Break Issue

akboselk · August 16, 2013

Hi all,

My car is a suzuki swift and has ABS ( M/T)

last week when I was slow moving traffic ( so regularly clutch / break / Stop / Go on 1 st gear ) i had below issue

few occasions I felt that the Break is very hevy to push all the way down and break not apply correctly. Also on a small hill, it happened and actually Car roll back little more although I pushed the break , Then I pulled the hand break and stop the vehicle,

1) Is this normal for ABS when use clutch more offen ? ( Note: Sometime clutch cannot completely release because traffic is moving very slowly)

Or

2) Any fault with breaking system ? ( However break fluid fine and no dashboard indicators for warning)

Thanks for all

Rumesh88 · August 16, 2013

Instead of trying to blame on your ABS why not try the following. This note I wrote sometime back in reply to a thread with same caption (search with correct spelling).

1. before you start the engine after being parked for sometime, press the brake pedal hard a few times. Pedal stroke (travel) should be the same each time. If not you have a probable issue with the master pump like washers.
2. With the pedal depressed start the engine, the pedal should go down slightly. This is the normal operation. If not you have a issue with booster most likely a vacuum leak or the vacuum not reaching the booster.
3. Release the pedal and allow the engine to run idle for a minute of so and then depress the pedal fully and switch off the engine while keeping the pedal depressed with constant force (better do it barefoot). Now hold it. The pedal stroke should remain at the same position (meaning it should not come up)for about 30 seconds. if the pedal comes up immediately you have a leak in the booster.
4. Release the pedal and start the engine again for about 2 min and switch off. The press the pedal consecutively for about five times. During first few strokes the pedal should come up progressively each time. This again confirms if the booster is airtight. If t comes up on the first stroke you have a leaky booster.

I guess is that the problem could be with your booster or its vacuum line.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Rumesh88

hrm · August 16, 2013

I also had a similar issue. Leak in the break booster was the cause.

akboselk · August 16, 2013

thanks for valueble replies.

In this matter No dashboard warning ? Isn't it ?

akboselk · August 17, 2013

On 8/16/2013 at 10:40 AM, Rumesh88 said:
Instead of trying to blame on your ABS why not try the following. This note I wrote sometime back in reply to a thread with same caption (search with correct spelling).
1. before you start the engine after being parked for sometime, press the brake pedal hard a few times. Pedal stroke (travel) should be the same each time. If not you have a probable issue with the master pump like washers.

2. With the pedal depressed start the engine, the pedal should go down slightly. This is the normal operation. If not you have a issue with booster most likely a vacuum leak or the vacuum not reaching the booster.

3. Release the pedal and allow the engine to run idle for a minute of so and then depress the pedal fully and switch off the engine while keeping the pedal depressed with constant force (better do it barefoot). Now hold it. The pedal stroke should remain at the same position (meaning it should not come up)for about 30 seconds. if the pedal comes up immediately you have a leak in the booster.

4. Release the pedal and start the engine again for about 2 min and switch off. The press the pedal consecutively for about five times. During first few strokes the pedal should come up progressively each time. This again confirms if the booster is airtight. If t comes up on the first stroke you have a leaky booster.

I guess is that the problem could be with your booster or its vacuum line.

Thanks Rumesh88

Done above things and found no problem.

Also I've searched the net and found below forum , according to it ( Same issue I have ) , this car work like this. Still not sure it is a bug or default design

http://gearheads.in/showthread.php?10176-Swift-ZXI-Braking-Concern-Now-Fixed-with-ECU-Upgrade

NRX · August 17, 2013

Is this an Indian swift, if then it could be an issue with the ECU, I read somewhere that a firmware update solves the issue. The issue is connected to idle/low RPM where the generated vacuum is not enough for proper braking operation.

NRX · August 17, 2013

On 8/16/2013 at 10:40 AM, Rumesh88 said:
Instead of trying to blame on your ABS why not try the following. This note I wrote sometime back in reply to a thread with same caption (search with correct spelling).
1. before you start the engine after being parked for sometime, press the brake pedal hard a few times. Pedal stroke (travel) should be the same each time. If not you have a probable issue with the master pump like washers.

2. With the pedal depressed start the engine, the pedal should go down slightly. This is the normal operation. If not you have a issue with booster most likely a vacuum leak or the vacuum not reaching the booster.

3. Release the pedal and allow the engine to run idle for a minute of so and then depress the pedal fully and switch off the engine while keeping the pedal depressed with constant force (better do it barefoot). Now hold it. The pedal stroke should remain at the same position (meaning it should not come up)for about 30 seconds. if the pedal comes up immediately you have a leak in the booster.

4. Release the pedal and start the engine again for about 2 min and switch off. The press the pedal consecutively for about five times. During first few strokes the pedal should come up progressively each time. This again confirms if the booster is airtight. If t comes up on the first stroke you have a leaky booster.

I guess is that the problem could be with your booster or its vacuum line.

Rumesh. If the pedal works exactly the same in Step 1 and Step 4 and the master pump is good how is it possible ?

akboselk · August 17, 2013

On 8/17/2013 at 8:14 AM, NRX said:
Is this an Indian swift, if then it could be an issue with the ECU, I read somewhere that a firmware update solves the issue. The issue is connected to idle/low RPM where the generated vacuum is not enough for proper braking operation.

Yes, you are correct.

I found the article as below and this is issue with this model, So I going to call to A*W. Think this will help for all owners who has this model

http://www.cartoq.com/maruti-fixes-swift-braking-problem/

Edited August 17, 2013 by akboselk

Rumesh88 · August 17, 2013

On 8/17/2013 at 7:28 AM, akboselk said:
Thanks Rumesh88
Done above things and found no problem.

Also I've searched the net and found below forum , according to it ( Same issue I have ) , this car work like this. Still not sure it is a bug or default design

http://gearheads.in/showthread.php?10176-Swift-ZXI-Braking-Concern-Now-Fixed-with-ECU-Upgrade

OK. If so the brake system is OK and the problem is elsewhere as NRX said.

On 8/17/2013 at 8:27 AM, NRX said:
Rumesh. If the pedal works exactly the same in Step 1 and Step 4 and the master pump is good how is it possible ?

Step 1 and Step 4 are not the same. Step 1 is after the car had been parked for sometime like couple of hours so that there would not be enough vacuum trapped in the booster. Step 4 on the other hand is immediately after stopping the engine and the residual vacuum still remain inside. Hope it is clear.

NRX · August 17, 2013

On 8/17/2013 at 9:45 AM, Rumesh88 said:
OK. If so the brake system is OK and the problem is elsewhere as NRX said.
Step 1 and Step 4 are not the same. Step 1 is after the car had been parked for sometime like couple of hours so that there would not be enough vacuum trapped in the booster. Step 4 on the other hand is immediately after stopping the engine and the residual vacuum still remain inside. Hope it is clear.

Sorry for the confusion Rumesh. In my car #4 works as you said, but for #1 the pedal behaves as same as the pedal in #4... ie: in both step #1 and #4 the pedal comes up progressively and then hardens..

Charith H Jayasinghe · August 19, 2013

Rumesh, honestly asking cause I don't know.what does it mean by "Break booster"? is it a mechanism/ a technique or is it a instrument?. it was bit difficult to understand the description in the user guide. Anyway I works as you've mentioned

Davy · August 20, 2013

On 8/19/2013 at 5:55 PM, Charith H Jayasinghe said:
Rumesh, honestly asking cause I don't know.what does it mean by "Break booster"? is it a mechanism/ a technique or is it a instrument?. it was bit difficult to understand the description in the user guide. Anyway I works as you've mentioned

Booster is just another name for the Vacuum Servo.

NRX · August 20, 2013

On 8/19/2013 at 5:55 PM, Charith H Jayasinghe said:
Rumesh, honestly asking cause I don't know.what does it mean by "Break booster"? is it a mechanism/ a technique or is it a instrument?. it was bit difficult to understand the description in the user guide. Anyway I works as you've mentioned

Charith, it's an instrument used to multiply the brake force you apply with the foot. It basically has 2 chambers one of which contains vacuum (intake vacuum from engine), and the other chamber contains normal air with atmospheric pressure ( normal air gets in this chamber when you press the brake pedal). The pressure difference of this causes the diaphragm which separates this 2 chambers to travel to the vacuum side of the booster. This diaphragm is connected to your brake pedal/rod and to the master cylinder which in turn eases off the pressure you have to apply on the pedal. Since it has boosted the pressure you have applied with your foot it is called a brake booster.

HardHat · August 20, 2013

On 8/16/2013 at 10:40 AM, Rumesh88 said:

1. before you start the engine after being parked for sometime, press the brake pedal hard a few times. Pedal stroke (travel) should be the same each time. If not you have a probable issue with the master pump like washers.

.

Rumesh,

at this step if the pedal becomes harder and harder to press at each consecutive stroke (from stroke 2 onwards), does it mean there is an issue with the booster?

NRX · August 20, 2013

On 8/20/2013 at 5:25 AM, HardHat said:
Rumesh,
at this step if the pedal becomes harder and harder to press at each consecutive stroke (from stroke 2 onwards), does it mean there is an issue with the booster?

I have the same question as mine also behaves as yours

Nimz77 · August 24, 2013

On 8/16/2013 at 10:40 AM, Rumesh88 said:
Instead of trying to blame on your ABS why not try the following. This note I wrote sometime back in reply to a thread with same caption (search with correct spelling).
1. before you start the engine after being parked for sometime, press the brake pedal hard a few times. Pedal stroke (travel) should be the same each time. If not you have a probable issue with the master pump like washers.

2. With the pedal depressed start the engine, the pedal should go down slightly. This is the normal operation. If not you have a issue with booster most likely a vacuum leak or the vacuum not reaching the booster.

3. Release the pedal and allow the engine to run idle for a minute of so and then depress the pedal fully and switch off the engine while keeping the pedal depressed with constant force (better do it barefoot). Now hold it. The pedal stroke should remain at the same position (meaning it should not come up)for about 30 seconds. if the pedal comes up immediately you have a leak in the booster.

4. Release the pedal and start the engine again for about 2 min and switch off. The press the pedal consecutively for about five times. During first few strokes the pedal should come up progressively each time. This again confirms if the booster is airtight. If t comes up on the first stroke you have a leaky booster.

I guess is that the problem could be with your booster or its vacuum line.

could you please let us know how to test break on non ABS car also?

Rumesh88 · August 25, 2013

On 8/20/2013 at 5:25 AM, HardHat said:
Rumesh,
at this step if the pedal becomes harder and harder to press at each consecutive stroke (from stroke 2 onwards), does it mean there is an issue with the booster?

That first step is to see if there is a problem with brake washers but not to test the booster. It may become harder to press the pedal after each stroke but the travel should remain the same. Here we assume that there is no vacuum in the booster.