Greatest Automotive Nation?

[isurujosh]

Greatness is such a subjective thing, isn't it. So your choice is as good as mine. So please take some time out to vote for the greatest automotive nation in your book and state why.

I have included...

UK: This is my choice. More I read about great cars more I am inclined to believe that Brits are the best in building cars. Be it the Mclaren F1, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Lotus, Caterham, Aston Martin they all are very British and have some mystique greatness. Most other car makers in the world borrow expertise from british, sometimes eventhough the nameplate might read non-british the technology and philosophy really come from Britain. I recently even read that although Audi is renowned for 4WD quattro, the first 4WD cars were from Britain. But like all British car makers thay had not made profits and been forced to shut down. I don't think greateness has to be associated with "profits" so I vote Brit

Germany: Need I say more... Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, Audi, VW ... (Or eventhough Bugatti is really a French nameplate, I consider Veyron German more than any other)

Italy: Characterrised by the ever so raging and fierce battle between Farrari and Lambo.

Japan: They certainly make things perfect.

USA: I remain silent and let you decide.

France: Oh! they made the Bugatti Royale and they own the nameplate.

Sri Lanka: At the end of the day, we make the most out of the least . And how can I not give any choice for the Patriotic membership of our forum.

I hope I have not missed any other serious contender for this title. (PLZZZZ not India Ok!)

[Hola]

No vote for USA? pooh

[Supra_Natural]

The 45 Fire engine is the most modern unit and most economical model too. The 60 engine is older. And yeah I check with a few guys 350k seems like the price for a pre-facelift car.

And yes James Bond drove a Toyota 2000GT in "You only Live Twice".............but then he also drove that crappy Z3 in "Golden Eye". So occasionally 007 can loose his marbles. Oh btw he drove an Alpine in "Dr. No" I think.

I totally agree that apart from the few cars that Supra Natural mentioned that Japs can't design cars even when they copy. Mind you two of those cars were European designed.

As for considering the Americans.........Well the only thing they can claim credit is that Uncle Henry Ford started mass production.

In 1968 their cars may have pumped 250bhp but that more because their roads were wide open and fule was very cheap. But their technology has always been totally outdated when compared with European or Japanese. The Corvette V8 is still push rod for heaven sake!!! Morris Minor tech in 2007 when Europe is talking about camless engines.

er no, i think you'll find that the datsun 240Z was mainly an in house design...... although popularly credited to Goertz, he was only involved at the very early stages....... so the 2000GT is actually the only completely foreign design....

Ill grant that american technology is light years behind the europeans, but that again is because their country is MASSIVE, not all roads are great, and fuel quality is comparatively poor, so the cars have to be rugged and simple.... theires no denying that a 60's Alfa or Lancia was on a different level altogether when it came to technology, but ask them to put up with the duty cycle that the average american car went through, and they wouldn't last a month!!!!

and as for the Vette's engine.... yes it is a technological joke when compared to, say an F430's Motor, BUT that old pushrod lump can last for hundreds of thousands of hard driven miles, even with NO care..... try doing THAT to a quad cam, 40 valve, 9000 Redlined italian V8.... and it still delivers 400 + horses innit?

Im a europhile myself (I CHOSE a peugeot after all... knowing full well about the quirks), but i don't believe that great cars came ONLY from europe......

Edited February 21, 2007 by Supra_Natural

[isurujosh]

er no, i think you'll find that the datsun 240Z was mainly an in house design...... although popularly credited to Goertz, he was only involved at the very early stages....... so the 2000GT is actually the only completely foreign design....

Ill grant that american technology is light years behind the europeans, but that again is because their country is MASSIVE, not all roads are great, and fuel quality is comparatively poor, so the cars have to be rugged and simple.... theires no denying that a 60's Alfa or Lancia was on a different level altogether when it came to technology, but ask them to put up with the duty cycle that the average american car went through, and they wouldn't last a month!!!!

and as for the Vette's engine.... yes it is a technological joke when compared to, say an F430's Motor, BUT that old pushrod lump can last for hundreds of thousands of hard driven miles, even with NO care..... try doing THAT to a quad cam, 40 valve, 9000 Redlined italian V8.... and it still delivers 400 + horses innit?

Im a europhile myself (I CHOSE a peugeot after all... knowing full well about the quirks), but i don't believe that great cars came ONLY from europe......

hey is it da 240z dat was said to be styled after some jag? dunno abt durability of pushrods but they are good value for money and very very torquey (of course coz of larger displacement)

[GTAm]

hey is it da 240z dat was said to be styled after some jag? dunno abt durability of pushrods but they are good value for money and very very torquey (of course coz of larger displacement)

The E-type.

About the push rods that's just it. They are torquey because of the usual large capacity and long stroke. They just don't rev like a OHC for example. And they are heavy lumps and lack efficiency. As it's low tech its cheaper to make.

I like the Corvette C6 actually and if I lived in the US I might even buy one considering that bargain price/performance ratio. But it does not push the envelope further. And I might want something cutting edge soon.

I guess its a matter of taste and what you really want.

I mean its like lots of young folk still listen to Gold FM ! I like to be a bit more progressive in my choices,

[Devinda_Z]

so does that mean there are virtually ZERO modern production american cars with Cams??

is that why those large displacement volumes dont yield as much power as a Jap or Euro would with a similar capacity??

if its cutting edge - dare i suggest a US-Jap Lexus GS450h ?

[Supra_Natural]

The E-type.

About the push rods that's just it. They are torquey because of the usual large capacity and long stroke. They just don't rev like a OHC for example. And they are heavy lumps and lack efficiency. As it's low tech its cheaper to make.

I like the Corvette C6 actually and if I lived in the US I might even buy one considering that bargain price/performance ratio. But it does not push the envelope further. And I might want something cutting edge soon.

I guess its a matter of taste and what you really want.

I mean its like lots of young folk still listen to Gold FM ! I like to be a bit more progressive in my choices,

I think we all understood that about you mate ... it takes a special octane level of petrol in the veins to be able to run a collection such as yours after all......

[GTAm]

so does that mean there are virtually ZERO modern production american cars with Cams??

is that why those large displacement volumes dont yield as much power as a Jap or Euro would with a similar capacity??

if its cutting edge - dare i suggest a US-Jap Lexus GS450h ?

There are modern US engines with cams but they are usually developed at their European operations. For example the GM V6 was developed by their German subsidiary Opel.

Or are sourced from Japan like Ford, who buy Mazda engines.

As for DC since Daimler owns Chrysler they share technology but Merc only gives them the last generation tech for Chryslers current range. For example, W210 plartform and some engines for the 300C.

2nd question no its very unlikely that a push rod will come close to Jap or Euro engines that rev well. Also there's the question of response. Pushrods are lazy and easy going, power delivery is much quicker on a multi cam multi valve. If you want torque then there are the European TDI s. The US is no where when it comes to Diesel tech and anyway that might be cultural thing.

Yes the 450h is cutting edge. It's Jap. But US is now trying to catch up fast. Have you read about the Chevy Volt??

[Devinda_Z]

As for DC since Daimler owns Chrysler they share technology but Merc only gives them the last generation tech for Chryslers current range. For example, W210 plartform and some engines for the 300C.

The US is no where when it comes to Diesel tech and anyway that might be cultural thing.

Yes the 450h is cutting edge. It's Jap. But US is now trying to catch up fast. Have you read about the Chevy Volt??

but é 5.8L Hemi is proper american muscle correct?

but why exactly is it that Americans dont even bother with Diesel ?? but then again there are some decent American Diesel 8's - 5-7L massive units -swapped onto Landies in é UK

but why is it that é Americans dont use diesel in normal cars??? n why 87 RON - they'd be able to cut down on thier Co2's if they'd agrresively promoted Diesels over é yr's dont ya feel?

ahhhh the VOLT is amazing - Multi Fuel & Drive by wire with swappable body!

in fact i opend a thread on this in January - but fell on deaf years as our fellow AL comrades snubbed é funky Hybrid

é Video demo was excellent - now if they'd only make é thing

cuz Ford has been "making" a Hydrogen car since é 1990's - they boasted abt thier techniligy in National Geographic magazines front inside cover é bulk of that decade but nothing even close to a producation hybrid ever made é dealer forecourts

so i'd go abt trusting é Japs when it comes to getting technology on é rd next hit - é HOnda FCV

[isurujosh]

talk about future and japs(especially honda) are leading the way for an alternative to for gasoline... they are very advanced when it comes to fueld cells... heck they(honda) even make fuel cell batteries themselves now. euro's and americans too have been good but japs aren't lagging behind when it somes to future technology....

toyota has not made much progress as honda, they are holding back on major investments coz at this time itz uncertain which source will replace gasoline as the ultimate fuel of future.. when options become clearer toyota will take the world by a storm and make head way to perfectionise those technolgies too... future looks even brighter for japs

[Supra_Natural]

I guess this is very much one of those "to each his own" situations innit? but i guess we ca all commonly agree, that if we take say a regional poll, America, Europe and Asia..... Europe would win hands down, no question about it......

[Devinda_Z]

but the future of motoring is All Asia!!

n its not just fuel - é toyota RAUM or RUNX & 2 mother such mini MPV types actually use Bio-Degradable raw materials for BODY WORK

the Bumpers and external mouldings and é like are made using SUGARCANE & some other such material!!

[isurujosh]

but the future of motoring is All Asia!!

n its not just fuel - é toyota RAUM or RUNX & 2 mother such mini MPV types actually use Bio-Degradable raw materials for BODY WORK

the Bumpers and external mouldings and é like are made using SUGARCANE & some other such material!!

ha! ha! thatz where i am too... we both voted UK and think future is in Asia

[Devinda_Z]

ha! ha! thatz where i am too... we both voted UK and think future is in Asia

cant help but face the fact that asia is putting a far biger effort into R&D - Toyota has a purpose built research facilites in é USA , Australia , Thailand and obviously in achi prefecture its home base in japan

most of these facilities have top tech n detailed 4D life size hologram projectors and é like to desing cars!

ah n on toyota - they've now aquired a stake in Isuzu as wel!!!

[isurujosh]

cant help but face the fact that asia is putting a far biger effort into R&D - Toyota has a purpose built research facilites in é USA , Australia , Thailand and obviously in achi prefecture its home base in japan

most of these facilities have top tech n detailed 4D life size hologram projectors and é like to desing cars!

ah n on toyota - they've now aquired a stake in Isuzu as wel!!!

yah they acquired Isuzu some time ago and are planning on a diesel Prius... bdw they have enuf money to even buy GM and/or? chrysler too...

toyota is here to stay and rule the world now, god knows who can counter them... with Lexus challenging the likes of M5/M3 and even sports coupes with LF-A, future is promising for japan...

Edited February 22, 2007 by isurujosh

[Devinda_Z]

hmmm yeah Chrysler is a very realistic tie up given that they're trying to go their seperate ways from Daimler in terms of management & chryler wishes to operate as an autonomous unit lu...

so if Toyota plays it smart,they may wind up acquiring one of Americas " big 3 " soon.....

[GTAm]

hmmm yeah Chrysler is a very realistic tie up given that they're trying to go their seperate ways from Daimler in terms of management & chryler wishes to operate as an autonomous unit lu...

so if Toyota plays it smart,they may wind up acquiring one of Americas " big 3 " soon.....

Toyota actually has the cash to buy Ford and GM combined.

Btw you must have read about the possible GM-Chrysler Merger!? Scuicide for both I think!

[GTAm]

but é 5.8L Hemi is proper american muscle correct?

but why exactly is it that Americans dont even bother with Diesel ?? but then again there are some decent American Diesel 8's - 5-7L massive units -swapped onto Landies in é UK

but why is it that é Americans dont use diesel in normal cars??? n why 87 RON - they'd be able to cut down on thier Co2's if they'd agrresively promoted Diesels over é yr's dont ya feel?

ahhhh the VOLT is amazing - Multi Fuel & Drive by wire with swappable body!

Are you talking of the new Chrysler Hemi? I'm really not v sure how American it is. But what I know is it actually does not have hemispherical cylinder heads like the old Chrysler Hemi from which the name was derrived.

Petrol (or Gas in American) was so damn cheap there that they never had to bother. $1 per gallon it used to be. And they probably know diesels as suitable only for large trucks and farm vehicles. So the image of diesel must be real bad. But Mercedes sells diesel cars in the US.

[GTAm]

talk about future and japs(especially honda) are leading the way for an alternative to for gasoline... they are very advanced when it comes to fueld cells... heck they(honda) even make fuel cell batteries themselves now. euro's and americans too have been good but japs aren't lagging behind when it somes to future technology....

toyota has not made much progress as honda, they are holding back on major investments coz at this time itz uncertain which source will replace gasoline as the ultimate fuel of future.. when options become clearer toyota will take the world by a storm and make head way to perfectionise those technolgies too... future looks even brighter for japs

Excuse me but you seem to be reading to much Honda propoganda.

Are you aware that still hybrids are loss making for Toyota and Honda? They lose money on every Prius and Insight sold. But they want to stay ahead to be first in the market should costs come down through continuous research.

The industry is still not sure if Hybrids are the future. That's why other manufacturers are not rushing in. A recent US study showed that if you consider a car from the inputs at time of manufacturing, and the life of the car, actually a Prius is more detrimental to the environment than a gas guzzling Range Rover Sport! This feature was carried by CAR magazine last month.

Hybrids have a good image because all the Hollywood bimbos drive one. Again Japs are better at marketing than invention and innovation!

That said VW has made a breakthrough last month in Fuel cell tech which will make it more feasible. Right now the near term future could be diesel/electric hybrids. But many manufacturers say that eventually fossil fuels will have to be replaced.

[isurujosh]

hmmm yeah Chrysler is a very realistic tie up given that they're trying to go their seperate ways from Daimler in terms of management & chryler wishes to operate as an autonomous unit lu...

so if Toyota plays it smart,they may wind up acquiring one of Americas " big 3 " soon.....

nah i dont think toyota wud do that... their growth is organic. toyota only buys something when it has a technological interest...

eg: Daihatsu to build good small cars.

Isuzu for Diesel technology

Subaru ???? for the time being they only use the stake in subaru to use subaru's plant is US to build toyota's but what if they decide they too wanna build a good rally car ??????????? Toyota Corolla WRC-TRD or whatever ... make no mistake, Toyota wants to be the absolute boss...

[isurujosh]

Excuse me but you seem to be reading to much Honda propoganda.

Are you aware that still hybrids are loss making for Toyota and Honda? They lose money on every Prius and Insight sold. But they want to stay ahead to be first in the market should costs come down through continuous research.

The industry is still not sure if Hybrids are the future. That's why other manufacturers are not rushing in. A recent US study showed that if you consider a car from the inputs at time of manufacturing, and the life of the car, actually a Prius is more detrimental to the environment than a gas guzzling Range Rover Sport! This feature was carried by CAR magazine last month.

Hybrids have a good image because all the Hollywood bimbos drive one. Again Japs are better at marketing than invention and innovation!

That said VW has made a breakthrough last month in Fuel cell tech which will make it more feasible. Right now the near term future could be diesel/electric hybrids. But many manufacturers say that eventually fossil fuels will have to be replaced.

well it wasn't from propoganda material i collected the facts, it was from winding road magazine... now if you think winding road is Honda biased or even jap biased... then i got to say "Oh! c'mon, gimme a break" honda has made lot of progress in fuel cells and itz quite well known and so are the europeans which is why i said this time japs aren't lagging too much behind.

no personal offence to you sir but i am amused about ur claim on the subject of hybrids making losses ... if we talk about losses then the europeans are bigger loosers ... how many times did alfa run inot financial trouble... losses are part and partial with technological breakthroughs/R&D ... i admit that profits should matter however discrediting the hybrid success of toyota and honda on losses is not appropriate according to my understanding. but yes you can have your opinion. I hope i have not offended you

[Devinda_Z]

Ford has gotten on board this Hybrid bandwagon n shown off a DIESEL ELECTRIC concept!

The Ford Reflex—a silver sports coupe—also held by far the most unexpected variation in a hybrid electric powertrain.

1.4-liter turbo-diesel engine (possibly borrowed from the European Fiesta) model, to a prototype new-generation of Ford’s hybrid drive.

Performance—0 to 60 mph in less than 7 seconds

Fuel economy-estimated at 40 to 65 mpg in real-world use. Both the engine and the electric motor drive the front wheels through a six-speed automatic. In addition, like the Lexus RX400h, the Reflex has a second electric motor (20 hp, or 15 kW) to drive the rear wheels and provide all-wheel-drive.

With peak power (55 hp, or 41 kW) and torque (129 foot-pounds) at 6000 rpm and 4000 rpm respectively, this high-revving diesel complements electric drive’s low-end torque much better than do older, lower-revving diesels

[GTAm]

well it wasn't from propoganda material i collected the facts, it was from winding road magazine... now if you think winding road is Honda biased or even jap biased... then i got to say "Oh! c'mon, gimme a break" honda has made lot of progress in fuel cells and itz quite well known and so are the europeans which is why i said this time japs aren't lagging too much behind.

no personal offence to you sir but i am amused about ur claim on the subject of hybrids making losses ... if we talk about losses then the europeans are bigger loosers ... how many times did alfa run inot financial trouble... losses are part and partial with technological breakthroughs/R&D ... i admit that profits should matter however discrediting the hybrid success of toyota and honda on losses is not appropriate according to my understanding. but yes you can have your opinion. I hope i have not offended you

Hey no offence at all. But the fact is that Honda and Toyota LOSE MONEY on every Insight and Prius sold. Why do you think we are all not driving hybrids?? The tech is too costly STILL.

They want a pre-emtive position in the markert. And don't get me wrong, this is not a bad thing from a marketing perspective.

But......everyone has this tech and they are not convinced that this is the future. Toyota and Honda are very cash rich companies. They can take the hit.

As for your jibe at European car companies. I am not a share holder in any and really don't care or get offended like you did when I talked about the Japs.

To me they are all companies.

Just for you info though....the world's two most profitable car companies are European...Porsche and BMW. Porsche will soon buy control of VW.

From the Japs Toyota is the most profitable and should become the worlds biggest car company this year. Honda is very profitable too.

But the others are far from being in rude health. Nissan nearly went bust a few years ago and was saved by Renault and is now controlled by them.

Mitsubishi is still hemouraging cash like crazy and if the new Lancer fails they'll probably go bust. Subaru is an unhealthy fly waiting to be swallowed by Toyota who took a small stake in it last year. Mazda is controlled by FoMoCo. Suzuki is quite independant, Daihatsu fully owned by Toyota.

I hope you understand that just because a company makes loses that need not mean that their products are terrible or if they make huge profits that they make the best cars, although there could be a correlation in many cases!

Since you mentioned about US magazines.....................actually the rest of the automotive world (except the US and now it seems SL as well ) knows how glossy they make everything look, just like everything else in America. American mags are well known to give vague reviews to not hurt the advertising by manufacturers and those journalists get loads of freebies, again just like every other industry in the US. Just ask a guy called Jim Kenzie who was banned by Toyota from driving their cars for years as he tended to give accurate reviews.

Jeremy Clarkson might be assasinated if he moved to the US!

As for Alfa Romeo running into financial trouble. FYI they still are in financial trouble. But I don't see how that has any relevance here.

Hope I have not offended you now

[Devinda_Z]

uh....they got very close acording to that youtube video which was posted on another thread!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NevgQXKPfI

[isurujosh]

Jeremy Clarkson might be assasinated if he moved to the US!

As for Alfa Romeo running into financial trouble. FYI they still are in financial trouble. But I don't see how that has any relevance here.

Hope I have not offended you now

not at all sir, i am a great fan of your posts, every one of them make me learn something new. but on the subject i do not consider financial troubles causing a car company to loose it's greatness (upto a certain extent though) but i do not see why we should be so concerned about japs loosing money on their newer products... as i said earlier, they are part an partial of R&D... so be it, let the japs loose money and come up with something productive. i know the hybrids are way too expensive still, but let them continue with this pattern, learn more and make hybrdis make more cost effective. and itz not only hybrids, as i said earlier honda has made good progress in fuel cells as well...

i don't dispute ur opinion that euro's are the current greatest, that is why i voted for a euro country in this poll. but i think the future lies in japs (again just an opinion)

Porche is the world's most profitable car maker and they build some very efficient/powerful/evt friendly engines with lessor R&D budgets than japs, all those make the euros still greater than japs, no doubt about it.

bdw will Ferdinand Piech again greatly influence VW with the Porche control? is he the boss yet again?

oh! JC almost had himself killed by the red-necks

Edited February 26, 2007 by isurujosh

[GTAm]

not at all sir, i am a great fan of your posts, every one of them make me learn something new. but on the subject i do not consider financial troubles causing a car company to loose it's greatness (upto a certain extent though) but i do not see why we should be so concerned about japs loosing money on their newer products... as i said earlier, they are part an partial of R&D... so be it, let the japs loose money and come up with something productive. i know the hybrids are way too expensive still, but let them continue with this pattern, learn more and make hybrdis make more cost effective. and itz not only hybrids, as i said earlier honda has made good progress in fuel cells as well...

i don't dispute ur opinion that euro's are the current greatest, that is why i voted for a euro country in this poll. but i think the future lies in japs (again just an opinion)

Porche is the world's most profitable car maker and they build some very efficient/powerful/evt friendly engines with lessor R&D budgets than japs, all those make the euros still greater than japs, no doubt about it.

bdw will Ferdinand Piech again greatly influence VW with the Porche control? is he the boss yet again?

oh! JC almost had himself killed by the red-necks

Hey IJ we seem to have mis-understood each other a bit. No worries mate. It depends on how you measure greatness.

I was thinking more on the lines of how much innovation and contribution to motorsports the brands of that country has made.

But if its financial strength you can't argue with Japan and Toyota even if you forget all the other manufacturers.

As for the future it's getting crazier by the day.

The pace of growth of the Chinese and Indian markets mean that whoever has the best foot hold there will be winners. And then again there's so much money being made by their local companies that some of them could swallow up western or even Jap manufacturers. Scary thought I know