Fuel Efficiency Of Hybrid Vehicle

[pug306xsi]

Saving the environment by charging the car with electricity burned from coal

@Magnum I am thinking of turning to Diesel too.

[B2Spirit]

It is very simple.

People buy hybrids cause they are comparatively cheaper and newer.

You get a decent vehicle with comparatively higher number of bells & whistles.

And fuel wise the running cost is significantly lower.

Further in the crazy SL tax structure along with electrics that's the only type of vehicle with a reasonable tax rate (BY SL standards).

Any other reason is plain BS.

A real environmentally concerned person would be someone who would buy a Leaf and Install a Solar System with the money he would have spent on a hybrid.

Before i get blasted,I do drive a hybrid

Edited January 19, 2016 by B2Spirit

[matroska]

It is very simple.

People buy hybrids cause they are comparatively cheaper and newer.

You get a decent vehicle with comparatively higher number of bells & whistles.

And fuel wise the running cost is significantly lower.

Further in the crazy SL tax structure along with electrics that's the only type of vehicle with a reasonable tax rate (BY SL standards).

Any other reason is plain BS.

A real environmentally concerned person would be someone who would buy a Leaf and Install a Solar System with the money he would have spent on a hybrid.

Before i get blasted,I do drive a hybrid

exact reason i bought one ( Yes I do drive one too. )

[gayanath]

and Long term benefit for owners ??? Where is the benefit in that to the owner ? You saved some money on fuel and purchase to spend on something else ?? so in other words you cancelled out the benefit ?

I enjoyed having this debate with gayanath...but this is just like trying to get an Ostrich to get it head out of a sand pit.

I too enjoying having this with you dear fried..

Lets see this (aspect of cost of ownership and/or rate of return).

As you said, Japanese instructed you, not to buy hybrid. It's extremely correct. According to the price in japan, you have to invest almost 1.5 times for same category hybrid and have to save it from fuel. (Vitz 1.15 M, Aqua 1.75 M yen). If you are not a frequent car user, exactly you will loose.

But in Sri Lankan context (yes, there are used cars to buy. but lets assume I need to buy a new car...)

Vitz will cost at-least 0.5 M LKR more than Aqua.

Why cant I spend the some portion of capital saving and fuel saving for the battery replacement after 7-8 years (hope battery price will come down with aftermarket batteries. Yesterday I bought very good Li-iron battery for my mob phone (S3) which made in Sri Lanka with one year warranty for 480 rupees)

If I am a low user as 10km per day (actual I am not a low user) will I loose .. ??

[iRage]

I too enjoying having this with you dear fried..

Lets see this (aspect of cost of ownership and/or rate of return).

As you said, Japanese instructed you, not to buy hybrid. It's extremely correct. According to the price in japan, you have to invest almost 1.5 times for same category hybrid and have to save it from fuel. (Vitz 1.15 M, Aqua 1.75 M yen). If you are not a frequent car user, exactly you will loose.

But in Sri Lankan context (yes, there are used cars to buy. but lets assume I need to buy a new car...)

Vitz will cost at-least 0.5 M LKR more than Aqua.

Why cant I spend the some portion of capital saving and fuel saving for the battery replacement after 7-8 years (hope battery price will come down with aftermarket batteries. Yesterday I bought very good Li-iron battery for my mob phone (S3) which made in Sri Lanka with one year warranty for 480 rupees)

If I am a low user as 10km per day (actual I am not a low user) will I loose .. ??

Well even in that case isn't the benefit "marginal" to say the least ? Long term benefit will be gained if you are lucky enough for the Hybrid system NOT to give issues. Then again, it all depends on what one's definition of long term is...at the end of the day...seems like over a period of time the marginal benefit between the two would diminish. Then the flip side of it is....if the Vitz is only ).5 million more than an Aqua for that extra money how much more longevity and thus utility can you obtain from it ? obviously that would have to be correlated with the additional cost of fuel...

As for battery prices coming down...well i dunno if I would want to buy a used battery...unless I saw where it came from with my own eyes and knew why it came out of the car that it used to be in as well as I know that the sky is blue (yes..I am very very pessimistic about car and parts sales people in SL). But yes..battery tech seems to be evolving so hopefully they would be coming down in price (or at least get more bang for the buck). That is if these guys don't discover something that is completely incompatible with what is being used now. Then again, you have to wonder by how much the battery prices would go down by once other alternative technologies become (if they would) mainstream. (At least at this point in time I am quite certain that my Morris Minor tourer will run as long as I can get a few bottles of petrol).

But what I don't get is this...Why are we even having these threads ? HOLY C$#@! If you buy a new car, Hybrid or ICE...just use the damn thing and enjoy your freedom of mobility (well at least enjoy your freedom to be in a car being immobile in a traffic jam) ! Every time someone buys a Hybrid seems like a thread comes up about KMPL and saving the environment and all other kinds of crap...

Do we have any threads on how Hybrid systems work and the components and other useful technical info on how to take care of them ? Now those would be more valuable than this hog wash....

[gayanath]

Saving the environment by charging the car with electricity burned from coal

@Magnum I am thinking of turning to Diesel too.

Shall I elaborate this ......

According to 16th Janualy 2016 figures, our energy supply is

41% - Hydro

38% - Coal

18% - Fuel oil

Almost all Fuel oil plants are combined cycle and thermal efficiency is 48%-50%. Coal power plant operates around 37% efficiency level but cost wise more advantageous (although there are environmental impacts, it has has properly designed to cater the environment issues as much as possible). No need to mention about hydro power plants.

Although, both IC engine and combine cycle power plant using oil, the efficiency difference is 20% and 50%. So, Let's assume loss due to internal matters (chemical reaction / heat) of the electric car is 20%, still the system efficiency is 40% (50% x 0.8 = 40%). Which means half of the fuel need comparing with IC engines.

Why not the electric cars environment friendly?.

Though we could obtain around 20% (25% extreme) efficiency level by gasoline engine, it will not operate in the maximum efficiency point (rpm) while powering the car due to speed variations. Hybrids are more prone to harvest the energy from fuel as it tries to operate at the best efficient point as much as possible (but not always), but ordinary car, the actual average efficiency is less than 15% (may be 10%).

That's why first hybrids, then electric cars manufactured. Ultimately, it's the best if we could charge electric cars by solar, wind or hydro power. But burning oil or coal is not so bad.

[gayanath]

Do we have any threads on how Hybrid systems work and the components and other useful technical info on how to take care of them ? Now those would be more valuable than this hog wash....

Exactly...

For me, I am reading a lot regarding hybrids bec, I should ready for any issue as a user. But don' know about others.

[dhanuFB15]

Saving the environment by charging the car with electricity burned from coal

@Magnum I am thinking of turning to Diesel too.

Yes. Only Advantage of hybrid is re-generative power that charge battery when breaking

[gayanath]

...

Edited January 19, 2016 by gayanath

[gayanath]

Yes. Only Advantage of hybrid is re-generative power that charge battery when breaking

It's clear that you have no idea how hybrid system working....

[Shack]

"It's clear that you have no idea how hybrid system working"..Exactly dude !. Some Idiots never accept the fact that they don't know!!

Edited January 19, 2016 by Shack

[Hoonigan]

I too enjoying having this with you dear fried..

Lets see this (aspect of cost of ownership and/or rate of return).

As you said, Japanese instructed you, not to buy hybrid. It's extremely correct. According to the price in japan, you have to invest almost 1.5 times for same category hybrid and have to save it from fuel. (Vitz 1.15 M, Aqua 1.75 M yen). If you are not a frequent car user, exactly you will loose.

But in Sri Lankan context (yes, there are used cars to buy. but lets assume I need to buy a new car...)

Vitz will cost at-least 0.5 M LKR more than Aqua.

Why cant I spend the some portion of capital saving and fuel saving for the battery replacement after 7-8 years (hope battery price will come down with aftermarket batteries. Yesterday I bought very good Li-iron battery for my mob phone (S3) which made in Sri Lanka with one year warranty for 480 rupees)

If I am a low user as 10km per day (actual I am not a low user) will I loose .. ??

Let's look at a simplified scenario

If we consider a conventional car that does 10Kmpl and drive an average of 1000Km per month. That means 100 Liters of fuel. If we assume 95Oct at 131 LKR per liter, that would be 13,100 LKR.

If we assume the same user using a Hybrid that does 20Kmpl, he would use 50 liters of fuel at a cost of 6,550 LKR. This means that he will save 6,550LKR per month if he does 1,000Km per month.

Apply the same to someone who does 3,000Km per month and his savings would be 19,650 LKR. So, for someone who does a lot of driving, the savings do add up to a lot.

For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that purchase price is similar and that non hybrid system related servicing/repairs cost the same for the ICE and the hybrid.

Now if we assume a Hybrid specific repair comes up in 12 months for 100,000. The guy who did 1,000Km per month would have saved 6,550x12 = 78,600 to cover this repair. The guy who did 3,000Km per month would have saved 19,650x12=235,800 to cover the repair.

This is indeed an overly simplified view of this but this is where the higher mileage economy thought process comes from.

[gayanath]

Let's look at a simplified scenario

If we consider a conventional car that does 10Kmpl and drive an average of 1000Km per month. That means 100 Liters of fuel. If we assume 95Oct at 131 LKR per liter, that would be 13,100 LKR.

If we assume the same user using a Hybrid that does 20Kmpl, he would use 50 liters of fuel at a cost of 6,550 LKR. This means that he will save 6,550LKR per month if he does 1,000Km per month.

Apply the same to someone who does 3,000Km per month and his savings would be 19,650 LKR. So, for someone who does a lot of driving, the savings do add up to a lot.

For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that purchase price is similar and that non hybrid system related servicing/repairs cost the same for the ICE and the hybrid.

Now if we assume a Hybrid specific repair comes up in 12 months for 100,000. The guy who did 1,000Km per month would have saved 6,550x12 = 78,600 to cover this repair. The guy who did 3,000Km per month would have saved 19,650x12=235,800 to cover the repair.

This is indeed an overly simplified view of this but this is where the higher mileage economy thought process comes from.

Yes, you are correct. Higher millage economy is the very basic concept of hybrid.

I have added one more thing in my post.

If I mention it again,

In Sri Lankan context, (thanks to the tax system), if some body (who has lower usage as 10km per day) intends to buy a new car (though there are several used comfortable ICE cars available in the market for low price), also will not loose due to saving from capital investment.

[gayanath]

Well even in that case isn't the benefit "marginal" to say the least ? Long term benefit will be gained if you are lucky enough for the Hybrid system NOT to give issues. Then again, it all depends on what one's definition of long term is...at the end of the day...seems like over a period of time the marginal benefit between the two would diminish. Then the flip side of it is....if the Vitz is only ).5 million more than an Aqua for that extra money how much more longevity and thus utility can you obtain from it ? obviously that would have to be correlated with the additional cost of fuel...

If I see this case in one more angle, definitely you will win this .....

As an individual, we are benefiting by buying hybrids due to concessionary tax. But as a nation (or a country), the tax paid will remain in the country and the vehicle price only will be going out.

For non hybrid car the lesser value will be going out from the country (lets assume for Vitz we have to pay 1.15 M yen to japan). If we buy a hybrid, higher value will be going out from the country (for Aqua 1.75 M yen to be paid to japan). As a nation, if we cannot recover this 0.6 M yen from the fuel and from the environment (as a nation we have to calculate the environment impact and it's too depends on the usage pattern or the amount of fuel burning, other additions, etc), definitely the country will be lose.

This is the most important location where high millage (per month) usage scenario playing his role. And which non of us concerning.

I don't know whether the policy makers counted this.

[iRage]

If I see this case in one more angle, definitely you will win this .....

As an individual, we are benefiting by buying hybrids due to concessionary tax. But as a nation (or a country), the tax paid will remain in the country and the vehicle price only will be going out.

For non hybrid car the lesser value will be going out from the country (lets assume for Vitz we have to pay 1.15 M yen to japan). If we buy a hybrid, higher value will be going out from the country (for Aqua 1.75 M yen to be paid to japan). As a nation, if we cannot recover this 0.6 M yen from the fuel and from the environment (as a nation we have to calculate the environment impact and it's too depends on the usage pattern or the amount of fuel burning, other additions, etc), definitely the country will be lose.

This is the most important location where high millage (per month) usage scenario playing his role. And which non of us concerning.

I don't know whether the policy makers counted this.

When the whole lowered tax for Hybrid first came out sometime ago I remember reading a proposal/report that claimed the premise for the tax reduction would be that this would lower the nation's fuel bill as whole. That too I didn't see much of calculations beyond a calculation of difference in fuel used and its cost savings compared against the lost tax revenue.

So were things like what you mention considered...don't think so...just like it wasn't thought that cars would flood the streets virtually crippling the city.<DISCLAIMER : going further off topic..yes everyone has a right to own what ever car they want...but in most other countries just because you own a car doesn't mean you HAVE to use it everyday for every single thing you have to do>

[RViji]

It would seem very simple to estimate the actual amount of fossil fuels in mpg to run an electric car.

For internal combustion engines - petrol vehicles have a conversion of from 20% to 25%. Diesel engines up to 35%.

So if we produce electricity from crude oil we have the initial conversion from burning the fuel which runs the turbins. What is the estimated energy conversion rate? You would have to factor in all costs from pumping water for steam generation to pumping water for cooling. Also the costs of the water itself which is often highly subsidized.

Next we have the energy loss of transmission which I have seen estimated at 5% to 8%.

Next we have the charging of the batteries with AC/DC converter. I have no numbers as to the energy loss at this point but I am sure that it is known around 5%.

Finally we have the battery power to the electric motor. What kind of energy loss do we have at this stage? Again I have no idea as to whether the loss at this stage is 5% or 10%.

Efficient electric motors can achieve better than 90% energy conversion.

Just guessing, I would say that diesel is more efficient than electric and electric is likely more efficient than gas.

[gayanath]

It would seem very simple to estimate the actual amount of fossil fuels in mpg to run an electric car.

For internal combustion engines - petrol vehicles have a conversion of from 20% to 25%. Diesel engines up to 35%.

So if we produce electricity from crude oil we have the initial conversion from burning the fuel which runs the turbins. What is the estimated energy conversion rate? You would have to factor in all costs from pumping water for steam generation to pumping water for cooling. Also the costs of the water itself which is often highly subsidized.

You cannot take 20% to 25% from a petrol vehicle and 35% from diesel. This is the maximum value can be obtain from engine. If you run a generator from ICE engine, then you could obtain this value bec it will operate on highest efficient point. When it run a car, most of the time it will operate in inefficient point. So the actual value could be less than 10% for petrol and likewise for diesel too. That's why hybrid is more efficient than non-hybrid because it tries to operate in highest efficient point with battery as a energy buffer.

At electricity generation, combine cycle power plant (which are having diesel gas turbines) operates theoretically around 55% and above. Practically in our case 48-50%.

If you need any more detail, I could give more.

[dhanuFB15]

It's clear that you have no idea how hybrid system working....

"It's clear that you have no idea how hybrid system working"..Exactly dude !. Some Idiots never accept the fact that they don't know!!

Then tell me how it be effective than that, In srilanka major portion of electricity generate by hydro power and , U idiot dont know , power cant be generate and it only transform to another media...

Dude read AL physics will solve your problem

[dhanuFB15]

Let's look at a simplified scenario

If we consider a conventional car that does 10Kmpl and drive an average of 1000Km per month. That means 100 Liters of fuel. If we assume 95Oct at 131 LKR per liter, that would be 13,100 LKR.

If we assume the same user using a Hybrid that does 20Kmpl, he would use 50 liters of fuel at a cost of 6,550 LKR. This means that he will save 6,550LKR per month if he does 1,000Km per month.

Apply the same to someone who does 3,000Km per month and his savings would be 19,650 LKR. So, for someone who does a lot of driving, the savings do add up to a lot.

For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that purchase price is similar and that non hybrid system related servicing/repairs cost the same for the ICE and the hybrid.

Now if we assume a Hybrid specific repair comes up in 12 months for 100,000. The guy who did 1,000Km per month would have saved 6,550x12 = 78,600 to cover this repair. The guy who did 3,000Km per month would have saved 19,650x12=235,800 to cover the repair.

This is indeed an overly simplified view of this but this is where the higher mileage economy thought process comes from.

Nicely explain friend

Edited January 20, 2016 by dhanuFB15

[Hoonigan]

Yes, you are correct. Higher millage economy is the very basic concept of hybrid.

I have added one more thing in my post.

If I mention it again,

In Sri Lankan context, (thanks to the tax system), if some body (who has lower usage as 10km per day) intends to buy a new car (though there are several used comfortable ICE cars available in the market for low price), also will not loose due to saving from capital investment.

Agreed, if one would insist on a new car, the choices available considered with the bells and whistles, would lean towards a hybrid.

Regarding the savings from capital investment, the current market seems to deviate from the old days where a car could be considered an investment(and most Toyotas and Nissans proved to be appreciating assets). I haven't done any research on this but I would assume that a subsequent buyer would discount the price with possible repairs to the hybrid system. Any savings on initial purchase can possibly go poof when selling it on (edit: more so than a conventional car)?

Edited January 20, 2016 by Hoonigan

[gayanath]

Agreed, if one would insist on a new car, the choices available considered with the bells and whistles, would lean towards a hybrid.

Regarding the savings from capital investment, the current market seems to deviate from the old days where a car could be considered an investment(and most Toyotas and Nissans proved to be appreciating assets). I haven't done any research on this but I would assume that a subsequent buyer would discount the price with possible repairs to the hybrid system. Any savings on initial purchase can possibly go poof when selling it on (edit: more so than a conventional car)?

A car could be a appreciating asset is no longer valid now for cars above 20 laks (2 Million) if you buy a B/new or unregistered car, otherwise any major tax change happened.

[Hoonigan]

A car could be a appreciating asset is no longer valid now for cars above 20 laks (2 Million) if you buy a B/new or unregistered car, otherwise any major tax change happened.

That was my point. Any car bought brand new/unregistered will depreciate in value and will be a loss the first owner will have to bear.

What I wanted to point out was that even if you buy a hybrid at a lower price point due to tax benefits, you might end up losing more money selling it compared to how much you would have lost if you bought a conventional car.

When buying a conventional car, we look at possible immediate repairs like timing belt replacement, suspension repairs etc. The sale price for a specific car would be negotiate based on these. With a hybrid, all these are still applicable and has the hybrid system specific repairs to consider, which would possibly drive the price down. (again, this is just an assumption based on what I feel is a logical trail of thought when buying a used car)

[RViji]

You cannot take 20% to 25% from a petrol vehicle and 35% from diesel. This is the maximum value can be obtain from engine. If you run a generator from ICE engine, then you could obtain this value bec it will operate on highest efficient point. When it run a car, most of the time it will operate in inefficient point. So the actual value could be less than 10% for petrol and likewise for diesel too. That's why hybrid is more efficient than non-hybrid because it tries to operate in highest efficient point with battery as a energy buffer.

At electricity generation, combine cycle power plant (which are having diesel gas turbines) operates theoretically around 55% and above. Practically in our case 48-50%.

If you need any more detail, I could give more.

Mate,did you learn automobile engineering 50 years ago when carbeurators and mechanical pumps were doing the engine controlling instead of electronics?

GDI (Gasoline Direct Injection) with Turbocharging,stoichiometric air/fuel ratio and Idle-stop increase the efficiency of the engines equipped with up to 35%.

Modern turbo-diesel engines are using electronically controlled, common-rail fuel injection, that increases the efficiency up to 50% with the help of variable geometry turbo this also increases the engines' torque at low engine speeds (1200-1800RPM).

All this without compromising the Driving Dynamics or safety like your Prias or Ackua.

[gayanath]

Mate,did you learn automobile engineering 50 years ago when carbeurators and mechanical pumps were doing the engine controlling instead of electronics?

GDI (Gasoline Direct Injection) with Turbocharging,stoichiometric air/fuel ratio and Idle-stop increase the efficiency of the engines equipped with up to 35%.

Modern turbo-diesel engines are using electronically controlled, common-rail fuel injection, that increases the efficiency up to 50% with the help of variable geometry turbo this also increases the engines' torque at low engine speeds (1200-1800RPM).

All this without compromising the Driving Dynamics or safety like your Prias or Ackua.

Could you give some example vehicle models you referred which could be comparable with Prius or Aqua for proper analysis?

[RViji]

Could you give some example vehicle models you referred which could be comparable with Prius or Aqua for proper analysis?

Dude,do your research by yourself before looking down on non-hybrid technologies. All European,US models of even japanese carmakers come with these new technologies as standard.Mazda Sky-activ,Ford-eco boost ,VW TDi, Mercedes CDI technologies are some examples..without these they cannot pass the strict emissions regulations like CARB or EURO6. Much more efficient and cleaner than your Noroccholai coal power plant using 50years old chinese technology to power the Nissan Leaves.

Edited January 20, 2016 by RViji