smoke on high revs? - no except in the morning. 

 

 

[vitz]

photo of plugs

[Rumesh88]

35 minutes ago, vitz said:

photo of plugs

Are the plugs Iridium or regular? I cannot see an iridium tip in the pic. BTW how often do you inspect the plugs? Let alone the oil deposits but the plug itself is way over due for a replacement IMO.The smoke in the morning can sometimes be steam but if it is oil you get a oil burning smell and if so it could be due to stuck or worn out piston rings particularly if it happens only when the engine is cold. Best thing is to get a compression test done (still better done when the engine is cold). Ask them to do a "wet test" as well by pouring in a small amount of oil on to the piston to determine if the valve guide are leaking. 

Switching to 10W-30 may reduce oil burning but will not solve it. Another thing you can try is to pour a tea spoon of engine oil on to each piston head (one has to use a syringe and a tube to get access through the plug hole to do it cleanly. Same thing is done during a "wet test"), fix the plugs back and leave the car for a couple of days before starting again. (Perhaps you may have to call up a mechanic to do it at your home). This might loosen up the deposits on the chamber side of the rings and may set them free if they are stuck. It is not a permanent fix but will help in identifying the issue and perhaps  may solve it hopefully for another few thousand kms.

[zeem35]

According to my research its due to the 0w20 fully synthetic oil.

Many are having the same issue, its due to sludge formation. The 0W20 oil is fully synthetic and is designed for heavy use. I basically drive around colombo is its subjected to constant engine heating up and cooling down plus longer oil change intervals 8000kms or 6 months. Resulting in the formation of sludge.

Honda fit gp1 and insight have the same engine. Do a google search "honda insight engine oil burn"  many have complained!

Its better to use 5W30 with semi synthetic short oil change intetvals 4000kms.

I rented out a honda fit gp1 for last 2 months and noticed engine knock feeling. I checked the oil and guess what it was empty with black tar kind of formation.

 

[vitz]

1 hour ago, Rumesh88 said:

Ramesh,

These are laser iridium plugs (stock-OEM). NGK recommends a replacement interval for 80000-12000 miles.  I' ve never inspected. In honda fit GP1, removal plugs is a quite cumbersome process!!!! we even have to remove exhaust manifold to reach plugs!!!!

I"ll check the oil smell. But the exhaust is moist and even with some water droplets.

Thanks for wet test option. I am not technically that sound to to perform this. I"ll take the vehicle to Stafford get done the compression test.

My wife is using this vehicle for her long hour trip to report to work. Is there any danger of sudden breakdown? 

 

 

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Are the plugs Iridium or regular? I cannot see an iridium tip in the pic. BTW how often do you inspect the plugs? Let alone the oil deposits but the plug itself is way over due for a replacement IMO.The smoke in the morning can sometimes be steam but if it is oil you get a oil burning smell and if so it could be due to stuck or worn out piston rings particularly if it happens only when the engine is cold. Best thing is to get a compression test done (still better done when the engine is cold). Ask them to do a "wet test" as well by pouring in a small amount of oil on to the piston to determine if the valve guide are leaking. 

Switching to 10W-30 may reduce oil burning but will not solve it. Another thing you can try is to pour a tea spoon of engine oil on to each piston head (one has to use a syringe and a tube to get access through the plug hole to do it cleanly. Same thing is done during a "wet test"), fix the plugs back and leave the car for a couple of days before starting again. (Perhaps you may have to call up a mechanic to do it at your home). This might loosen up the deposits on the chamber side of the rings and may set them free if they are stuck. It is not a permanent fix but will help in identifying the issue and perhaps  may solve it hopefully for another few thousand kms.

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by vitz

[vitz]

1 hour ago, zeem35 said:

According to my research its due to the 0w20 fully synthetic oil.

Many are having the same issue, its due to sludge formation. The 0W20 oil is fully synthetic and is designed for heavy use. I basically drive around colombo is its subjected to constant engine heating up and cooling down plus longer oil change intervals 8000kms or 6 months. Resulting in the formation of sludge.

Honda fit gp1 and insight have the same engine. Do a google search "honda insight engine oil burn"  many have complained!

Its better to use 5W30 with semi synthetic short oil change intetvals 4000kms.

I rented out a honda fit gp1 for last 2 months and noticed engine knock feeling. I checked the oil and guess what it was empty with black tar kind of formation.

 

This vehicle was heavily used, as I mentioned non-stop long trip -80 km

The machanic at the service station also said that this is a common problem in Honda and replacement of piston rings would solve the problem.

[Rumesh88]

4 minutes ago, vitz said:

This vehicle was heavily used, as I mentioned non-stop long trip -80 km

The machanic at the service station also said that this is a common problem in Honda and replacement of piston rings would solve the problem.

If the dealer is that confident then you will have to get the rings changed i am afraid. Until you get it done you can run with 10W-30 but keep monitoring the oil level regularly for any reduction and fill up as required. It is not possible for the car to breakdown suddenly due to this kind of issue.

[Rohnd]

2 hours ago, vitz said:

This vehicle was heavily used, as I mentioned non-stop long trip -80 km

The machanic at the service station also said that this is a common problem in Honda and replacement of piston rings would solve the problem.

This could be from worn Valve stem Seal (oil) rather than the piston rings. Little smoke at the start (at idling) and then disappear within very few minutes is a sign for this fault while piston ring failures lead to give constant smoke every time when the engine is active,

At the both cases oily stain at the tip of the exhaust end is a common sign.

Dry black deposits on the center electrode ceramic area of the spark plug also shows this could be originated from leaky valve  seals.

You will not be noticed any reduction in pulling power at this fault.

Changing the viscosity of the oil won't help.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Rohnd
An addition

[vitz]

2 hours ago, Rumesh88 said:

If the dealer is that confident then you will have to get the rings changed i am afraid. Until you get it done you can run with 10W-30 but keep monitoring the oil level regularly for any reduction and fill up as required. It is not possible for the car to breakdown suddenly due to this kind of issue.

Thanks. I"ll take the vehicle to Stafford and give an update. 

[vitz]

36 minutes ago, Rohnd said:

This could be from worn Valve stem Seal (oil) rather than the piston rings. Little smoke at the start (at idling) and then disappear within very few minutes is a sign for this fault while piston ring failures lead to give constant smoke every time when the engine is active,

At the both cases oily stain at the tip of the exhaust end is a common sign.

Dry black deposits on the center electrode ceramic area of the spark plug also shows this could be originated from leaky valve  seals.

You will not be noticed any reduction in pulling power at this fault.

Changing the viscosity of the oil won't help.

Thanks. Is it a big repair needing the attention of the agent. Or a machanic could do it?

I examined exhaust at high rev (4000), no sign of burning oil. Exhaust is quite moist even with some water droplets.  

By the way, see the figure below. This is the only sign of burning oil I noticed....

 

[Jor-el]

8 hours ago, Rumesh88 said:

Although you run 160 kms a day do you leave the car idle regularly for extended periods like 2 weeks in between? Then there is a possibility for deposits to form on moving parts.

@Rumesh88 Does this happen even if the engine oil is changed every 6 months ( conventional oil, not synthetic/s. synthetic ) and the car is driven 2 times a week, about 20-25 kms (both trips combined) ?

Edited February 19, 2017 by Jor-el

[vitz]

54 minutes ago, Jor-el said:

@Rumesh88 Does this happen even if the engine oil is changed every 6 months ( conventional oil, not synthetic/s. synthetic ) and the car is driven 2 times a week, about 20-25 kms (both trips combined) ?

 

9 hours ago, Rumesh88 said:

The images are not visible in my browser for some reason. However, something does not add up to the given mileage figures. For 03 years you have run 68000 kms ie 23,900 kms a year, ie less than 2000 kms a month. If the daily run is 160 kms then it is a 12 day run a month on average. Although you run 160 kms a day do you leave the car idle regularly for extended periods like 2 weeks in between? Then there is a possibility for deposits to form on moving parts. BTW how often do you change oil? Before deciding to go for a piston rings change get a compression test done and sort out if the oil burn is through piston rings or valve guides. Do you get any white smoke on high revs?

Use of 10W30 oil for some time should not be a reason for the oil burn assuming the services was done regularly on time.

History of oil change from mid sept 2015

1st Sept 2015 -                   (Honda sync oil)

20th Nov 2015 - 9387 km   (Honda sync oil)

11th Mar 2016 - 7365 km    (Honda sync oil)

26th June 2016 - 9061 km   (Honda sync oil)

14th Oct 2016 - 9091 km     (toyota min)

10th Jan 2017 - 5977          (toyota min)

Edited February 19, 2017 by vitz

[Rumesh88]

1 hour ago, Jor-el said:

@Rumesh88 Does this happen even if the engine oil is changed every 6 months ( conventional oil, not synthetic/s. synthetic ) and the car is driven 2 times a week, about 20-25 kms (both trips combined) ?

If it is mineral oil you need not worry but make sure to change it every 6 months even if the mileage is low.

[Jor-el]

56 minutes ago, vitz said:

 

History of oil change from mid sept 2015

1st Sept 2015 -                   (Honda sync oil)

20th Nov 2015 - 9387 km   (Honda sync oil)

11th Mar 2016 - 7365 km    (Honda sync oil)

26th June 2016 - 9061 km   (Honda sync oil)

14th Oct 2016 - 9091 km     (toyota min)

10th Jan 2017 - 5977          (toyota min)

It's advised to change engine oil every 5000km if its mineral...

[Jor-el]

18 minutes ago, Rumesh88 said:

If it is mineral oil you need not worry but make sure to change it every 6 months even if the mileage is low.

Yep engine oil is changed every 6 months regardless of the mileage  (or if it hits 5k km before 6 months)

I was in the opinion that synth oils are formulated to avoid sludge formation and have less chance of sludge formation compared to mineral oil   (atleast that's what oil manufacturers say.) 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Jor-el

[Rohnd]

5 hours ago, vitz said:

Thanks. Is it a big repair needing the attention of the agent. Or a machanic could do it?

I examined exhaust at high rev (4000), no sign of burning oil. Exhaust is quite moist even with some water droplets.  

By the way, see the figure below. This is the only sign of burning oil I noticed....

 

Agent may charge more. Any competent garage can do. Must remove the upper head of the engine and an original Gasket  & seals may necessary.   However get more sure about the fault.

 

Have you noticed some exhaust smoke at idling each time (provide  gap of 5 minutes in between) when you start the engine ?

 

[vitz]

3 minutes ago, Rohnd said:

Agent may charge more. Any competent garage can do. Must remove the upper head of the engine and an original Gasket  & seals may necessary.   However get more sure about the fault.

 

Have you noticed some exhaust smoke at idling each time (provide  gap of 5 minutes in between) when you start the engine ?

 

I"ll check that out

 

[The Stig]

13 hours ago, Jor-el said:

Yep engine oil is changed every 6 months regardless of the mileage  (or if it hits 5k km before 6 months)

I was in the opinion that synth oils are formulated to avoid sludge formation and have less chance of sludge formation compared to mineral oil   (atleast that's what oil manufacturers say.) 

Yes that's the idea

 

The problem I have is why op switch from synthetic to mineral oil. What is the recommended oil for gp1? 

[Jor-el]

1 hour ago, The Stig said:

Yes that's the idea

 

But our resident expert @Rumesh88 said if it's mineral oil there's no need to worry of sludge formation provided I change engine oil every 6 months... OP has changed his synth oil every 10k km and before 6 months time but it seems like he has a sludge problem innit? Maybe that's why he switched to mineral.

[matroska]

On 2/19/2017 at 10:48 AM, Rumesh88 said:

Are the plugs Iridium or regular? I cannot see an iridium tip in the pic. BTW how often do you inspect the plugs? Let alone the oil deposits but the plug itself is way over due for a replacement IMO.

Stafford recommends to change the plugs at least at 80,000 K/m - so i guess OP's  overdue on that 

[Rumesh88]

As for the sludge formation when it comes to synthetic vs mineral, the Sri Lankan experience does not represent that of global (I don't know why - may be the climate, air quality, attitudes etc). For some reason synthetics have earned a bad reputation here (hence a Sri Lankan experience) particularly for cars running short distances. I know this sounds counter intuitive but that's the way it is. This topic has been discussed many times over in various threads like 

However, if any of you change engine oil like I do at home and leave the used stuff in an open bucket for a weeks or so, you will notice that for some brands of oil a crust like substance is formed on the top surface. That is definitely a sign of lubricant breaking up. While I cannot go on experimenting with my car all the time I have avoided those oils that form a crust once disposed. I would be able to observe the same with 0W-20 synthetic on a GP5 daily runner in a couple of weeks but only after a run of 5000 kms. If I observe any sludge I will update the thread and switch to mineral at the next service.

 

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