Engine start up failure

[Ted]

Hi all,

My car does not start. I did nothing to the engine and electrical related to engine. What I did was just repaired loosen right side power mirror and also power shutter switch buttons. I tested power mirror several times ( 10 times max). The day after I tried to start the car and it started for the first time giving rpm dying. ( 300 to 650 again 650 to 300 again 650 agsin 300 and stopped). 

Then it did not start at all even like above way. I recharged the battery still issue exists. When I switch on the car, crank is starting very very slowly and dash board blinks. When the key is kept engine start position, engine behaves like above just two ir three times and then even crank is not moving. 

Please advice. I am in a miserable situation. 

[raveeJaya]

  On 11/6/2017 at 6:18 AM, Ted said:

Hi all,

My car does not start. I did nothing to the engine and electrical related to engine. What I did was just repaired loosen right side power mirror and also power shutter switch buttons. I tested power mirror several times ( 10 times max). The day after I tried to start the car and it started for the first time giving rpm dying. ( 300 to 650 again 650 to 300 again 650 agsin 300 and stopped). 

Then it did not start at all even like above way. I recharged the battery still issue exists. When I switch on the car, crank is starting very very slowly and dash board blinks. When the key is kept engine start position, engine behaves like above just two ir three times and then even crank is not moving. 

Please advice. I am in a miserable situation. 

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Could it be a short circuit due to the repair you did ?. Have you checked the status of the battery is it an old one ?

Edited November 6, 2017 by raveeJaya

[The Stig]

Did you try to jump start the car or connect a different battery ?

Dd you remove the battery terminals during your repair  and what is your car ?

[Rumesh88]

Immediately after a few attempts to crank check if the battery terminals are hot. Check the fuse box too. If you have a meter check the battery voltage with and without headlights on. If the voltage drops immediately by a volt or so then you have a bad battery. Or else with the engine off check if the dome light flicker when you switch on  the headlight.

[Ted]

  On 11/6/2017 at 7:35 AM, The Stig said:

Did you try to jump start the car or connect a different battery ?

Dd you remove the battery terminals during your repair  and what is your car ?

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I romoved bat terminals during repair. I took another bat not jump starter. Carina at 192=

[Twin Turbo]

Clean the battery posts and terminals and refit.Fit a charger and charge tyhe battery, if it fails, you might need a new battery,..

Good luck. !

TT

Edited November 6, 2017 by Twin Turbo

[Rumesh88]

If you tried another battery and still the engine stalled  it could be due to a vacuum leak into the intake manifold. Check all the vacuum hoses connected to intake manifold.

 

[Ted]

Hi Thanks for the comments I tried following but unfortunately still the problem exists...

1) checked for short circuit ( measured amp through +ve to negative bat, when ignition off No short circuit. ( 150mA drawn when door is open, door is closes 10mA).

2) Replaced a new battery.

3) checked all the fuses and relays. All are OKAY.

4) checked spark occures. Used a spared spark plug and watched for sparks. It gave sparks when start up try.

5) engine roters when Switched to START but not starts.

6) Checked starter motor voltage when start up trying. It gave 10v. 

7) Checked bat voltage when start up trying. It gave 11v.

8) Checked the fuel pump. When Fb and T1 terminals in the diag. Socket are shorted, I heared the sweeezz noise from the fuel flow.

I checked all above still not starting. Any expert advice please....

[Davy]

According to what you've done already, it looks like your charging system is working and since you're battery is new, I assume we're getting a sufficient current to the starter. So you now need to verify that the three main elements for an engine to start, is being supplied consistently - Air, Fuel and Spark.

I think you first should do a diagnostic scan to make sure your crankshaft and camshaft position sensors are working. Those two sensors work in harmony to ensure each injector squirts out fuel and that each cylinder gets a spark when at the right moment. On most Japanese cars I've taken apart, the crank sensor controls the spark and the cam sensor controls fuel delivery. If you see a P0335 or a P0340, then you've found your issue.

If you don't have the equipment to carry out a diagnostic scan, you can manually check each injector to see if they're squirting out fuel. One method is to place a probe (or screwdriver) on each injector and placing your ear on the other end to listen to a consistent ticking sound (injector opening and closing), while someone else cranks the engine. The other is to remove connector from each injector and do a signal test.  The last (and messy) way to do it is to partially remove the fuel rail, disconnect all spark plugs and visually inspect fuel being squirted out out of each injector while carefully holding the fuel rail, all injectors pointing into their respective cylinder.

I've based this response based on what you've found so far and have assumed that your ignition coils and spark plugs are okay.

Also note that although the fuel pump is buzzing when the ignition is switched on, it might not be maintaining proper fuel pressure. To check this, you need a fuel pressure gauge and hook it up to the fuel rail and check if the reading (ON, crank, idle) are within range.

[Ted]

Hi

  On 11/13/2017 at 12:22 AM, Davy said:

According to what you've done already, it looks like your charging system is working and since you're battery is new, I assume we're getting a sufficient current to the starter. So you now need to verify that the three main elements for an engine to start, is being supplied consistently - Air, Fuel and Spark.

I think you first should do a diagnostic scan to make sure your crankshaft and camshaft position sensors are working. Those two sensors work in harmony to ensure each injector squirts out fuel and that each cylinder gets a spark when at the right moment. On most Japanese cars I've taken apart, the crank sensor controls the spark and the cam sensor controls fuel delivery. If you see a P0335 or a P0340, then you've found your issue.

If you don't have the equipment to carry out a diagnostic scan, you can manually check each injector to see if they're squirting out fuel. One method is to place a probe (or screwdriver) on each injector and placing your ear on the other end to listen to a consistent ticking sound (injector opening and closing), while someone else cranks the engine. The other is to remove connector from each injector and do a signal test.  The last (and messy) way to do it is to partially remove the fuel rail, disconnect all spark plugs and visually inspect fuel being squirted out out of each injector while carefully holding the fuel rail, all injectors pointing into their respective cylinder.

I've based this response based on what you've found so far and have assumed that your ignition coils and spark plugs are okay.

Also note that although the fuel pump is buzzing when the ignition is switched on, it might not be maintaining proper fuel pressure. To check this, you need a fuel pressure gauge and hook it up to the fuel rail and check if the reading (ON, crank, idle) are within range.

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Hi.. thanks for your advices will check...

[Ted]

  On 11/13/2017 at 12:22 AM, Davy said:

According to what you've done already, it looks like your charging system is working and since you're battery is new, I assume we're getting a sufficient current to the starter. So you now need to verify that the three main elements for an engine to start, is being supplied consistently - Air, Fuel and Spark.

I think you first should do a diagnostic scan to make sure your crankshaft and camshaft position sensors are working. Those two sensors work in harmony to ensure each injector squirts out fuel and that each cylinder gets a spark when at the right moment. On most Japanese cars I've taken apart, the crank sensor controls the spark and the cam sensor controls fuel delivery. If you see a P0335 or a P0340, then you've found your issue.

If you don't have the equipment to carry out a diagnostic scan, you can manually check each injector to see if they're squirting out fuel. One method is to place a probe (or screwdriver) on each injector and placing your ear on the other end to listen to a consistent ticking sound (injector opening and closing), while someone else cranks the engine. The other is to remove connector from each injector and do a signal test.  The last (and messy) way to do it is to partially remove the fuel rail, disconnect all spark plugs and visually inspect fuel being squirted out out of each injector while carefully holding the fuel rail, all injectors pointing into their respective cylinder.

I've based this response based on what you've found so far and have assumed that your ignition coils and spark plugs are okay.

Also note that although the fuel pump is buzzing when the ignition is switched on, it might not be maintaining proper fuel pressure. To check this, you need a fuel pressure gauge and hook it up to the fuel rail and check if the reading (ON, crank, idle) are within range.

Expand  

Hi one question.. can i test injector pulses using a normal incandecent bulb? If so could you please let me know the Wattage of such a normal bulb? ( My car manual fuel injector resistance is 13.4 to 14.2 Ohm).  Wont it harm the ecu transistor? 

[Davy]

  On 11/13/2017 at 5:01 AM, Ted said:

Hi one question.. can i test injector pulses using a normal incandecent bulb? If so could you please let me know the Wattage of such a normal bulb? ( My car manual fuel injector resistance is 13.4 to 14.2 Ohm).  Wont it harm the ecu transistor? 

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I wouldn't recommend connecting a random bulb to the injector connector. There are bulb kits out there specially made to do what you're trying to achieve. They have the correct resistance and make sure you don't fry your ECU.

If I were you, I'd do the first method where you use a long flathead screwdriver to touch each injector while listening to the ticking noise. If you hear something unusual there, then you can move on to removing them. Also, since you know the resistance range of the injectors, you can use a multimeter to check if any one of them have an out of range resistance.

[The Stig]

  On 11/13/2017 at 5:32 AM, Davy said:

I wouldn't recommend connecting a random bulb to the injector connector. There are bulb kits out there specially made to do what you're trying to achieve. They have the correct resistance and make sure you don't fry your ECU.

If I were you, I'd do the first method where you use a long flathead screwdriver to touch each injector while listening to the ticking noise. If you hear something unusual there, then you can move on to removing them. Also, since you know the resistance range of the injectors, you can use a multimeter to check if any one of them have an out of range resistance.

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This would all be much easier if you can just plug in an OBD tool (or get someone from a garage that has one) and see the following parameters;

 

Fuel system status / Fuel pump status

Fuel pressure (this will tell you if the petrol pump is working fine)

Fuel pulse width (this will tell you the duration injectors stay open)

Short term fuel trim (this will tell you fuel usage on open loop/ cold start )

Long term fuel trim (this will tell you fuel usage on closed loop/ at operating temperature - if you can get the car to run this long)

Spark advance / Timing advance / Ignition advance (based on the car this can be named differently, but it will tell you when your spark plugs are firing. At idle it should be negative 16 ish degrees. on load should go to the positive side)

[Ted]

  On 11/13/2017 at 8:55 AM, The Stig said:

 

This would all be much easier if you can just plug in an OBD tool (or get someone from a garage that has one) and see the following parameters;

 

Fuel system status / Fuel pump status

Fuel pressure (this will tell you if the petrol pump is working fine)

Fuel pulse width (this will tell you the duration injectors stay open)

Short term fuel trim (this will tell you fuel usage on open loop/ cold start )

Long term fuel trim (this will tell you fuel usage on closed loop/ at operating temperature - if you can get the car to run this long)

Spark advance / Timing advance / Ignition advance (based on the car this can be named differently, but it will tell you when your spark plugs are firing. At idle it should be negative 16 ish degrees. on load should go to the positive side)

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Unfortunately mine is OBDI. Still trying. We'l see.

[The Stig]

  On 11/13/2017 at 3:20 PM, Ted said:

Unfortunately mine is OBDI. Still trying. We'l see.

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There are adapters, places that scan vehicle will have them

[Davy]

  On 11/13/2017 at 8:55 AM, The Stig said:

 

This would all be much easier if you can just plug in an OBD tool (or get someone from a garage that has one) and see the following parameters;

 

Fuel system status / Fuel pump status

Fuel pressure (this will tell you if the petrol pump is working fine)

Fuel pulse width (this will tell you the duration injectors stay open)

Short term fuel trim (this will tell you fuel usage on open loop/ cold start )

Long term fuel trim (this will tell you fuel usage on closed loop/ at operating temperature - if you can get the car to run this long)

Spark advance / Timing advance / Ignition advance (based on the car this can be named differently, but it will tell you when your spark plugs are firing. At idle it should be negative 16 ish degrees. on load should go to the positive side)

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For sure. The issue is that the car isn't starting up at all, and my opinion is that all the low level parameters that you've mentioned can be looked into once the engine is fired up. For now, I think OP should just concentrate on getting the engine running - even misfiring and coughing up like an old grandpa.  

Also, from memory, I think OBD 1 doesn't have most of what OBD II has like short term and long term fuel trim. I do remember it having injector pulse width and ignition advance.

[The Stig]

  On 11/16/2017 at 3:46 AM, Davy said:

For sure. The issue is that the car isn't starting up at all, and my opinion is that all the low level parameters that you've mentioned can be looked into once the engine is fired up. For now, I think OP should just concentrate on getting the engine running - even misfiring and coughing up like an old grandpa. [emoji4] 
Also, from memory, I think OBD 1 doesn't have most of what OBD II has like short term and long term fuel trim. I do remember it having injector pulse width and ignition advance.

You might be right.
But op said the car starts and the stalls. So if his scanner can record the data parameters we should be able to figuee something out.
Some post 1996 cars actually ran on obd2 protocols in the ecu but used obd1 proprietary connectors. I was hoping for a situation like this.

Sent from my D6503 using AutoLanka.com mobile app

[Ted]

  On 11/13/2017 at 5:32 AM, Davy said:

 

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Hi davy,

I checked each injector with a flat screw drive and I heard the ticking noise. But enginee does not start. Does it mean that signal from ECU is coming to injector? I also checked for sparks with a spare spark plug. I saw sparks of each spark plug. (I dunno whether it is strong or not but it sparks). Also fuel pump buzzer is heard still. There is only left is to check for fuel. Am I ryt? If so could you please let me know how to check? 

P.S. - bolt in the fuel rail was slightly loosen Fuel came out with a considerable preassure.. 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Ted

[Davy]

  On 11/18/2017 at 3:45 AM, Ted said:

Hi davy,

I checked each injector with a flat screw drive and I heard the ticking noise. But enginee does not start. Does it mean that signal from ECU is coming to injector? I also checked for sparks with a spare spark plug. I saw sparks of each spark plug. (I dunno whether it is strong or not but it sparks). Also fuel pump buzzer is heard still. There is only left is to check for fuel. Am I ryt? If so could you please let me know how to check? 

P.S. - bolt in the fuel rail was slightly loosen Fuel came out with a considerable preassure.. 

Expand  

While the ticking noise means the injectors are opening and closing, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're doing so at the right time and stays open the correct duration. This is why a diagnostic scan is necessary as I've mentioned above. 

Did you check if the distributor is OK and ignition timing is proper?

[Ted]

  On 11/20/2017 at 3:04 AM, Davy said:

While the ticking noise means the injectors are opening and closing, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're doing so at the right time and stays open the correct duration. This is why a diagnostic scan is necessary as I've mentioned above. 

Did you check if the distributor is OK and ignition timing is proper?

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Hi Davy and my other friends,

After checking spark, fuel pump and injector( ecu signal and resistance) I found all are okay. Then I removed the throttle body to check throttle position sensor. It was working fine. Only problem was 0.4mm/0.9mm requirement ( As in my another thread published on throttle position and IACV setting for minimum air flow idling). 

However I installed the throttle body and also fixed the air filter and when I tried to start up the car was started. 

Then I adjusted the idle rpm toa nominal value ( since I had set up 0.4mm/0.9mm requirement when I removed the thottle body which gave 1.2k rpm at idleling.)

Car is normal now. But today when I started and pull to reverse gear ( my car is automatic), suddenly engine stalled. I again started and this happened twice. 

After that I started for the forth time and reverse gear problem was okay at that moment. I also drove the car in town limits in traffic engine was in idling in D position and car was not stopped. 

Anyone who are expert on or experienced on this issue?

[Davy]

  On 11/25/2017 at 7:21 AM, Ted said:

Hi Davy and my other friends,

After checking spark, fuel pump and injector( ecu signal and resistance) I found all are okay. Then I removed the throttle body to check throttle position sensor. It was working fine. Only problem was 0.4mm/0.9mm requirement ( As in my another thread published on throttle position and IACV setting for minimum air flow idling). 

However I installed the throttle body and also fixed the air filter and when I tried to start up the car was started. 

Then I adjusted the idle rpm toa nominal value ( since I had set up 0.4mm/0.9mm requirement when I removed the thottle body which gave 1.2k rpm at idleling.)

Car is normal now. But today when I started and pull to reverse gear ( my car is automatic), suddenly engine stalled. I again started and this happened twice. 

After that I started for the forth time and reverse gear problem was okay at that moment. I also drove the car in town limits in traffic engine was in idling in D position and car was not stopped. 

Anyone who are expert on or experienced on this issue?

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Sorry for the delay in responding. Couldn't login for a couple of days.

Glad that you got the car running. Perseverance sure does pay off.  

As for the stalling issue when you put it into gear, make sure you have plugged in all your vacuum lines. That's the first place I'd start from. I'm not sure if this has a MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor, but if it does, get that checked/cleaned as well. The MAP sends a signal to the ECU to adjust idle RPM based on the vacuum in the intake manifold which changes as load increases (i.e when you shift into gear).