Alfa Romeo

[terrabytetango]

Well yeah, Boxter notwithstanding, the 4C has the Exige to deal with as well, and will really have to show its colors when the unavoidable comparison occurs. They need to start make affordable RWD cars again, not just re-skinned Fiats.

[GTAm]

Well yeah, Boxter notwithstanding, the 4C has the Exige to deal with as well, and will really have to show its colors when the unavoidable comparison occurs. They need to start make affordable RWD cars again, not just re-skinned Fiats.

True. The 4C will be lot more usable than the Exige for sure. The Elise/Exige is now quite old and sales are down to a trickle. And there are many doubts about the long term survival of Lotus. The power to weight ratio of the 4C indicates that it will be a formidable machine in terms of performance and dynamics - on par with the class above 911 Carera rather than the Boxter.

There's the new Spider just announce which will be a "reskinned" (Alfa Engines/supension/Body) next gen Mazda MX5 rather than a Fiat, which suits me fine . The smaller cars (upto C segment) will no doubt be "based on" Fiats and the larget cars will be based on Chryslers/Jeeps. Not the ideal situation for this brand but the only logical one available.

There is some noise of a RWD 6C sedan and coupe based on the upcoming Barracuda, whose chasis is being developed in detroit by Italian engineers and 8C replacement. All good imo.

[The Don]

True. The 4C will be lot more usable than the Exige for sure. The Elise/Exige is now quite old and sales are down to a trickle. And there are many doubts about the long term survival of Lotus. The power to weight ratio of the 4C indicates that it will be a formidable machine in terms of performance and dynamics - on par with the class above 911 Carera rather than the Boxter.

There's the new Spider just announce which will be a "reskinned" (Alfa Engines/supension/Body) next gen Mazda MX5 rather than a Fiat, which suits me fine . The smaller cars (upto C segment) will no doubt be "based on" Fiats and the larget cars will be based on Chryslers/Jeeps. Not the ideal situation for this brand but the only logical one available.

There is some noise of a RWD 6C sedan and coupe based on the upcoming Barracuda, whose chasis is being developed in detroit by Italian engineers and 8C replacement. All good imo.

It is the shame that after over a decade of trying to shake their shoddy build quality reputation Alfa is still struggling in that department. I don't think Alfa can survive by simply appealing to Alfistis who themselves seem to be quite disheartened by certain things. I did some research on the 159 as to why it was unceremoniously discontinued and sales seem to have trickled down to unacceptable levels. I guess no surprise considering users having to change timing chains due to them being stretched triggering engine management lights, premature water pump failures and timing belt failures. Where they really seem to be a change of part supplier as you cannot fault their design and technology.

[GTAm]

Hi Don,

Not sure where you read this, but the timing chain stretch happend only on early cars. When it is indicated it was a matter of changing it with an improved one and that is that. This is a very minor fault compared to what many German brand have faced. Never heard of water pump faliure (which was sometimes present in the 156). Timing belts again was a 156 issue. In fact the 159/Brera/Spider range has been perhaps the most reliable and well built Alfas in a long long time. I am a member of the UK owners club and the 159/Brera/Spider forums are almost dead when it comes to technical problems and reliability issues. Whatever is there is very minor.

Why were sales slow?

The 156 was a great car and a very successful car by Alfas post war commercial standards. However what killed the reputation was the way Alfa (Fiat) handled the gremlins (especially the timing belt issues). Believe me German manufactures had and have much bigger reliabity problems. First generation VW TSi engine, Early Porsche Boxter engine and gearbox failures, Mercedes 7-G tronic gearboxes going bust etc etc. BUT and this is a big BUT, the way the Germans and the Italians handled this is where the difference is. When Alfa dealers used to call HQ, there was no unit to look into these. The technical persons who answered were vague at best and failed to offer any solution. In short poor management. This left their customer high and dry. Soon Alfa dealers earned the worst reputations naturally. By contrast when German brand have such problems the customer is treated to a 5 star service. Engines/gearboxes replaced promptly FOC, car velted and waxed and you get it with a full tank of fuel. The result is sky high reputation and image.

With this back ground the 159 was never going to succeed easily, however good it was. Added to this the Brera and Spider were too heavy to be sporty and this annoyed Alfisti. These three cars were developed with Fiat's then partner GM. In 2005 GM and Fiat fell out and Fiat took GM to court which resulted in GM having to pay Fiat $2bn before GM went bust. The fallout meant no further development on the 159 platform was possible without GM's consent, which of course they were not keen on giving. With no updates the only improvement Fiat could manage was the introduction of the 1750 Tbi engine. Too little too late. Then it became more cost effective to kill off the models than keep them alive.

With the Euro/Italy crisis getting worse, the relaunch will begin in the US not in Europe.

[The Don]

Hi Don,

Not sure where you read this, but the timing chain stretch happend only on early cars. When it is indicated it was a matter of changing it with an improved one and that is that. This is a very minor fault compared to what many German brand have faced. Never heard of water pump faliure (which was sometimes present in the 156). Timing belts again was a 156 issue. In fact the 159/Brera/Spider range has been perhaps the most reliable and well built Alfas in a long long time. I am a member of the UK owners club and the 159/Brera/Spider forums are almost dead when it comes to technical problems and reliability issues. Whatever is there is very minor.

Why were sales slow?

The 156 was a great car and a very successful car by Alfas post war commercial standards. However what killed the reputation was the way Alfa (Fiat) handled the gremlins (especially the timing belt issues). Believe me German manufactures had and have much bigger reliabity problems. First generation VW TSi engine, Early Porsche Boxter engine and gearbox failures, Mercedes 7-G tronic gearboxes going bust etc etc. BUT and this is a big BUT, the way the Germans and the Italians handled this is where the difference is. When Alfa dealers used to call HQ, there was no unit to look into these. The technical persons who answered were vague at best and failed to offer any solution. In short poor management. This left their customer high and dry. Soon Alfa dealers earned the worst reputations naturally. By contrast when German brand have such problems the customer is treated to a 5 star service. Engines/gearboxes replaced promptly FOC, car velted and waxed and you get it with a full tank of fuel. The result is sky high reputation and image.

With this back ground the 159 was never going to succeed easily, however good it was. Added to this the Brera and Spider were too heavy to be sporty and this annoyed Alfisti. These three cars were developed with Fiat's then partner GM. In 2005 GM and Fiat fell out and Fiat took GM to court which resulted in GM having to pay Fiat $2bn before GM went bust. The fallout meant no further development on the 159 platform was possible without GM's consent, which of course they were not keen on giving. With no updates the only improvement Fiat could manage was the introduction of the 1750 Tbi engine. Too little too late. Then it became more cost effective to kill off the models than keep them alive.

With the Euro/Italy crisis getting worse, the relaunch will begin in the US not in Europe.

Hi GTAm, I spend some time in the Alfa forums (I think I looked at a few like Alfaowner.com) and that was my source of information. There was some debate as to whether the JTD engines were a GM design or a Fiat design but GM certainly uses them. The issue with the water pumps related to the bearings which failed prematurely but in the process affects the timing belt in the process. I am surprised and you have not heard of these problems.

Alfa workshop lists the problem and the fixes

http://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/alfa_159_timing%20chain_replacement_replacement.shtml

And in this link note how the original 90,000 mile timing belt change interval has been bought forward to 60,000 miles to deal with the issues around water pump, timing belts in the diesels.

http://www.autolusso.co.uk/servicing/159-servicing.html

I am sure you can Google as well as I could so I won't labour the point any further. The reason why I originally did this research as I was thinking about buying one and was trying to figure out the best version for my driving pattern. I do less than 4000 miles a year and the car lies idle for most of the week as I take public transport to work. I was very tempted by the 2.4 JTD. I have not dismissed the idea but I wanted to buy one knowing what to look out for.

And I'm not trying to diss the brand, I love Alfa Romeo, but I don't think you can argue the build quality issues prevail.

The Germans have problems too particularly VW if JD Power ratings are anything to go by, but Mercedes and BMW still fare pretty well. And there is no point saying that others have problem too because you should try to become better than the competition.

[GTAm]

Ah I see you are refering to the diesels regarding water pump and timing belts. Sorry I was talking of and have been focussing only on the petrol engines. In fact there is only one diesel Alfa in the whole country!

Yes the timing chain issue in the petrol JTS 159 is a straight forward fix and not present after 2008 when there was a very minor "facelift". At least this is according to AROC-UK owners where there is no serious reliability topic discussed since the cars were launched. I just re-checked to make sure.

The JTS (petrol) blocks are GM sourced and the head is Alfa/FPT. Some of the JTDs have GM involvement too. But I'm not sure to what extent.

I assure you build quality issues are on par if not better than most brands out there. Many including myself have learned to not read too much into JD power surveys. See here - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=860365&d=11111.43958&nmt=

As you can see Alfa was placed 2nd in 2009 in Germany ahead of BMW, Audi and Toyota and on par with Merc. Only Daihatsu was ahead.

In 2011 in UK JD Power survey Alfa was in a joint 10th place with VW and Toyota.

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/buying-and-selling/2011-05/alfa-jd-power/

I'm not saying Alfas are the most relaible car in the world or that German cars are the most unreliable. I'm just saying German companies are well managed and have a lot better PR and Alfa probably has had the worst PR ever until now .

Gee 4000 miles a year!! What you need is a petrol.

[The Don]

Yes GTAm that is exactly what I need, but in the UK in particular its a lot easier to source a diesel rather than a petrol because of user preference. The most common model is the 1.9 JTDm. Plus the 2.4JTDm is quite a good compromise between economy and performance though with my usage its probably not going to fare that well. This is the case with most modern diesels unfortunately. The JTSs are not so common and the ones I found were unrealistically priced.

[GTAm]

Hi Don, have you been thinking of getting one on a special permit? Or through the usual "under two year" catagory? If it's under two years JTS is redundent as it would be the superior 1750TBi engine that's available. More bhp and a lot more torque. There are plenty available in the UK, although there are a lot more diesels.

[Supra_Natural]

Hi Don, have you been thinking of getting one on a special permit? Or through the usual "under two year" catagory? If it's under two years JTS is redundent as it would be the superior 1750TBi engine that's available. More bhp and a lot more torque. There are plenty available in the UK, although there are a lot more diesels.

Don lives in the UK machan.

[The Don]

Hi Don, have you been thinking of getting one on a special permit? Or through the usual "under two year" catagory? If it's under two years JTS is redundent as it would be the superior 1750TBi engine that's available. More bhp and a lot more torque. There are plenty available in the UK, although there are a lot more diesels.

Yeah GTAm sadly I do currently live in the UK, and in SL I probably wont be able to afford one without a permit (which I'll never get as I don't work for the government or am a politician) The depreciation levels have also been quite reasonable. Mercedes Benz as expected has the slowest rate of depreciation but after that the 159 the series and A4 has all been at the same levels with the Audi actually seem to perform a little stronger. Ironically the new Lexus IS is the best value for money proposition in class have lost a bit more value.

[GTAm]

Ah I see. Why "sadly"? You have a LOT more choice than all of us

[GTAm]

Leaked photos of the Launche Edition 4C -

http://www.quattroruote.it/ginevra2013/immaginebig_articolo.cfm?codiceimg=497844&codedicola=459443&codice=407370&codarticolo=407370&tornaa=/speciale/ginevra2013/salone-di-ginevra-tutte-le-novita-nel-nostro-speciale-online-video

[GTAm]

Some stats that have been released. Power to weight - 4kg per BHP. That's close to Porsche 911 S territory and matches the Corvette Z06!

0-100km/h said to be around 4.5secs. Top speed limited to 155mph.

Weight 950kgs power 240bhp.

Made from - Carbon fibre and Aluminium.

[trinity]

Leaked photos of the Launche Edition 4C -

http://www.quattroruote.it/ginevra2013/immaginebig_articolo.cfm?codiceimg=497844&codedicola=459443&codice=407370&codarticolo=407370&tornaa=/speciale/ginevra2013/salone-di-ginevra-tutte-le-novita-nel-nostro-speciale-online-video

Looks like a Lotus ne.....

[The Don]

Ah I see. Why "sadly"? You have a LOT more choice than all of us

But owning a car is a lot more complicated than Sri Lanka GTAm. For example in London most houses are terraces and have no drive way, as such your car is at the mercy of the elements and frequently suffer knocks etc. Insurance is also prohibitively expensive even third party particularly for the sportier cars.

And maintaining them is very expensive too, and often costs more than the car itself. The usual labour rate is around the £40 an hour mark, for a mechanic, so you can imagine why restores of the type you do is not economically viable.

So owning a car is the easy bit. They are relatively cheap, but living with one when you live in a major city, not so straight forward...

[GTAm]

Rave reviews for the 4C

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufacturers/alfa-romeo/10334710/Alfa-Romeo-4C-review.html

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/alfa-romeo/4c/first-drives/alfa-romeo-4c-first-drive-review

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=47&i=28496

[GTAm]

Looks like the Hamster wants to buy one.

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/richard-hammond-on-the-alfa-romeo-4c-2013-11-28

[VVTi]

If anyone of you ladies happens to see one of these for sale in some body or spare shops anywhere in LK, gimme a holler please. Need the triangular bit. Its off a Alfa 155.

thanks