Primer P11/civic Vi/virs

[isurujosh]

Hi Everyone,

I am in the market to buy an affordable day-to-day family car that has decent performance. Some of my choices include Primera P11, Civic Vi and ViRS. I wanted to find-out which car has best acceleration of the three and following are the data that I accumulated in my attempt.

Car(hyper link points to source of information)/Ps Per Ton(Power)/N*M Per Ton(Torque)

Civic Vi MT/:124/133

Primera P11 2.0 MT/:122/155

Civic Vi-RS MT/:118/127

Following are my questions.

1) According to my source Vi should have better acceleration than Vi-RS, because Vi-RS is heavier but shares the same engine. Is that the case or is my source incorrect?

2) P11 seems to have an inferior power-to-weight ratio than Vi but it has more torque, will the extra torque help P11 accelerate better?

3) The data indicates that there is hardly anything to choose in terms to acceleration among the three, in that sense isn't it better that I opt for a Civic given better fuel economy and cheaper maintenance?

Note: I based my comparision solely on acceleration because I think that I will not push the car to it's handling limits to exploit any car's extra potential in handling.

[Devinda_Z]

its been quite a while hasn't it?!

hmmm i'm just curious to find out as well, is the Civic much cheaper to run than the P11?

[isurujosh]

its been quite a while hasn't it?!

hmmm i'm just curious to find out as well, is the Civic much cheaper to run than the P11?

yeah it's been a long while. i was occupied with marriage life and house building. now i have moved into the new house and car time again:).

on the topic, i have read in this forum it self that primera suspension system alone costed 80k to repair back in 2007. judging by normal infaltion that should set me back about 120,00o or so now. having used a honda my self i know honda is not that expensive to maintain. i may have spent maximum 20-40k an year on routine running reapirs and that's it. i am fully aware that primera suspension system delivers totally superior handling dynamics but fact remains it's costly to maintain as well.

on fuel i think honda(manual) should do 11-12km a liter in heavy traffic where as the primera (manual) should do 8-9km a liter at best in heavy traffic. that alone is about 5000-10,000 cost saving for me every month. with the prospect of fuel prices going even higher the fuel cost advantage should be even more pronounced.

[miniace]

Hey good to see you making a comeback after a long time!

On topic-Guess ViRs

MINIACE

[Pericles]

If its just acceleration times, stock 0-60 figures should be on the net if you search right?

[isurujosh]

If its just acceleration times, stock 0-60 figures should be on the net if you search right?

fetched the time for Primera which is 8.3 seconds from 0 to 60mph. wasn't easy to find figures for the two civics because civics in europe and USA are different from the vi and the virs. (most web sites in google search have info on euro and US versions). judging by my experience on the D15 i suppose civic should be close but the question is whether it is very close or even better. i think even 0.2 seconds difference is huge on 0 to 60mph times. that is why i wish to get to know this from people who might have first hand experience.

[isurujosh]

Hey good to see you making a comeback after a long time!

On topic-Guess ViRs

MINIACE

initally i too thought that ViRS should have faster acceleration than Vi but then i bumped into this site that mentioned that Vi has the same engine and power as the ViRS and then the site also indicated that Vi is 50kg lighter so i then i wondered whether Vi accelerates faster. but even if we set aside the difference between vi and ViRS do you reckon that ViRS actually accelerates faster than the Primera?

[isurujosh]

it seems like Vi seems to be the best bang for the buck as ViRS may be quite expensive. can someone kindly help me with the following questions.

1) what is the current market rate for a Vi?

2) is any VTEC SOHC Civic a Vi? (i suppose NO)

3) if the answer to question 2 is NO then how can i pin point a Vi from rest of SOHC VTEC Civics?

[shanX]

it seems like Vi seems to be the best bang for the buck as ViRS may be quite expensive. can someone kindly help me with the following questions.

1) what is the current market rate for a Vi?

2) is any VTEC SOHC Civic a Vi? (i suppose NO)

3) if the answer to question 2 is NO then how can i pin point a Vi from rest of SOHC VTEC Civics?

Yeah, Vi-RS has bloated price tag imo, while Vi is almost the same as the Vi-RS except it's newer,has added bling (and maybe has a slight difference on suspension components)

1) 1.45mln upwards? No idea

2) 96-98 EK3 Vtecs are Vi (or VTi?), unlessed it's a swap.

3) Check the VIN tag on the car, it might have EK3 Vi mentioned on it. And these cars came with D15B 3rd stage Vtec, which has two Vtec solenoids.

p.s: I haven't driven a Vi-RS, so don''t count on me

Edited January 29, 2010 by shanX

[isurujosh]

Yeah, Vi-RS has bloated price tag imo, while Vi is almost the same as the Vi-RS except it's newer,has added bling (and maybe has a slight difference on suspension components)

1) 1.45mln upwards? No idea

2) 96-98 EK3 Vtecs are Vi (or VTi?), unlessed it's a swap.

3) Check the VIN tag on the car, it might have EK3 Vi mentioned on it. And these cars came with D15B 3rd stage Vtec, which has two Vtec solenoids.

p.s: I haven't driven a Vi-RS, so don''t count on me

tnx this information was useful.

[KI4120]

it seems like Vi seems to be the best bang for the buck as ViRS may be quite expensive. can someone kindly help me with the following questions.

1) what is the current market rate for a Vi?

2) is any VTEC SOHC Civic a Vi? (i suppose NO)

3) if the answer to question 2 is NO then how can i pin point a Vi from rest of SOHC VTEC Civics?

Hi Bro,

1. Current Market for Vi-RS is starting from 1.7 to 2.0 mio depending on the condition.

Vi starting from 1.5 to 1.7 mio depending on the YOM and condition. Recently a very good friend of mine bought a Vi with GO plates..a 1999 model with superb condition for 1.7 mio and the color was Magnesium Silver and with Multimatic and Alloys...and he really had to plead for the car as there was too many people to buy da same for 1.7 mio and thats the current situation.

2. Cvic Vi RS and Vi both share D15B engine which comes with a single over head cam (SOHC) 3 stage vtec. But Vi RS has a special ECU which is it's been re-mapped to Rallying and Streets (thats wot RS means- but honda never Rallys..it only good on Streets.. ) Vi RS has this improved ECU where a Vi has a stock JDM ECU. also Vi RS has racing suspension improvements such as Stab bars for front and rear and it also came with all FOUR Disk brakes and 15 inch Stock Alloy Rims , Bucket Seats and also with some cosmetic upgrades like bumper lips, smoked head lights, Sports Grill, Spoilers

Remeber all the Vi Civics are SOHCs not DOHC. if a Honda VTEC engine is a DOHC engine..its @ the competition end..not for the Domestic use. because Honda first develop the VTEC for extra power in a DOHC..in 1989 for a 450 VFRbike..and then later moved to Cars..then for SOHCs Vtec was developed to produced more power over a SOHC engine this is the 1st stage model..then Honda found this vario cam technology and moved in to VTEC-E which works as a econo cam profiles...this the 2 stage model and later honda mecs decided to add all these 2 stages which VTEC power mode and VTEC-E mode in all in one ..and then the VTEC 3 stage came..in a SOHC engine. its da D15B engine...it produces variable cam profiles according to throttle / Gas positions. So upto VTEC to i-VTEC all the engines comes with SOHCs...

[SpEeD FrEak]

Hi Bro,

1. Current Market for Vi-RS is starting from 1.7 to 2.0 mio depending on the condition.

Vi starting from 1.5 to 1.7 mio depending on the YOM and condition. Recently a very good friend of mine bought a Vi with GO plates..a 1999 model with superb condition for 1.7 mio and the color was Magnesium Silver and with Multimatic and Alloys...and he really had to plead for the car as there was too many people to buy da same for 1.7 mio and thats the current situation.

2. Cvic Vi RS and Vi both share D15B engine which comes with a single over head cam (SOHC) 3 stage vtec. But Vi RS has a special ECU which is it's been re-mapped to Rallying and Streets (thats wot RS means- but honda never Rallys..it only good on Streets.. ) Vi RS has this improved ECU where a Vi has a stock JDM ECU. also Vi RS has racing suspension improvements such as Stab bars for front and rear and it also came with all FOUR Disk brakes and 15 inch Stock Alloy Rims , Bucket Seats and also with some cosmetic upgrades like bumper lips, smoked head lights, Sports Grill, Spoilers

Remeber all the Vi Civics are SOHCs not DOHC. if a Honda VTEC engine is a DOHC engine..its @ the competition end..not for the Domestic use. because Honda first develop the VTEC for extra power in a DOHC..in 1989 for a 450 VFRbike..and then later moved to Cars..then for SOHCs Vtec was developed to produced more power over a SOHC engine this is the 1st stage model..then Honda found this vario cam technology and moved in to VTEC-E which works as a econo cam profiles...this the 2 stage model and later honda mecs decided to add all these 2 stages which VTEC power mode and VTEC-E mode in all in one ..and then the VTEC 3 stage came..in a SOHC engine. its da D15B engine...it produces variable cam profiles according to throttle / Gas positions. So upto VTEC to i-VTEC all the engines comes with SOHCs...

And also the some ViRS's came with navigation,Digital Climate control and I feel that it was lower than the Vi

[isurujosh]

KI4120, Thank you so much sir for very ellaborate information. It's amazing how a SOHC n.a. engine produces that much of specific output. It is also sad how Honda seems to have lost touch with it's core values since of late.

On the subject, do you reckon, ViRS would be faster yet in a straight line inspite of it's declared inferior power-to-weight ratio than a Vi? I mean would the revised mapping make the ViRS stay in the power band than the normal mapping? After all good Honda's are not about max power. It's about power delivery acoross the range.

[MrCat]

yeah it's been a long while. i was occupied with marriage life and house building. now i have moved into the new house and car time again:).

Ahaaaa.... Interesting...!!!

Too bad can’t provide you with any insight into the topic though, me totally out dated with info on “ViRs”`s and “P11”`s

[KI4120]

KI4120, Thank you so much sir for very ellaborate information. It's amazing how a SOHC n.a. engine produces that much of specific output. It is also sad how Honda seems to have lost touch with it's core values since of late.

On the subject, do you reckon, ViRS would be faster yet in a straight line inspite of it's declared inferior power-to-weight ratio than a Vi? I mean would the revised mapping make the ViRS stay in the power band than the normal mapping? After all good Honda's are not about max power. It's about power delivery acoross the range.

UR Welcome bro..and machan...wot u mean Honda has lost it's core values...speaking of which...Nowadays Honda seems to strict to their social responsibilities and moving in to green...more efficient vehicles..as a result they have remade the CRX as a CRZ with a hybrid engine...in this they have convert the soo called speed hawk in to a flying cool pigeon.. lol also with the FCX Insight / Clarity they have moved in to new hybrids proving that they have exceeded the Toyota by making good hybrid vehicles.

Speaking of Vi and ViRS both shares the same Drivetrain and Powertrain systems. As a result there wont be a significant weight difference in both models. ViRS would be some 20 to 50 Kg higher bcz it has 15"alloys, Stab Bars and some bucket seat (seats are not low weight materials like on Recaro or Sparco or Bride) ..but i really dont think it will have a issue with Power to Weight factor..bcz in one way..it's ECU is mapped to a higher curve where as the Vi is JDM and also RS mapping is done to negotiate with ABS / EBD and to control good torques in every way...these controls are sharper and improved when compared to a JDM Vi. If u could read some Shop manuals regarding Civic 6th Gen models..u will get a clear picture dude...

and one thing machan... if ur living in Sri Lanka..pls dont care much about these Power to Weight Figures, BHPs. Because none of these can come in handy when we are on roads..also we hardly can enjoy all these fetures. Only thing we should care about being Lankans and SL Road Users is to find a good MPG car with reliable and low maintenance vehicle. because where can we find a straight line in SL where we really can strech our wings... on a day to day ride in colombo or any city...we hardly can find a place to burn some rubber and gasoline..he..hee...and the biggest issue is traffic. Go and Stop ..we can never enjoy a ride...and due to road conditions and extreme environmental conditions our vehicles can get wear off soo rapidly...

Considering all these... Civic is one of the best options we can find to fit our pockets and expectations. Specially a Vi or Vi RS..because both delivers a very good combine MPG or Km/L figure such as guaranteed 9 Km/L or Higher .... flat out in Urban is max 12 Km/L from a EK3 (Manual / Vtec) and in extra urban as much as 16 Km/L flat out (Depending of very gentle driving). And also Honda Suspension come with McPherson struts and double wish borne where it truly doing it task very well in SL roads giving independent suspension feeling thus providing good handling. Speaking about durability Honda Comes with Showa Springs and Shock Absoabers and also steering rack systems where it extremely reliable and part to part replacement is also very affordable.

Our Local Dealer is Staf..d Motros is also offers very reasonable Mot Charges (Labour Costs and Repair Costs...Genuine Spare Part Prices) when compared to other dealers for Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Kia, Hyundai.

So Considering these factors..i would recon u to buy a 6th Gen Civic or even a higher gen like 7th Gen model or even a lower one without any fear... (i know u've been using a Honda City so u also must have experienced the same..)

Whether its a Vi or ViRS it really doesnt matter..both are good cars and fun to drive, Practical and very good on ur Wallet...and after all when compared to it's rivals such as Carina, Corona , Sunny, Bluebird ...it has more options and functionalities.

Bcz a 1995 Civic Vi also came with VTEC, ABS and in some with Sat Nav where as the Toyota Rivals such as Carina,Corona came with DOHC 16V regular efi engines...and even a 1999 - 2000 Civic Vi or RS came with 3 stage VTEC where the toyota implemented the VVTi ONLY in there 1999 high end cars such as MK2 and Chaser or Lexus Altezza and on specially for it's YAMAHA BEAMS 2000/2500/3000 engines...after 2001 only toyota fixed VVTi technology for their compact cars like Corolla, Carina, Corona, Altis being the rivals or competitors for Honda Civics. Mind U.. Honda did this since 1995 and found the first VTEC system in 1989..where toyota convert the same technology as VVTi and Nissan as VVL and Mitsubishi as MIVEC with TRICS in late 90s and in early 2000....

Hope u had a clear picture and some good facts...

[isurujosh]

Ahaaaa.... Interesting...!!!

Too bad can’t provide you with any insight into the topic though, me totally out dated with info on “ViRs”`s and “P11”`s

hello mr cat nice seeing you at least in AL :lol

[isurujosh]

UR Welcome bro..and machan...wot u mean Honda has lost it's core values...speaking of which...Nowadays Honda seems to strict to their social responsibilities and moving in to green...more efficient vehicles..as a result they have remade the CRX as a CRZ with a hybrid engine...in this they have convert the soo called speed hawk in to a flying cool pigeon..

you ask from me what i mean and you have given the answers too. following are enough and more evidence.

1) pulling out of F1 even whilst still being the ONLY major bread and butter car maker to be making a profit during the great recession.

2) scrapping new NSX even when the test mules proved faster than mighty GTR.

3) bringing the notoriously slow and ridiculous CRZ to disgrace the CRX name.

4) deciding to drop V8 prospects for the acura brand in US.

5) introduction of HEAVY SH-AWD which proved useless. (when was honda known for introducing lot of weight with thier innovations?)

6) building a reputation for having the worst F1 engine since of late.

the list goes on machan. as much as i am tempted to buy a civic i am put off by their current attitude towards car making. i think the last breed of great hondas are dieing a slow death and they are being replaced with boring machines. please read my article here about Honda that i wrote in a blog.

[isurujosh]

.. lol also with the FCX Insight / Clarity they have moved in to new hybrids proving that they have exceeded the Toyota by making good hybrid vehicles.

i can't agree with you on that machan. insight is a failure and the new generation Toyota Prius is a home run. refer real sales figures and inital sales expectations for more information.

FCX Clarity despite James May's emotional presentation is bit of an overkill for the current market conditions. it's place in the automotive history is yet to be decided.

[KI4120]

i can't agree with you on that machan. insight is a failure and the new generation Toyota Prius is a home run. refer real sales figures and inital sales expectations for more information.

FCX Clarity despite James May's emotional presentation is bit of an overkill for the current market conditions. it's place in the automotive history is yet to be decided.

FCX comes as a good hybrid machan bcz Honda have think and act a way far better than Toyota bcz they have implement the Clarity to be run on Liquid Compressed Hydrogen, where as Toyota Rivals are more keen on Electric motors with L-Ion bats. Even James also mentioned the same...bcz Hydrogen is something which will never ran out from our Planet and its widely can be found on even from other Wastes from chemical factories etc...so in this context Honda has really thought and made it real a one step further in making a good and efficient and practical Hybrid vehicles. ( Same as the Honda IMA technology...)

Yep i also agree with u that Honda now tend to concentrate too much on Greener and Boring kinds of cars killing all those superb petrol heads...but machan..honda it self is being a First Mover ...since from their history...so in this hybrid technologies honda seems to grab the first mover's advantage and there by making competitive dominance in the market. Like they first implemented the VTEC and Multimatic to the world and making thier brand stand tall...dont u agree with me ?

[Supra_Natural]

FCX comes as a good hybrid machan bcz Honda have think and act a way far better than Toyota bcz they have implement the Clarity to be run on Liquid Compressed Hydrogen, where as Toyota Rivals are more keen on Electric motors with L-Ion bats. Even James also mentioned the same...bcz Hydrogen is something which will never ran out from our Planet and its widely can be found on even from other Wastes from chemical factories etc...so in this context Honda has really thought and made it real a one step further in making a good and efficient and practical Hybrid vehicles. ( Same as the Honda IMA technology...)

Yep i also agree with u that Honda now tend to concentrate too much on Greener and Boring kinds of cars killing all those superb petrol heads...but machan..honda it self is being a First Mover ...since from their history...so in this hybrid technologies honda seems to grab the first mover's advantage and there by making competitive dominance in the market. Like they first implemented the VTEC and Multimatic to the world and making thier brand stand tall...dont u agree with me ?

So how much is Honda paying you?

J/k

[isurujosh]

i have never owned a primera P11 2L but i have used a slightly souped up SOHC VTEC. today i test drove a P11 2L and according to my experience SOHC VTEC is faster and more exciting in terms of engine. but of course i am not most qualified to give a conclusive verdict since i have not put up with a P11 but merely test drove one. it is just my opinion.

[isurujosh]

...dont u agree with me ?

yes honda was quite good in the past but i don't agree that they are at the forefront today. for starters you have to concede that new prius beats the insight hand down. 2nd point is you have to understand that top gear and james may are just an entertainment show. i think quite a lot of people now agree with me on that. there is lot more to the hydrogen story than what james may says. unfortunately i have no time to ellaborate on the other side of the hydrogen story but the best example as to why hydrogen is not so viable is reflected in the fact that there is no major current initiative by any goverment or any other car maker to promote hydrogen. after all it is not only honda who has been working on hydrogen with success. if you google you find many other examples too.

i think we can agree to disagree

[shanX]

as much as i am tempted to buy a civic i am put off by their current attitude towards car making. i think the last breed of great hondas are dieing a slow death and they are being replaced with boring machines. please read my article here about Honda that i wrote in a blog.

So how much is this blog or Honda paying you? serious question

[KI4120]

So how much is Honda paying you?

J/k

Frankly machan..for last 11 years honda has paid me alot...in terms of Durability , Reliability , Drivability , Compatibility (to our SL road use) and also on fuel economy and engine efficiency together with Robustness of drivetrain and powertrain...and most of it Fun and Driving Pleasure...

Not only honda machan...i have experienced the same through Toyota...

(these experiences are best fit for our homeland - Sri Lanka..lol...)

[KI4120]

yes honda was quite good in the past but i don't agree that they are at the forefront today. for starters you have to concede that new prius beats the insight hand down. 2nd point is you have to understand that top gear and james may are just an entertainment show. i think quite a lot of people now agree with me on that. there is lot more to the hydrogen story than what james may says. unfortunately i have no time to ellaborate on the other side of the hydrogen story but the best example as to why hydrogen is not so viable is reflected in the fact that there is no major current initiative by any goverment or any other car maker to promote hydrogen. after all it is not only honda who has been working on hydrogen with success. if you google you find many other examples too.

i think we can agree to disagree

Ow yeah machan..i havent forgotten that Top Gear guys are some like blowing thier EU or GB trumpet...if toyota or honda was origin from GB or EU communion for Top Gear guys..it could have been the best in the rest of the world...anyways... Honda and Toyota is like side to side and hand in hand bros which dominate and always come up with good rides... irrespective of vehicle qualities everything changes when it comes to SL ... SL is the only country which a second hand vehicle price is sky rocketing and advance FUEL SYSTEMs get failed..like what happened with GDI cars and jeeps from MMC... LMAO....