Can This Happen

rameez · August 24, 2012

Dear All,

My lancer A72 developed a engine miss problem on last sinhalese and tamil new years day and the engine started to jerk and miss when i was travelling and anyhow reved the engine and managed to get home. I later took the car to David todd and he returned the car back in a day saying that the platinum points have gone bust and had replaced them.The car was somewhat ok and i used it, and then anyway decided to do a engine tuneup from dhammika at cotta road on june 4th and the guy did a fantastic job and the car was smooth as ever.the fuel conumption also improved a lot.he told me that the platinum point and the condenser needs to be replaced and i put them and the other adjustments were also done by him. even by this time the car was gradually developing the miss and that was the reason i took it to dhammika.

since the car has been fine and smooth as well. till yesterday once again the miss and slight shiver has started to come and i know by past experience that if this is neglected could get worse.

How come this happens? can platinum points go bust as frequently as this?

any experts please help ....specially Davy if you see this

thanks

rameez

Edited August 24, 2012 by rameez

Davy · August 24, 2012

Hi Rameez, One reason for the platinum points to go bad as frequently is because the condenser (mounted on the distributor) is faulty. Was the condenser replaced in either of these occasions?

Edit:

oops, just saw that you have replaced the condenser on the second occasion. I hope you're positive that it was changed? And I hope it was the correct capacity? 0.27uF if I am not mistaken.

Why I asked you if the condenser was changed because most mechanics just replace the contact point set (platinum) and assume everything will be OK. But if the condenser is not perfect, there will be sparks between the platinum points when the two surfaces of the contact point separates and this degrades the contact point set much faster.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Davy

rameez · August 24, 2012

davy,

yes both were put brandnew and i specially asked for the best quality. had to pay about 700 for both i guess not sure though !!!

harshansenadhir · August 24, 2012

Also check the status of the ignition coil. When aged, coils use to decrease efficiency with the heat in the engine room.

rameez · August 24, 2012

i suspected that....but he checked that as well and told me that the ignition coil was fine.. but personally i have a hunch that it could be this. never changed it and from the looks of it it seems a bit old. my question is that if the coil was bad why did the car worked fine for almost 2 months ?

harshansenadhir · August 24, 2012

coils going bad cannot predict until it gives these symptoms. Once my best friends car used to stop randomly whenever it "feels" like, never could predict. Couldn't start back until the engine/engine bay cools down. Used to wrap the coil with a cloth soaked in water to start it back. Issue was the faulty coil.

One more thing, that is mount the coil on a position where it doesn't get engine/exhaust heat (away from exhaust manifold) and where there's plenty of air flow either from front gril or from auxiliary fans.

rameez · August 24, 2012

the coil is mounted closer to the shocks and closer to the battery. i think this is standard place for all lancer A72s. Anyway need to check the coil again as you say.

Sylvi · August 24, 2012

the coil is mounted closer to the shocks and closer to the battery. i think this is standard place for all lancer A72s. Anyway need to check the coil again as you say.

'rameez',

Remove the distributor cap clean with petrol dry same see if there are any hair line black lines when during rainy weather there can be moisture due to that HT coil spark will start arcing to the cap body. Examine your plug wires too.

Examine the HT coil top. Also some times the coil top you will notice the black hair line marks, this also somewhat similar to what I have stated on top para.

As you have replaced the contact points and condenser and it has been attended by most experienced Automobile engineers son, Mr. Dammika Fernando. You can inform him the suggestions what I have made to examine.

I have had this problem in few of my carburetor engines.

Sylvi Wijesinghe.

Sylvi · August 24, 2012

ramez,

watch the following clip carefully you can see a black hair line , which I have mentioned previous post.

http://www.ehow.com/video_2327540_inspecting-distributor-cap.html

Sylvi Wijesinghe.

Davy · August 24, 2012

coils going bad cannot predict until it gives these symptoms. Once my best friends car used to stop randomly whenever it "feels" like, never could predict. Couldn't start back until the engine/engine bay cools down. Used to wrap the coil with a cloth soaked in water to start it back. Issue was the faulty coil.

One more thing, that is mount the coil on a position where it doesn't get engine/exhaust heat (away from exhaust manifold) and where there's plenty of air flow either from front gril or from auxiliary fans.

This I have to agree with. I used to have a spare ignition coil in my car while I was diagnosing an ignition problem like this because the problem was intermittent and changing the coil and it was because of a burnt ballast resistor which caused the coil to heat up after a few minutes of operation. I guess the best thing for Rameez to do is manually inspect whether the ignition coil heats up and check if it's because of a faulty resistor. As for the location of the coil, in the A72 it's on the opposite side of the exhaust manifold and the components that heat up excessively, so I guess we can rule that out.

As for Sylvi's comment, yes the high tension leads (plug wires) do tend to leak when they're old because the insulation gets weak. I have come across situations where although a simple examination doesnt reveal cracks on the leads, the current is still strong enough to conduct through the insulation on to the chassis. So if the leads are pretty old, I guess replacing them would be a good idea overall if cleaning won't help.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Davy

carboy2011 · August 24, 2012

Rameez the high tension wires/leads are not that expensive for this car,also the distributore cap when i bought last was around 1250 if im not mistaken (Unit#d Mot#rs stuff) other brands much cheaper

rameez · August 24, 2012

where was that from......do you think the distributor cap is a cause as well..

anyway any idea how much a ignition coil and the plug wires should be....any specific brand for this.?

as harshana said may be i first check the ignition coil.. a friend told me that if the coil heats up then this could be the problem. but i have checked this and there is not such problem.

GMI · August 25, 2012

Get rid of this contact type ignition breakers and switch to electronic breakers. Call me on 0773865647 with your make and the model of the distributor. I'll check whether I can supply you a conversion kit which comes with a warranty. We use this electronic ignition conversion in all Mini & race cars and all good old English cars tunes by popular mechanic Sirisena.

Sylvi · August 25, 2012

Get rid of this contact type ignition breakers and switch to electronic breakers. Call me on 0773865647 with your make and the model of the distributor. I'll check whether I can supply you a conversion kit which comes with a warranty. We use this electronic ignition conversion in all Mini & race cars and all good old English cars tunes by popular mechanic Sirisena.

'GMI",

http://www.jcwhitney.com/ignitor-ii-electronic-ignition-conversion-kits/p2010758.jcwx

You refer to this kit. I have seen fitted running very well not in Srilanka for older cars.

What is the total cost in Srilankan Rupees.

Sylvi Wijesinghe.

rameez · August 29, 2012

Dear All,

I went to dhammika again and he said that there is no point in trying to tune the car again and told me to replace the rotor in the distributor as in the previous instance he told me that the rotor is short and told me to replace it with a longer one inside the distributor cup.so i went to panchi and got a new spark plug wire set and cup and also a new rotor. Then these were fixed and the issue is ok but i still get the miss when i rev the engine high and i am overtaking like a motorcycle going into reserve.

the next is the ignition coil which i will need to see if it needs to replaced. Anyone knows how to check the coil properly.?

mensoft · December 17, 2012

Hi All ,

This is same issue related to platinum set i had on last Saturday I'm posting it here rather starting a new thread . to share my experience and get more advice from experts .

the issue is suddenly my car engine have got started misfire in the cold start and it get enough of engine miss when accelerating after engine get heated .

so i just thought it was some issue with the spark plug and cleaned but still the issue is same . so when i just went to a garage on the way they said its some issue with platinum assessment and need to adjusted but they cat do it @ that time.

Fine. now i know where the issue is and then i wanted to try it my self . (i always like to DIY and go to the mechanic after i mes it ) any way i don't want to get tired with the adjustments and i want to the spare part shop with the car itself and ask for the platinum set it is 750/= witch mach to my car model but a Nissan part. and when buy it they ask to better replace condenser as well with platinum set that i got genuine Mitsubishi Cap. (Rs 450/=) .

and came home and started my operation i just open the distribute cap and got noted in the paper the way it was. and a photo from my phone for my safe . and removed the platinum set and the condenser and fixed the new parts as same way . but when i start the engine after assembly it didn't start . i tried all what i can do but it want start . and then i removed the wire from 1st plug and hod it keep to near engine and ask assistant to start the engine . (this i have seen @ garage and it must spark when start) but it didn't . after search abut one hour in Google .again i removed the distributor cap and ask to start the car without fixing the cover . but as per the theory i found on the net it must spark the platinum contact when it rotate . but my one didn't. so i start adjust it little by little and start the engine after some point i can see it get spark and the contact points get disconnect. @ this point i close the distribute cap and check the spark wires get current when start.

believe me guys engine got start in the first start itself and even i have not plug the first plug wire and i can see spark from the wire end so i ask to stop the engine and fix the plug wire and start again it get start like new. and engine run also very smooth and like earl don't have any miss or difficulty when accelerating .

now my question is am i in the correct adjustment of the platinum ?

is the issue is common one ? or is necessary to replace platinum set after some mileage ?

and in the new platinum set cover they have mention to apply grease on rotating arm where platinum set get touch with this rotating arm after every 2000km. and they have given a small packet of grease . i apply that too . but this have never seen or done in any service ?

Edited December 17, 2012 by mensoft

Rumesh88 · December 17, 2012

Hi All ,

Fine. now i know where the issue is and then i wanted to try it my self . (i always like to DIY and go to the mechanic after i mes it ) any way i don't want to get tired with the adjustments and i want to the spare part shop with the car itself and ask for the platinum set it is 750/= witch mach to my car model but a Nissan part. and when buy it they ask to better replace condenser as well with platinum set that i got genuine Mitsubishi Cap. (Rs 450/=) .

and in the new platinum set cover they have mention to apply grease on rotating arm where platinum set get touch with this rotating arm after every 2000km. and they have given a small packet of grease . i apply that too . but this have never seen or done in any service ?

Good to hear from DIYs. You seem to be enjoying DIY jobs. Between lines I can see your joy when your engine started after meddling with it! In your case you have not done the contact adjustment properly and this was why it did not start with the first attempt. There are two settings to adjust when you replace a contact points - the contact point gap and ignition timing. Both are easy things in an engine like yours as long as you know how. You seem to be relying on the Net for all the information. Yes you can find the information but need to use the correct jargon. Usually the contact point gap is adjusted to 0.5mm when the contacts are fully open. As for setting the timing be prepared with a suitable box-spanner (18mm in your case I believe) to rotate the engine. If not you can keep the gear engaged and rock the engine back and forth slowly to move contact points. Now locate the TDC mark on the main pulley and timing (firing) mark on the engine body. Then read the article http://home.mindspri...taticTiming.pdf or something similar. This is called static timing because there are other mechanisms such as centrifugal advance and vacuum advance to change the dynamic timing according to the engine load and speed. But this is good enough to get started.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Rumesh88

mensoft · December 17, 2012

Good to hear from DIYs. You seem to be enjoying DIY jobs. Between lines I can see your joy when your engine started after meddling with it! In your case you have not done the contact adjustment properly and this was why it did not start with the first attempt. There are two settings to adjust when you replace a contact points - the contact point gap and ignition timing. Both are easy things in an engine like yours as long as you know how. You seem to be relying on the Net for all the information. Yes you can find the information but need to use the correct jargon. Usually the contact point gap is adjusted to 0.5mm when the contacts are fully open. As for setting the timing be prepared with a suitable box-spanner (18mm in your case I believe) to rotate the engine. If not you can keep the gear engaged and rock the engine back and forth slowly to move contact points. Now locate the TDC mark on the main pulley and timing (firing) mark on the engine body. Then read the article http://home.mindspri...taticTiming.pdf or something similar. This is called static timing because there are other mechanisms such as centrifugal advance and vacuum advance to change the dynamic timing according to the engine load and speed. But this is good enough to get started.

Hi Rumesh88,

Thanks for your information . the link you have given is really valuable. i must try it and see. but im thinking since i didn't do any timing change can i keep with this current settings or your saying it can be adjust more .

also i like "If not you can keep the gear engaged and rock the engine back and forth slowly to move contact points." this i never notice when i had the issue maybe that time i was bit confuse . so i had to get assist from some one to start the engine and look @ the rotators. sometime its not a good method .

ill try it on this weekend and keep you guys update . again thaks from your information about timing . also how can i measure 0.5 mm ? is it the same gap we used to adjust spark plug gap ( axo blade ) ?

Rumesh88 · December 17, 2012

Hacksaw blade is around 0.7mm thick. If you don't hv a feeler gauge you can use a paper knife blade to get the thickness approximately. If your car is performing all right now you can just check the timing to see if it is OK before doing adjustments. Good luck with your DIY job. You can PM me should you wish to do so.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Rumesh88

rameez · December 19, 2012

even i have the same problem..........and although i went and got the platinum points and condnser replaced the car is smooth as ever for 3 weeks but then the problem starts coming again...i did not have time to check it again since my exams are coming back so once that is done i will check it with another mehcanic, even my car was very smooth as mensoft told....but the problem does come again after some time

Rumesh88 · December 20, 2012

even i have the same problem..........and although i went and got the platinum points and condnser replaced the car is smooth as ever for 3 weeks but then the problem starts coming again...i did not have time to check it again since my exams are coming back so once that is done i will check it with another mehcanic, even my car was very smooth as mensoft told....but the problem does come again after some time

Is yr ignition coil fitted in an upright position? Ignition coils fitted in this position are more susceptible to internal arcing because even a hairline opening at the output connector would result in moisture gathering inside. You may get internal insulation breakdowns in horizontally fixed coils too but with less probability. Pls remember that the ignition coils are filled with insulating oil (transformer oil) and there is a way to know if the coil which is supposed to be hermetically sealed is still intact. What I used to do was to take out the ignition coil when it is cold and fill up the cavity at the output terminal with transformer oil and then immerse the coil upright in boiling water. If you see bubbles then probably the seal is gone. All is not lost however, because you can try to refill and remove air trapped inside if you have the patience to repeat above procedure for a few hot cold cycles. One might say it is a makabaas job but has worked for me. Otherwise replace the whole thing.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Rumesh88