Need to try twice to ignite the engine when the engine is cool.

[Snfonseka]

Hi,

My car is a Viva Elite (7 years old and mileage is 57,000 Km). Few days after the engine tuneup, I have noticed that I have try twice (with the key) to ignite the engine when the engine is cool. When the engine is cool, first attempt always fails and only in the second attempt engine ignites. However this doesn't occur when the engine is hot. When the engine is hot, engine starts properly with the first attempt. Any advice regarding the matter is highly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[Kavvz]

3 hours ago, Snfonseka said:

Hi,

My car is a Viva Elite (7 years old and mileage is 57,000 Km). Few days after the engine tuneup, I have noticed that I have try twice (with the key) to ignite the engine when the engine is cool. When the engine is cool, first attempt always fails and only in the second attempt engine ignites. However this doesn't occur when the engine is hot. When the engine is hot, engine starts properly with the first attempt. Any advice regarding the matter is highly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Could be a fuel starvation issue (fuel pressure check valve issue, bad fuel-air ratio in the mixture etc.) I would start by checking whether you have a dirty air filter as its the easiest point to start. And I am sure more mechanically savvy members here will have better suggestions for you on how to proceed if its not something as simple as a dirty air filter...

But what I'm really curious about is:  @Snfonseka you say your car was just 'tuned' ? Where? And what exactly did they do as part of this process? I don't know much about the Viva Elite in particular, but 'tuning' such a car seems unusual...

Edited July 5, 2020 by Kavvz

[AVANTE]

7 minutes ago, Kavvz said:

Could be a fuel starvation issue ( fuel pressure check valve issue, bad fuel-air ratio in the mixture etc.) I would start by checking whether you have a dirty air filter as its the easiest point to start.

But @Snfonseka you say your car was just 'tuned' ? As in what exactly did they do? I don't know much about the Viva Elite in particular, but 'tuning' such a car seems unusual...

I also second fuel starvation issue. I have experience with this problem too. 

Its usually check valve or could be a fault with the ignition coils. Do you experience any misfires or rough idle? 

If so, check with cleaning the IAC (Idle Air Control Valve) & PCV (Positive Crank Ventilation Valve) too. Those two are usually not covered in an 'engine tuneup'.

Were you observing the tune up guys do the job or did you leave the car by itself at the garage? Cause some cars have fragile components in the fuel system that should be handled with care. 

[Kavvz]

16 minutes ago, AVANTE said:

I also second fuel starvation issue. I have experience with this problem too. 

Its usually check valve or could be a fault with the ignition coils. Do you experience any misfires or rough idle? 

If so, check with cleaning the IAC (Idle Air Control Valve) & PCV (Positive Crank Ventilation Valve) too. Those two are usually not covered in an 'engine tuneup'.

Were you observing the tune up guys do the job or did you leave the car by itself at the garage? Cause some cars have fragile components in the fuel system that should be handled with care. 

Hi @AVANTE you seem to have a bit of experience with this 'engine tune-up' business too!

What exactly do they do as part of this tune up? Just tap at the the engine a bit and look to see if the air flow sensor needs any cleaning?   Jokes aside, I haven't experienced this, and it seems like a bit of a money grab !

Am curious to hear what an 'engine tune-up' entails now that the days of carburettors are long gone...

Edited July 5, 2020 by Kavvz

[AVANTE]

29 minutes ago, Kavvz said:

Hi @AVANTE you seem to have a bit of experience with this 'engine tune-up' business too!

What exactly do they do as part of this tune up? Just tap at the the engine a bit and look to see if the air flow sensor needs any cleaning?   Jokes aside, I haven't experienced this, and it seems like a bit of a money grab !

Am curious to hear what an 'engine tune-up' entails now that the days of carburettors are long gone...

Hi hi, it's like this.

They clean the Throttle body fully inside out. 

Clean the injectors using a specific gadget that tests the flow rate and using an injector cleaner liquid like the Wurth product. 

Clean the spark plugs throughly using this gadget that vibrates at a high frequency while the plugs are drowned in a cleaner liquid (atleast the Place I got it done did so) 

Clean the fuel pump and filter and check the hoses and fuel lines. 

IIRC they clean the injector rail too. 

Finally they adjust the idle rpm if it needs to be adjusted. 

But I find it weird they don't touch the PCV, EGR, EVAP and IACV systems which are equally important. Maybe some places do but mostly not. 

Whether it's a garage or DIY, we should get all the above mentioned components cleaned and checked once in a while (average every 3-4 years or 60k kilometers, really depends on how much the car is used). Not to mention our lankan fuel quality. I have heard of a Honda Fit GP1 that broke down one night nearby because the fuel filter got clogged. 

So while the question of whether it is a money grab depends on the price charged and quality of work. But other than removing the fuel tank to access the fuel pump in some models, everything else can be done at home given that owner is handy and has the necessary products. 

[Kavvz]

1 hour ago, AVANTE said:

Hi hi, it's like this.

They clean the Throttle body fully inside out. 

Clean the injectors using a specific gadget that tests the flow rate and using an injector cleaner liquid like the Wurth product. 

Clean the spark plugs throughly using this gadget that vibrates at a high frequency while the plugs are drowned in a cleaner liquid (atleast the Place I got it done did so) 

Clean the fuel pump and filter and check the hoses and fuel lines. 

IIRC they clean the injector rail too. 

Finally they adjust the idle rpm if it needs to be adjusted. 

But I find it weird they don't touch the PCV, EGR, EVAP and IACV systems which are equally important. Maybe some places do but mostly not. 

Whether it's a garage or DIY, we should get all the above mentioned components cleaned and checked once in a while (average every 3-4 years or 60k kilometers, really depends on how much the car is used). Not to mention our lankan fuel quality. I have heard of a Honda Fit GP1 that broke down one night nearby because the fuel filter got clogged. 

So while the question of whether it is a money grab depends on the price charged and quality of work. But other than removing the fuel tank to access the fuel pump in some models, everything else can be done at home given that owner is handy and has the necessary products. 

Wow. Quite an extensive list of stuff that is done...hmm I guess it has merit on an older engine but its not something I would ever consider doing on a car that is working well without issues, and especially not something I would consider on a newer car that has run less than 100k. 

Anways that's just my opinion and really I'm not the best source of info when it comes to these things...

But eitherway thanks for the write-up! Very informative! ?

Edited July 5, 2020 by Kavvz

[AVANTE]

9 hours ago, Kavvz said:

Wow. Quite an extensive list of stuff that is done...hmm I guess it has merit on an older engine but its not something I would ever consider doing on a car that is working well without issues, and especially not something I would consider on a newer car that has run less than 100k. 

Anways that's just my opinion and really I'm not the best source of info when it comes to these things...

But eitherway thanks for the write-up! Very informative! ?

Yeah I agree, not needed for a new car that works well. 

Cars that have passed the 10 year mark will find it useful though. 

[Davy]

Sounds like a fuel pressure problem like others have mentioned. Do the following test just before a cold start to confirm:

1. Turn the ignition to the ON position (don't start)

2. Leave it on for 30 seconds

3. Start the car

If it starts first time, then it's definitely a fuel pressure issue. 

 

 

[Snfonseka]

12 hours ago, AVANTE said:

I also second fuel starvation issue. I have experience with this problem too. 

Its usually check valve or could be a fault with the ignition coils. Do you experience any misfires or rough idle? 

If so, check with cleaning the IAC (Idle Air Control Valve) & PCV (Positive Crank Ventilation Valve) too. Those two are usually not covered in an 'engine tuneup'.

Were you observing the tune up guys do the job or did you leave the car by itself at the garage? Cause some cars have fragile components in the fuel system that should be handled with care. 

So far, no misfires or rough idle and no, unfortunately I wasn't observing. 

[Snfonseka]

1 hour ago, Davy said:

Sounds like a fuel pressure problem like others have mentioned. Do the following test just before a cold start to confirm:

1. Turn the ignition to the ON position (don't start)

2. Leave it on for 30 seconds

3. Start the car

If it starts first time, then it's definitely a fuel pressure issue. 

 

 

Thanks. I will check and update.