Home Air Conditioners Help ....

[Ginger]

Early Wishes for a very happy new year.....

Appreciate if you could share your experience or advise accordingly.

I am planning air conditioning my newly built home in Kotte.

I will need AC units as follow.

18000BTU - 02 units

12000BTU - 03 units

9000BTU - 01 unit

18000BTU and 12000BTU units are for bedrooms and 9000BTU is for my small office room. Heavy use will be only week ends.

I did some price and technology research in the market - it is just like the auto market. The leading companies as agents for leading brands - the prices are very high with VAT etc....

Then moved to some small retail importers, the prices vary very heavily for the same brand with same features with conflicting stories and finally became quite confusing.

Specially for the Panasonic / LG / Misubishi / latest inverter models.

1. Since not a heavy user, is it a good decision to move to Inverter models or use normal ACs ..??

2. Could you propose a good brand and retail importer to partner with for this small project

Planning coming to SL next week to finalize.

Thanks all in advance...

[john cooper]

Try with

Civ*mech Dehiwala

[maersk]

Is this based on your personal experience? Could you mention the agent? Because it will be really useful to us.

Yes and Abans.

But I'm happy with their service so far even though I have to pay a one time visiting charge (1500 for my area). If the technician can rectify the defect he'll do it without any extra fee. In many instance I've seen the problem is blown fuse or wire eaten by rats etc.. If the problem is with any of the PCBs, then they'll take it to their work shop. Sometimes they repair it too for a reasonable fee but I feel they can do much better. I found out this after fiddleing with few PCBs which they returned after swapping them with new ones. i managed to repair them for future use and one of them actually in use now without any problem.

Also I must mention here modern PCBs are becoming very delicate and confined, soldering iron can do more harm than good.

Problem with 'no visiting charge' guys is that their fee is mostly depend on what they see in your garage and house rather than the actual fault.

Edited April 7, 2015 by maersk

[Ginger]

Try with

Civ*mech Dehiwala

This place is more for commercial AC business and does not focus much on residential projects.

[Ginger]

It is very pathatic that the idustry does not tolerate the rational of customers. More questions and they stop ansering the phone. More than they are informative and educate the customer, a lot of hidden facts prevail. Consumer protection authorities shoul be aware. I think same thing is hapenning in the Atuo industry, with a lot of badges, stickers etc..

[maersk]

It is very pathatic that the idustry does not tolerate the rational of customers. More questions and they stop ansering the phone. More than they are informative and educate the customer, a lot of hidden facts prevail. Consumer protection authorities shoul be aware. I think same thing is hapenning in the Atuo industry, with a lot of badges, stickers etc..

If you talk to the agents I'm sure they'll happy to answer any questions that you might have and provide all the info you are looking for. Dodgy 3rd party resellers may not know all the info. Remember, you'll get only monkeys for peanuts.

PM me if you want a contact at Abans who'll anwser all your questions.

[Ginger]

Even the agents are same. Only those in the market know the realities of the industry. There are a lot hidden behind models specifications and electrical componenets.

Eg: When they issue a quotaion - 13000BTU PHK model and 18000BTU RHK model.....questioned why... the answer is RHK is more suitable with a lot of power features ...etc... etc...

but the reality is the other model is out of stock and they want dispose of whatever left overs to the unsespecting customer - everyone including agentes are the same....and there are more... issues like above.

[The Don]

Interesting topic.

Has anybody tried Frostaire as they are a farily old company which has been in business for a while. Can only be a good things.

Also there is a brand called Daikin. While its of Thai origin, its funny enough something I see quite often in a lot of places I've travelled so I assume it can't be half bad.

If you are trying to air condition an entire house, does it not make sense to get a cooling tower and have a centralised system?

Finally, I've never coped well with A/Cs in houses. I find the effect rather dehydrating so have a habit of switching them off and using a fan, particularly when I was in New Delhi for a month and a half. Now obviously Delhi isn't very humid. But it raises an interesting question on having air conditioning.

Also the bacterial filters on some are very useful, because humidity will cause some mould growth sometimes inside ACs so the filter will keep some of that stuff from being circulated. Also you have to consider the health aspects of living in an air conditioned environment with all the windows closed and air being recirculated a lot more, because this can spead any unhealthy microbes, say if one member of your family is sick with a cold or flue. This is what the baterial filters are supposed to take care of though I'm not sure how efective they are in real life.

In terms of Warranty, I do not know about their AC division but their consumer goods division is rubbish. I've known of guys, even on this forum who bought their direct drive washing machines only to be told they were unable to repair faults under warranty. The same happened with an LG TV I had which they could not repair either. So don't have much confidence on their after sales support. In terms of panasonic I've had nothing but good things to say about Uni Walkers in terms of repairs, though not sure how its like under soft logic.

Edited April 7, 2015 by The Don

[Kavvz]

Yes and Abans.

But I'm happy with their service so far even though I have to pay a one time visiting charge (1500 for my area). If the technician can rectify the defect he'll do it without any extra fee. In many instance I've seen the problem is blown fuse or wire eaten by rats etc.. If the problem is with any of the PCBs, then they'll take it to their work shop. Sometimes they repair it too for a reasonable fee but I feel they can do much better. I found out this after fiddleing with few PCBs which they returned after swapping them with new ones. i managed to repair them for future use and one of them actually in use now without any problem.

Also I must mention here modern PCBs are becoming very delicate and confined, soldering iron can do more harm than good.

Problem with 'no visiting charge' guys is that their fee is mostly depend on what they see in your garage and house rather than the actual fault.

Thanks man good advice and I'm glad you could swap the PCB out yourself.

....

Problem with 'no visiting charge' guys is that their fee is mostly depend on what they see in your garage and house rather than the actual fault.

No worries next time give me a call. I'll park in your driveway when he comes over. The bugger will feel so bad for you he'll give you Rs. 1500 and go...

Edited April 7, 2015 by Kavvz

[iRage]

DAIKIN is actually a Japanese brand. However, like everything and everyone else, they manufacture products all over the planet for the export markets.

[Kavvz]

Also the bacterial filters on some are very useful, because humidity will cause some mould growth sometimes inside ACs so the filter will keep some of that stuff from being circulated. Also you have to consider the health aspects of living in an air conditioned environment with all the windows closed and air being recirculated a lot more, because this can spead any unhealthy microbes, say if one member of your family is sick with a cold or flue. This is what the baterial filters are supposed to take care of though I'm not sure how efective they are in real life.

Window type A/C's pick up air from outside as do most central A/C. more complex systems have an air return for efficiency but these can too can be closed or block off as needed so it shouldn't affect the rest of the house ( assuming the sick person is confined and the rest of the house follows good hand hygiene).

I think the microbial filter is put in place to stop any mold or bacteria growing within the humid condenser area from being picked up and recirculated out with the cold air...

[The Don]

Window type A/C's pick up air from outside as do most central A/C. more complex systems have an air return for efficiency but these can too can be closed or block off as needed so it shouldn't affect the rest of the house ( assuming the sick person is confined and the rest of the house follows good hand hygiene).

I think the microbial filter is put in place to stop any mold or bacteria growing within the humid condenser area from being picked up and recirculated out with the cold air...

Yes, but they don't have any mechanism of taking the air inside out to replace with fresh air do they? What they do is blow fresh air in, and rely on other mechanism for circulation.

I take your point there about the advantage of having separate systems for each room vs having a centralised system, because it does contain it.

[Ginger]

Thanks Don.

I did not try Frostair, since they do not have a good reputation with their new projects. Trying to be a rationale customer, has taught me a lot of issues in the field. Even I am thinking of investing in the industry to set up a small company, once retired and come back to Sri Lanka.

Whoever doesnot want to give straight unit price of ACs, there is something to hide. Other minor fixing costa are immaterial.

[Kavvz]

Yes, but they don't have any mechanism of taking the air inside out to replace with fresh air do they? What they do is blow fresh air in, and rely on other mechanism for circulation.

I take your point there about the advantage of having separate systems for each room vs having a centralised system, because it does contain it.

1. For central systems with vents and return ducts etc, (like in offices): There is. I don't really understand it all myself, but yes, there is a system in place for fresh air vs recirculated air.. Whether it works like intended or whether it works at all is another story. The air re-circulation system that picks up the return air (form the return air vents) mixes it with fresh air and then feeds it into the system. The problem is you can't turn off re-circulated air and just specify fresh air. There's always a bit of returned air / recirculated air that gets picked up for efficiency, so you have to try to isolate the bad / contaminated air by blocking off the return vents manually in that area / or create some sort of rudimentary negative pressure system in that area by keeping the window open a crack in that room. There is a big central filter, but as you say, I think it just helps keep mold and bacteria that could be growing inside the A/C from recirculating...

2. For systems which just duct cold air in to the room: Yeah, you're right there's no system in place to take the air out, but that's better really, because as mentioned above the central air systems don't really take the returned air out completely and one can't really isolate bad air / contaminated air anyway. For this type of system I guess the best thing to do is to create a bit of localized negative pressure in the area where the sick person is by opening a window or setting up a pedestal fan to blow air outside...

All this works only if the sick person stays in one spot through. Which again brings us back to the trusty old Window A/C unit: Cheap and really in this instance much superior! Gotta watch for mold and bacteria on those things though...

Edited April 7, 2015 by Kavvz

[maersk]

Even the agents are same. Only those in the market know the realities of the industry. There are a lot hidden behind models specifications and electrical componenets.

Eg: When they issue a quotaion - 13000BTU PHK model and 18000BTU RHK model.....questioned why... the answer is RHK is more suitable with a lot of power features ...etc... etc...

but the reality is the other model is out of stock and they want dispose of whatever left overs to the unsespecting customer - everyone including agentes are the same....and there are more... issues like above.

I don't think any of the dealers are importing top of the range products due to high cost. You might be able to place a special order but I think what is available will do the job too.

Interesting topic.

Has anybody tried Frostaire as they are a farily old company which has been in business for a while. Can only be a good things.

Also there is a brand called Daikin. While its of Thai origin, its funny enough something I see quite often in a lot of places I've travelled so I assume it can't be half bad.

If you are trying to air condition an entire house, does it not make sense to get a cooling tower and have a centralised system?

Finally, I've never coped well with A/Cs in houses. I find the effect rather dehydrating so have a habit of switching them off and using a fan, particularly when I was in New Delhi for a month and a half. Now obviously Delhi isn't very humid. But it raises an interesting question on having air conditioning.

Also the bacterial filters on some are very useful, because humidity will cause some mould growth sometimes inside ACs so the filter will keep some of that stuff from being circulated. Also you have to consider the health aspects of living in an air conditioned environment with all the windows closed and air being recirculated a lot more, because this can spead any unhealthy microbes, say if one member of your family is sick with a cold or flue. This is what the baterial filters are supposed to take care of though I'm not sure how efective they are in real life.

In terms of Warranty, I do not know about their AC division but their consumer goods division is rubbish. I've known of guys, even on this forum who bought their direct drive washing machines only to be told they were unable to repair faults under warranty. The same happened with an LG TV I had which they could not repair either. So don't have much confidence on their after sales support. In terms of panasonic I've had nothing but good things to say about Uni Walkers in terms of repairs, though not sure how its like under soft logic.

Both LG and Mitsubishi are made in Thailand too.

Cooling tower systems are for industrial applications and not for homes. Also these systems use chilled water as refriegerent thus need piping for that. Alternative solution is Multi head split system, which is basically one out door unit connected to Multiple indoor units. Better alternative system will be a VRF (variable refrigerant flow) system which is most efficient of all but at a very high cost. Disadvantage of the multiple head system is that it requires individual copper piping. All these systems are economical only if Ginger is planning to run all his units all the time otherwise single head split system will be the best.

Window type A/C's pick up air from outside as do most central A/C. more complex systems have an air return for efficiency but these can too can be closed or block off as needed so it shouldn't affect the rest of the house ( assuming the sick person is confined and the rest of the house follows good hand hygiene).

This is incorrect. Window and split systems are not provided with external air intake method. Actually it's a big disadvantage as if you are using asplit system for longer hours room CO2 level will be high. Even in package type system it's between 10% to 20% fresh air as otherwise power consumption will be very high. However some applications like in operating theaters need 100% fresh air.

Thanks Don.

I did not try Frostair, since they do not have a good reputation with their new projects. Trying to be a rationale customer, has taught me a lot of issues in the field. Even I am thinking of investing in the industry to set up a small company, once retired and come back to Sri Lanka.

Whoever doesnot want to give straight unit price of ACs, there is something to hide. Other minor fixing costa are immaterial.

This is strange, I have all the prices for each model/brand including seasonal discount and credit card offer prices which I got when I purchased my Mitsubishi unit about 2 weeks back. Prices and discounts are valid till end of April and I'm happy to share them with you if interested. Apparently credit card prices are about 10% better than cash discount plus you get to pay in intrest free installments. Hope I don't sound like a salesman. Usually installation is free up to 5 meters of copper tube and additional meter will cost about 2500 lkr.

[Kavvz]

...

This is incorrect. Window and split systems are not provided with external air intake method. Actually it's a big disadvantage as if you are using asplit system for longer hours room CO2 level will be high. Even in package type system it's between 10% to 20% fresh air as otherwise power consumption will be very high. However some applications like in operating theaters need 100% fresh air.

...

Oh? I stand corrected on the Window A/C's then. I always thought they pulled air in from the outside. But come to think of it you are probably right as the filter on those things are in the front that face the room (behind the big square plastic grill under the louvers used to direct cold air) so that's proably where the air is being pulled in from.

As for the central ducted / vented A/C's: I guess there are different types for the type I'm familiar has an air exhaust to duct air out, an intake duct to bring fresh air in as well as a 'fresh air' and by default a 'recirculate air' setting separate from the A/C controls..but then again, I could be wrong like above.

[The Don]

Why I asked about cooling towers is because about 15 years ago, I visited a small apartment complex (only 6 units of which only 3 were complete when I visited) and they had a central air conditioning system with a cooling tower. So the system was only cooling 6 bed rooms and 3 living areas. I asumed at that at that level it was economically feasible, as Gingers own home seems to be 5 bed rooms and probably at least 2 living areas.

It was a guess of course. I have no idea of actual costs.

[Ginger]

Thanks Don - Central ACs for individual residential homes not suitable. Same may create some helath hazards, due to bateria congestion at the main blower / filter / cool area (one point of health hazards). If something goes wrong whole house will be affected. Individual units are the best solution, I believe.

[Kavvz]

Why I asked about cooling towers is because about 15 years ago, I visited a small apartment complex (only 6 units of which only 3 were complete when I visited) and they had a central air conditioning system with a cooling tower. So the system was only cooling 6 bed rooms and 3 living areas. I asumed at that at that level it was economically feasible, as Gingers own home seems to be 5 bed rooms and probably at least 2 living areas.

It was a guess of course. I have no idea of actual costs.

Ginger's cooling the whole house? Crap! I didn't realize. I thought he's only doing a bed room or two at night etc..That's gonna be one expensive electricity bill !!

With that kinda fancy-pants house, I'm sure he's got a pool too: Pool party at Ginger's everybody!

[Ginger]

Kavvz

Only 5 bed rooms will have split ACs (with a small library). The open areas in both floors will have air coolers - (will not be good, if kept close to electical applianes like TV etc... need to position them properly.

To clarify - By ACing the house, I expect a strategic value addition more than just comfort and sleep.

Few people at the house are - doing higher studies (daughter a lecturer at a government universiy and son a banker - ) So the return on investment will be positive - (at least I hope so)

[Kavvz]

Kavvz

Only 5 bed rooms will have split ACs (with a small library). The open areas in both floors will have air coolers - (will not be good, if kept close to electical applianes like TV etc... need to position them properly.

To clarify - By ACing the house, I expect a strategic value addition more than just comfort and sleep.

Few people at the house are - doing higher studies (daughter a lecturer at a government universiy and son a banker - ) So the return on investment will be positive - (at least I hope so)

Oh I'm sure it will be so Ginger! My best wishes towards their future endeavours...

[maersk]

http://forum.autolanka.com/user/3021-kavvz/'>Kavvz

The open areas in both floors will have air coolers.

Do you mean evaporative type air coolers? (Is there any other kind?)

Do you think they are effective in humid CMB/Kotte Wx? As far as know they are good only for hot dry areas such as Nuwara Eliya in summer time. They are also known as swamp coolers aren't they?

I have a portable air cooler (Electra brand, from airport duty free) which is very effective at our home at up country but make things worst in CMB.

If you had any professional technical advice regarding installing air coolers please do share it with us. It's a very good alternative to A/C in terms of power consumption as well as capital cost.

[Ginger]

maersk - Thanks. It is a good point, to consider.

I was going by what few people proposed and no professional advice. I was thinking... the ground floor has a large fish pond with drizzling type water filter spray. It is much cooler downstairs. So I thought same effect will be with air coolers too.

[Nishan.dj]

I have a portable air cooler (Electra brand, from airport duty free) which is very effective at our home at up country but make things worst in CMB.

The humidity is the main concern here. Colombo we have around 80% and up country it is around 50%. As I wrote earlier, the temperature is not the key point but the humidity. If we can reduce the humidity, we feel comfort even in Colombo.

Air coolers work well on low humid places. Read this for additional info.

I don't think having an Air Cooler is effective at high humid areas such as Colombo ( You may get a bit of a difference by adding ICE to the water tray but it is not always practical.)

Another problem is that, an air cooler will increase the humidity level which facilitate bacterial organisms to grow faster.

Nature provide us the protection by killing the bacteria using O3 (Ozone) and that is why we need a proper ventilation. So the first thing at home would be to have a proper ventilation system even if it is air conditioned. (At least an hour for a day should be opened to the outside to flow natural air in and out)

To overcome these issues for sealed environments such as labs and medical institutes, Ozone generators are used BUT those are handled by professionals who knows the facts. (Because Ozone is harmful to us)

[Sampath Gunasekera]

The humidity is the main concern here. Colombo we have around 80% and up country it is around 50%. As I wrote earlier, the temperature is not the key point but the humidity. If we can reduce the humidity, we feel comfort even in Colombo.

Air coolers work well on low humid places. Read this for additional info.

I don't think having an Air Cooler is effective at high humid areas such as Colombo ( You may get a bit of a difference by adding ICE to the water tray but it is not always practical.)

Another problem is that, an air cooler will increase the humidity level which facilitate bacterial organisms to grow faster.

Nature provide us the protection by killing the bacteria using O3 (Ozone) and that is why we need a proper ventilation. So the first thing at home would be to have a proper ventilation system even if it is air conditioned. (At least an hour for a day should be opened to the outside to flow natural air in and out)

To overcome these issues for sealed environments such as labs and medical institutes, Ozone generators are used BUT those are handled by professionals who knows the facts. (Because Ozone is harmful to us)

Yes, Humidity is very important for air coolers.

I was in Delhi ,India for 3 years. I always used an air cooler , which is typical to Indians and much cheaper than A/C.

Delhi was much hot (sometimes 46 Centigrades) in summer and humidity is very low.

So cooler works very fine and much cheaper than A/C. (Mine was Indian Rupees 1500/= in 1998 )

Believe me, sometimes I had to add more than 25 litres of water per day to cooler , due to high evaporation rate in the summer.

Technique is very simple. Cooler fix out side of the room and connect to window open of the room. Fill the lower area of the cooler by water. Small electric pump pumps the water to the top and circulate and wet the straw mats on side and rear panels. The electrical fan rotates and suck air through the wet straw mats and blow in to room.

It makes the room cool. (Like Maruti, technique is simple , works fine, but finishing is poor. )

But in Sri Lanka humidity is very high and I don't think this technique works here.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Sampath Gunasekera

[maersk]

maersk - Thanks. It is a good point, to consider.

the ground floor has a large fish pond with drizzling type water filter spray. It is much cooler downstairs.

Drizzling water probably giving you a cold feeling isn't it? May there's a small effect too. Since all the heated air is rising, downstairs is naturally colder than upstairs. If there's a way to remove all the heated air, by means of natural or mechanical ventilation it'll be very effective. I'm sure your architect already thought about that. Discuss with him anyway. I'm thinking of Louvered or turbine roof ventilator.