Oil Sludge

[Naz]

Hi, I drive a Toyota Vios and have missed my usual service by 3000Km's... car has done arnd 85K's. A couple of time, when i slowed at an intersection the engine stalled. No warning lights or indicators came on. And, the pulling power of the car also relatvely was low. And the oil levels also dipped. When I took it Toyota this morning for a service, the guys said that the sludge build up was bad, and that the ONLY solution is to clean up the engine, which will take 4 days and cost approx. 120k. They said that it'l have to be sunk in a thinner bath and blahdy blah. When I asked if there is a short cut, the guy said that I can get the engine flushed elsewhere, but then that can only worsen the situation. Please guys, need some advise... I am obviously thinking of flushing the engine..

[jdnet]

  On 6/8/2011 at 5:21 AM, Naz said:

Hi, I drive a Toyota Vios and have missed my usual service by 3000Km's... car has done arnd 85K's. A couple of time, when i slowed at an intersection the engine stalled. No warning lights or indicators came on. And, the pulling power of the car also relatvely was low. And the oil levels also dipped. When I took it Toyota this morning for a service, the guys said that the sludge build up was bad, and that the ONLY solution is to clean up the engine, which will take 4 days and cost approx. 120k. They said that it'l have to be sunk in a thinner bath and blahdy blah. When I asked if there is a short cut, the guy said that I can get the engine flushed elsewhere, but then that can only worsen the situation. Please guys, need some advise... I am obviously thinking of flushing the engine..

I really doubt that an extra 3000 kilometers can sludge up an engine that bad. You might have had a problem well before that. I believe for the price toyota qoutes they are probably going to disassemble the engine and clean it up. What you could do is find a decent garage and get the same thing done. May even be cheaper. Also since the engine is going to be disassembled, it would be a wise thing to get anything else you want fixed, done at this time too eg, comperssion problems, getting the block rebored etc. Basically it's going to be a rebuild of the engine. You may also want to note that, had there been a sludge problem, components within the engine may have been damaged so it would be wise to inspect everything.

[luckey007]

I also doubt that thing. Why don't you try with a normal oil change.

PS:Sometimes your engine may need a overhaul.Who knows how much it has run even-though clock says 85.

[Naz]

Yeah makes sense, thanks guys. Prolly the engine needs a cleaning, but then Ive been servicing the thing at Toyota regularly before, and I am surprised that this didnt show up, at least show symptoms. Anyway, would you guys recommend a flushing to see if there is an improvement?

[RWD]

well some of the toyota engines are prone to oil sludge issues. just type toyota engine sludge and you get a surprising amount of hits. you have to be pretty anal when it comes to servicing these engines on time.

[Naz]

Thanks RWD, Ive been reading up on the subject and have realized that sludge related issues are common, only if I knew before. Also, I have read all the warnings against an engine flush unless it is an absolute necessity. However, is there a sequence of actions which I should follow given the situation? What should I try doing? If dismembering the engine is the right thing to do, where else other than Toyota? Is it normally done in any garage? Given the commonality of sludge related issues, surprisingly, I wasnt able to find a single after solution on the internet, which makes me fear for the wrost!

[RWD]

sorry mate, no expert at this. the only advise i can give you is there are better places than the agents to do this, and they'll be cheaper too. suggest you try a*toforce. their work is good.

.

[neranjan4788]

  On 6/8/2011 at 5:21 AM, Naz said:

Hi, I drive a Toyota Vios and have missed my usual service by 3000Km's... car has done arnd 85K's. A couple of time, when i slowed at an intersection the engine stalled. No warning lights or indicators came on. And, the pulling power of the car also relatvely was low. And the oil levels also dipped. When I took it Toyota this morning for a service, the guys said that the sludge build up was bad, and that the ONLY solution is to clean up the engine, which will take 4 days and cost approx. 120k. They said that it'l have to be sunk in a thinner bath and blahdy blah. When I asked if there is a short cut, the guy said that I can get the engine flushed elsewhere, but then that can only worsen the situation. Please guys, need some advise... I am obviously thinking of flushing the engine..

same problem with toyota yaris and belta which came for the government permit brand new.

[toosea]

Is this a diesel engine problem?

[The Don]

  On 6/8/2011 at 7:26 AM, Naz said:

Thanks RWD, Ive been reading up on the subject and have realized that sludge related issues are common, only if I knew before. Also, I have read all the warnings against an engine flush unless it is an absolute necessity. However, is there a sequence of actions which I should follow given the situation? What should I try doing? If dismembering the engine is the right thing to do, where else other than Toyota? Is it normally done in any garage? Given the commonality of sludge related issues, surprisingly, I wasnt able to find a single after solution on the internet, which makes me fear for the wrost!

Well I think the first option would be to try Abro engine flush and see if it makes a difference. You will have to change your oil and filter at the same time. But this should not cost you too much and you can see if it makes a difference. If it doesn't work, I guess the engine will have to be dismantled, cleaned and re assembled. Like Jdnet suggested, I would actually look at doing a bit of a rebuild of your engine at the same time and replacing things like the piston rings (if they are worn), bearings oil seals etc. Use your judgement as if the engine is fairly new many of the above may not be necessary, but the fact sludge is suspected probably means it's done a few miles.

Sludge develops due to the chemical break down of oil, and some vehicles are more prone to this than others due to higher operating temperatures. Some engine oils might also be more suitable than others. Would somebody care to make some recommendations?

[nexus]

  On 6/8/2011 at 9:36 AM, toosea said:

Is this a diesel engine problem?

afaik the op talk about petrol engine not about a diesel engine

Edited June 8, 2011 by nexus

[Dinuk]

What is the Name of the engine oil you use.... Most important is the usable milage of the oil. If it is 5000km or more I don't think it is necessary to dismantle the engine unless you have used the oil more than 6 months and didn't run the car continuously for more than a month.

[virensti]

  On 6/9/2011 at 4:20 PM, Dinuk said:

What is the Name of the engine oil you use.... Most important is the usable milage of the oil. If it is 5000km or more I don't think it is necessary to dismantle the engine unless you have used the oil more than 6 months and didn't run the car continuously for more than a month.

No mate, I think he's already mentioned that the sludge has already built up, sludge built up means the only way your gonna get your engine back to proper original condition is by dismantling it and getting it properly cleaned...

[Shehan_WCC]

Had the oil sludge up a bit in my mums vios .It was running on synthetic ,but we changed it before it got too messy and it started to run smooth again .

[Mani]

Don't flush the engine before you find out if your engine does have a sludge problem and how bad.

Just remove your valve cover, which is fairly easy to do, and look at your cam area for sludge build up. If there's a heavy tar like build up then you don't want to flush the engine. All it's going to do is loosen up all that junk and clog up your oil passages making a bad situation worst. If there is no sludge, then your problem is somewhere else.

[Ripper]

  On 6/9/2011 at 7:08 PM, Mani said:

Don't flush the engine before you find out if your engine does have a sludge problem and how bad.

Just remove your valve cover, which is fairly easy to do, and look at your cam area for sludge build up. If there's a heavy tar like build up then you don't want to flush the engine. All it's going to do is loosen up all that junk and clog up your oil passages making a bad situation worst. If there is no sludge, then your problem is somewhere else.

1+

i really doubt it's the extra 3k of running that made this happen.

and i can tell you from first hand experience...toyota mechanics sometimes talk utter rubbish. even some of their senior guys are not that good.

I would do what Mani suggests and see where that takes you.

My guess is this is not a direct result of sludge build up.

On a side note...even if you have to miss an oil change, what you should always ALWAYS do is to check the oil level.

never let that go down cos the damage that can do is a lot more than missing an oil change

[Dinuk]

  On 6/10/2011 at 4:06 AM, Ripper said:

1+

i really doubt it's the extra 3k of running that made this happen.

and i can tell you from first hand experience...toyota mechanics sometimes talk utter rubbish. even some of their senior guys are not that good.

Yes... I agree with you.....

[varunatech]

Extra 3K will not cause Sludge. But if you has sludge build up for a time the extra 3K may add an extra bit of it.

I have gone through analyzing sludge problems and helping others and myself.

My advice is show this to an expert (not to Toyota..........their first advice will be total engine cleaning). Few suggestion........D*MO, Mr Lala Alwatta, PIT Stop.

If light sludge you can easily get away with a BG Product.

BG 109 Compression Performance Restoration

BG 109 Compression Performance Restoration is a revolutionary formula with proven “ring-clean” technology. It is a quick and effective blend of cleaners that will soften, emulsify and dissolve those hard to remove fuel gums that clog rings and will usually do it in 15 minutes or less. Compression will increase with removal of these deposits. BG 109 also lowers tailpipe emissions, eliminates oil consumption associated with buildup and improves overall power and economy. Safe for use in diesel and rotary engines. Designed for use with the BG Performance Oil Changer Complete Kit, Part No. 9800-500.

Any more help, please write to me. I will help as I can. varunatech@gmail.com

[camry300]

  On 6/8/2011 at 6:49 AM, Naz said:

Yeah makes sense, thanks guys. Prolly the engine needs a cleaning, but then Ive been servicing the thing at Toyota regularly before, and I am surprised that this didnt show up, at least show symptoms. Anyway, would you guys recommend a flushing to see if there is an improvement?

You might be using synthetic fluids, so Try using normal mineral oil and change it with oil filter for 2 consecutive services at around 2500kms, instead of using a flush. or take it to automiraj a do a flush approx Rs 6500/;.

dont use flushes that come in small cans as it could worsen the situ. I have sludge in my engine too but no stalling problems. try the oil flush treatment and check the air flow sensor.

[varunatech]

  On 8/2/2011 at 3:58 AM, camry300 said:

You might be using synthetic fluids, so Try using normal mineral oil and change it with oil filter for 2 consecutive services at around 2500kms, instead of using a flush. or take it to automiraj a do a flush approx Rs 6500/;.

dont use flushes that come in small cans as it could worsen the situ. I have sludge in my engine too but no stalling problems. try the oil flush treatment and check the air flow sensor.

Automiraj uses BG Products too. Plus they use the flushing machine. A flush actually helps. Not advised to use just a can from Keels or a supermarket. But a professional product with the assistance of a professional can do a good flush.

Synthetic oils has a tendency to produce sludge in these tropical and high traffic countries. A good choice (kind of a must do ) is to switch to Mineral.

By the way, I have gone through this helping many people. As mentioned earlier I am more than happy to help. You can write to me in the orevious mentioned email.

[VVTi]

  On 8/1/2011 at 3:04 PM, varunatech said:

Extra 3K will not cause Sludge. But if you has sludge build up for a time the extra 3K may add an extra bit of it.

I have gone through analyzing sludge problems and helping others and myself.

My advice is show this to an expert (not to Toyota..........their first advice will be total engine cleaning). Few suggestion........D*MO, Mr Lala Alwatta, PIT Stop.

If light sludge you can easily get away with a BG Product.

BG 109 Compression Performance Restoration

BG 109 Compression Performance Restoration is a revolutionary formula with proven “ring-clean” technology. It is a quick and effective blend of cleaners that will soften, emulsify and dissolve those hard to remove fuel gums that clog rings and will usually do it in 15 minutes or less. Compression will increase with removal of these deposits. BG 109 also lowers tailpipe emissions, eliminates oil consumption associated with buildup and improves overall power and economy. Safe for use in diesel and rotary engines. Designed for use with the BG Performance Oil Changer Complete Kit, Part No. 9800-500.

Any more help, please write to me. I will help as I can. varunatech@gmail.com

Machang, I am not doubting at all your expertise on these matters, but bitter experience has taught me NEVER to pour in muck like sludge remover in to the crank case. Seen far too many cars that ended up worse after a so called miracle in a bottle treatment.

You sound like the guys from Pit Stop or Mag City who insists on pouring crap products they need to sell off the shelves in to they cars they service despite firm refusals. Once I had to tell them to lay off insisting or I leave the premises.

As long as you do your service properly and change oil and filer on time with the right quality filter and oil, you will be fine.

[varunatech]

  On 8/2/2011 at 5:01 AM, VVTi said:

Machang, I am not doubting at all your expertise on these matters, but bitter experience has taught me NEVER to pour in muck like sludge remover in to the crank case. Seen far too many cars that ended up worse after a so called miracle in a bottle treatment.

You sound like the guys from Pit Stop or Mag City who insists on pouring crap products they need to sell off the shelves in to they cars they service despite firm refusals. Once I had to tell them to lay off insisting or I leave the premises.

As long as you do your service properly and change oil and filer on time with the right quality filter and oil, you will be fine.

Machang, point taken.

My advice is not to pour without professional advice. If the sludge is very heavy in the crank case, the solvent will dilute the sludge and will create more trouble.

But if the sludge is at the early stages, a professional grade product applied by a professional can save you a lot. That is why, I want the guy having the trouble to contact me.

I can assess his situation and explain in detail. I am not recommending everyone to jump on the gun and pour stuff to the engine.

[RyanW]

Hey,

I'm really a noob for these things, but guys pls help me out...

I have a 121 (2002 Model) and it was doing less on fuel consumption (around 280-300Km for FULL Tank (42 Liters [City Limit])) so i took it to TTLanka.

This guy removed and watch my engine and said that this engine has formed sludge and it will take 4 days to clean it up, they will have to replace gasket kit and so on blah blah.. it will cost u minimum of Rs.120,000/-.. Damn!

So i took it to AM***j and asked them and they checked everything and there was NO such problem on the engine.. and they did an Engine Tune-up + Oil Change, Oil Filter Change and Air Filter Change (I use Toyota Oil BUT before i used shell 20-50W Which is NOT good at all)... Its been some couple of months and at the beginning it was doing well on Fuel Consumption like 360KM for Full tank [City Limit] but still i guess that is less.... and now its doing around 280-300KM again and so far i have gone 1600KM after the service at AM***j.. what would you'll suggest me to do?? I Pump 95Oct and i have changed my Petrol Filter and Spark Plugs before the AM***j service as well. and i recently used an 3m tank addictive with full tank and still no effect at all... Pls help...

[varunatech]

My friend, TT Lanka say the same damn thing to everyone. How can they be so sure without at least inspecting the rocker covers. But there can be sludge, specially if you have neglected the best practices and the situation of the sludge can be different. As I feel there is no reason to just jump on the gun.

The fuel issue can be or not related to sludge. Usually not.

How do you measure the fuel economy in the first place. Lot of Sri Lankans just tell figures that they think. At minimum do a full tank (make sure you stop the pump when the nozzle clicks) at a pump station. Zero one of the trip counters. Run for five days to make it average. Then fill it if posible from the same pump until the nozzle clicks. Then you have the Kms and the amount of Liters you consumed. In the mean time please note the Tyre pressure, traffic pattern and many others things impact too.

If you think the fuel economy is not there, after doing above and also as it can be an abused VVTi engine, take this to a professional place and shw them.

One thing you have not done so far in injector cleaning. The 3M in the tank may not have cleared everything.

Take the professional advice and then proceed, one step at a time.

Even if there is sludge at mild stage, a BG109 or BG105 cleaning and few short oil changes will help. If sludge is very aggressive then you will have to clean the engine, but that is a long shot.

Do not worry, go step by step......god luck and let us know what you found.

[kelum_wj]

A tune up includes Throttle body cleaning and Injector cleaning isn't it?

[RyanW]

  On 8/13/2011 at 12:17 PM, varunatech said:

My friend, TT Lanka say the same damn thing to everyone. How can they be so sure without at least inspecting the rocker covers. But there can be sludge, specially if you have neglected the best practices and the situation of the sludge can be different. As I feel there is no reason to just jump on the gun.

The fuel issue can be or not related to sludge. Usually not.

How do you measure the fuel economy in the first place. Lot of Sri Lankans just tell figures that they think. At minimum do a full tank (make sure you stop the pump when the nozzle clicks) at a pump station. Zero one of the trip counters. Run for five days to make it average. Then fill it if posible from the same pump until the nozzle clicks. Then you have the Kms and the amount of Liters you consumed. In the mean time please note the Tyre pressure, traffic pattern and many others things impact too.

If you think the fuel economy is not there, after doing above and also as it can be an abused VVTi engine, take this to a professional place and shw them.

One thing you have not done so far in injector cleaning. The 3M in the tank may not have cleared everything.

Take the professional advice and then proceed, one step at a time.

Even if there is sludge at mild stage, a BG109 or BG105 cleaning and few short oil changes will help. If sludge is very aggressive then you will have to clean the engine, but that is a long shot.

Do not worry, go step by step......god luck and let us know what you found.

Thanks varunatech for your reply, but i did a Full tank and fuel check and i came to find that it does around7-8 in city limits.. But it really does very good in outstation... it did 260Km (where i traveled Kurunegala) for a quarter (1/4) of the tank..

And in AM they did a good tune-up which they cleaned lot of carbon, and finally it started come out water drops... and they said now its good...

And for the record, the engine was very smooth and all the gears shift quickly, but now the engine starting to go hard when accelerating, doesn't shift quickly.. the oil is also turned different colour... (after the service i have traveled 1600Km so far, do u suggest to make another oil change?? and what is the best oil to use?

My vehicle is 1NZFE 121 (2002 model) and its done 84k km nearly.. and i use Toyota Oil also i pump 95octane... and do i need to change air-filter (i don't think i need to do that as i have traveled only 1600km) but let me know.. i have recently cleaned all the sensors with Kontakt SW, is it ok?

Do i need to replace spark plugs???