Can I Afford A Car?

[firstgear]

Geetings to everyone.

First up, thanks admin for validating my account; being waiting endlessly.

Going to my question next, please bear with me if I sound odd. I know my question is very personal but I will try to be more detailed so that some of you might be able to give me your opinion based on your experience and general feelings. Since my pseudonym is anonymous, I feel OK in proceeding.

Lately this idea of buying a car has been buzzing me. Mainly because of friends and family members who are suggesting me to buy one as I have just got married. But I am not sure if I am fit for the buy in terms of financial capacity (it's been more than a decade since my immediate family owned a car and I don't have a good knowledge about the expenses coming along with owning a one).

If I am going for a car, I think I would go for something below Rs. 1.4 m and for that budget what is available for my taste is Perodua Kelisa or Ford Laser 1998 among other options.

But the problem is, at the moment I have Rs. 70k take home (with at least 8k annual increment) and Rs.0.00 savings .

Do the majority of the people here think I can be an owner of a car?

If NO, then problem solved; see you all in couple of years

If YES, what are the ways of getting a full lease for a Rs. 1.4m car? I can only go for something like Rs. 25k per month installment. With the balance Rs. 45k could I be able to lead a decent life?

(At the moment I don't have house rents, utility bills, schooling fee for children etc and only have the expenses of food and cloth for about 3 persons)

My monthly run would be less than 500km.

Awaiting your replies.

Thanks

FG.

[VVTi]

Spend something less than what you want to spend for a car.

Let's say if you can spend 1.4mill with the lease, go for a car around 1mill.

So that you have something if there is an unexpected event or a repair in the car.

My recommendations would be the Kia Rio, Hyundai elentra/ accent. Not the best quality but better than indians,

you could hold onto one of these for some time and buy a better car when you collect some money.

A car would come in handy, let's say if you'r wife get's pregnant and need to be take to clinics, midnight travels to the hospital etc..

IF that is the case, a good KE72 would serve his purpose well... Even a Lancer Box. Might be able to pull one off in a couple of years with some serious hard core savings.

[NRX]

Make the decision by yourself and the wifey machan. Only you know your lifestyle, so with 45K you may or may not lead a decent life. I was in your situation 3,4 years ago, though I had a somewhat lower salary than you by that time. Anyhow I managed to buy my first vehicle and properly maintained it while maintaining the family life.

[VVTi]

Make the decision by yourself and the wifey machan. Only you know your lifestyle, so with 45K you may or may not lead a decent life. I was in your situation 3,4 years ago, though I had a somewhat lower salary than you by that time. Anyhow I managed to buy my first vehicle and properly maintained it while maintaining the family life.

Not having kids helps a lot though... those buggers are expensive.

Rather have the money to spend on some nice cars than to pay for some snotty nosed kid.

Car you can sell and recover the investment or at least part of it.... selling kids are illegal... LOL

[matroska]

After going through the forum extensively, I am kind of immune to Maruti. I have mocked several of my colleagues for owning Marutis. No offense to anyone .

Even the forum doesn't have a dedicated section for the Maruti brand .

My current mentality is either 'non-Indian car or nor car at all'*.

*subject to unconditional changes

I like that attitude

i have a friend who earns the same amount as you - and his fiance was nagging him to get a car (imagine the control she will have over him in a few years time) he ended up getting a Tata something that sounds like a kubota tractor. But in his case his dad owns a small business so he has a sort of stable financial base.

Your Salary is quite ok in the Sri Lankan context - I have another friend who gets a bit less than you, is married has a kid (his wife works : but gets a very low salary) and he still could afford a 1998 Honda city. At the end of the day it's about your lifestyle and your priorities.

If I were you i'd start saving now and wait for a few months till i have like 4-5 Lakhs in the bank and then go for the car. Try Saving the amount you have decided to allocate for the lease. When i started working (not so long ago) my starting salary was 50K i had very simple spartan lifestyle and i was surprised by the amount i had saved at the end of the year.

But don't give in to the pressure of others asking you to buy a car. If you like it buy it . Next time your uncle Perera suggests you to buy a car just tell him..

"Uncle thawa laksha 2-3k madi barida podi support ekak denna?" that'll probably be it.

.

Edited March 12, 2015 by matroska

[VVTi]

You kids are lucky... my first salary was 4000LKR in 1995.. LOL

[firstgear]

Spend something less than what you want to spend for a car.

Let's say if you can spend 1.4mill with the lease, go for a car around 1mill.

So that you have something if there is an unexpected event or a repair in the car.

My recommendations would be the Kia Rio, Hyundai elentra/ accent. Not the best quality but better than indians,

you could hold onto one of these for some time and buy a better car when you collect some money.

A car would come in handy, let's say if you'r wife get's pregnant and need to be take to clinics, midnight travels to the hospital etc..

Thanks for the advice. Taken note of.

My wife is already pregnant I take her sometimes on bike and other times on three wheeler.

[firstgear]

Welcome to the forum !!!

List your plans/budget for next five years. (You may have near future projects like land purchase, house constructions, babies etc.)

If you have a big/costly project like land purchase, house construction, go for a well maintained Maruti 800 about Rs.700,000 or with Maruti Alto little over that. Don't spend much on "Yakada Godawal".

If you don't have such big projects, then you can go for a better car.

You are the one who can deiced this.

This is my two cents.

Thanks for the welcome.

I don't have to purchase land or build house at the moment as my wife already has a house under her name

My wife is already pregnant and the next big project coming is related to the baby and after that schooling him/her etc.

[firstgear]

I like that attitude

i have a friend who earns the same amount as you - and his fiance was nagging him to get a car (imagine the control she will have over him in a few years time) he ended up getting a Tata something that sounds like a kubota tractor. But in his case his dad owns a small business so he has a sort of stable financial base.

Your Salary is quite ok in the Sri Lankan context - I have another friend who gets a bit less than you, is married has a kid (his wife works : but gets a very low salary) and he still could afford a 1998 Honda city. At the end of the day it's about your lifestyle and your priorities.

If I were you i'd start saving now and wait for a few months till i have like 4-5 Lakhs in the bank and then go for the car. Try Saving the amount you have decided to allocate for the lease. When i started working (not so long ago) my starting salary was 50K i had very simple spartan lifestyle and i was surprised by the amount i had saved at the end of the year.

But don't give in to the pressure of others asking you to buy a car. If you like it buy it . Next time your uncle Perera suggests you to buy a car just tell him..

"Uncle thawa laksha 2-3k madi barida podi support ekak denna?" that'll probably be it.

.

Haha funny and realistic advice. Thanks for your input mate. Well absorbed.

[Rumesh88]

My complements to firstgear for asking a very sincere question. (BTW you may use the Multiquote option whenever you need to respond to multiple posts all in one).

If I were you in your situation I would have waited for the baby to arrive before going for a vehicle although it is nice and safer to have a car in hand as opposed to a bike when taking your wife around. Otherwise you wouldn't have much headroom with your financials should a sudden requirement comes up (For example, a Caesarean section at a private hospital would cost you between 150 to 200k these days). So begin saving for the baby now. If you are lucky, as we all wish, you will have some savings by the time the baby decides when to be born, so that you may take your decision at that point.

[VVTi]

My complements to firstgear for asking a very sincere question. (BTW you may use the Multiquote option whenever you need to respond to multiple posts all in one).

If I were you in your situation I would have waited for the baby to arrive before going for a vehicle although it is nice and safer to have a car in hand as opposed to a bike when taking your wife around. Otherwise you wouldn't have much headroom with your financials should a sudden requirement comes up (For example, a Caesarean section at a private hospital would cost you between 150 to 200k these days). So begin saving for the baby now. If you are lucky, as we all wish, you will have some savings by the time the baby decides when to be born, so that you may take your decision at that point.

a set of Koni's or a complete WEPR Inter-cooler kit...

[firstgear]

My complements to firstgear for asking a very sincere question. (BTW you may use the Multiquote option whenever you need to respond to multiple posts all in one).

If I were you in your situation I would have waited for the baby to arrive before going for a vehicle although it is nice and safer to have a car in hand as opposed to a bike when taking your wife around. Otherwise you wouldn't have much headroom with your financials should a sudden requirement comes up (For example, a Caesarean section at a private hospital would cost you between 150 to 200k these days). So begin saving for the baby now. If you are lucky, as we all wish, you will have some savings by the time the baby decides when to be born, so that you may take your decision at that point.

Thanks for your advice mate. Thankfully for the hospital needs, I have insurance from office. 100k for each member. So I am hopeful to manage with that (hoping to combine the 2) when the baby decides to born Nevertheless I understand that I need to seriously start making savings.

a set of Koni's or a complete WEPR Inter-cooler kit...

You are such a baby hater.

[Hoonigan]

Welcome to the forum. I was more or less weighing the same options under similar circumstances about 5 years ago when I was drawing 50K. But I was single.

Even then I didn't feel comfortable committing a significant portion of my salary for a car that I'm not entirely happy with (I couldn't afford what I wanted to buy) So I have up the car idea and bought a better bike. I enjoyed the ride, managed to save a good bit of the salary every month and had enough cash on me to manage my expenses.

By the sound of it, you're considering the purchase purely out of family pressure and you seem to do just fine without one So far. Although you say you can manage with 25K, the fact that you have zero savings so far means that you have spent the entire salary so far, so are you sure you can commit to the lease, fuel, insurance and maintenance?

I think it would be best if you commit to the decision now, get a handle on your expenses and save up for some time and dive in for the buy when you feel like "you" need a car.

[VVTi]

You are such a baby hater.

On the contrary.. I love kids... just not enough to get one for myself... LOL.

Better things to do with your time and money.

[LashNeo]

As many have pointed out, when owning a car you have to cope with additional costs as well. Let’s say you buy a used Japanese car which is within your budget. From my experience, I know that It would set you back around 2,000-3,000 rupees per month on average for maintaining an old car. This is the average spending per month for all the costs that occur throughout the years such as insurance, servicing, repairs etc. For ease, let’s make it Rs 2,500 per month.

You say you have to travel around 500Km’s per month. Let’s assume your car does 10Kmpl and it runs on petrol. So that means you have to fill in about 50 liters of petrol per month which adds up to around Rs 5500. And on top of that you are on a full lease of around 25,000 rupees. When you add all of these up, you’ll be spending around Rs 33,000 (25,000+5500+2500) per month on the car and you’ll be left out with around Rs 37,000 to manage all the other expenses. So, do you think you can manage with that? You say you don’t have any savings as well isn’t it? So, I feel it’s a bit risky.

If you buy a brand new Indian car for that budget, you’ll be able minimize the maintenance cost. But think about the depreciation. Brand new Indian cars depreciate over time very quickly compared to used Japs. Used japs within your price bracket do not lose their value that much. Most probably you’ll be able to sell it at the price you bought even after 4-5 years of ownership. So, even though you’ll be spending less on maintenance, you’ll be losing money due to depreciation when buying a new car. Let’s say over a 5 year period your brand new car loses Rs 200,000 in its value. That means you’ll be spending around 3,300 per month indirectly. So, ultimately there’s not much of a difference. In fact you’ll be losing more money if you go for a new car.

Think about the other impacts of getting into debt as well. When you find it difficult to manage your other expenditures, your family life will also get affected. You’ll be even blaming your wife and pushing her for a job. A wife at home is actually a blessing. You’ll be free of most of the house hold duties since she’ll be managing all that. Trust me I know how easy it is from experience. If I were you, I would wait for another year or so without committing myself into debt on a car. I would save or invest the 25,000 and spend the other 8,000 or so on family. How about enjoying life with your newly married wife? Go on a trip or two. Buy her some nice gifts. Maybe some gold jewelry which would come handy in an emergency. Doing those things would be difficult when a kid or two comes aboard so enjoy life while you can.

If you feel that saving money does not yield much of a return these days, get a loan and invest it on a land. I did that last year when the loan rates were reduced. When most of my friends were getting loans to purchase the latest hybrid, I kept my old Jap and purchased a land for a per purch value of Rs 350,000. After less than a year, the land value has risen up to Rs 450,000 per purch. Just think about the gain.

Think wisely and act wisely. Don’t get in to debt without having at least Rs 100,000-200,000 as a reserve for an emergency. I wish all the best for you.

[firstgear]

Welcome to the forum. I was more or less weighing the same options under similar circumstances about 5 years ago when I was drawing 50K. But I was single.

Even then I didn't feel comfortable committing a significant portion of my salary for a car that I'm not entirely happy with (I couldn't afford what I wanted to buy) So I have up the car idea and bought a better bike. I enjoyed the ride, managed to save a good bit of the salary every month and had enough cash on me to manage my expenses.

By the sound of it, you're considering the purchase purely out of family pressure and you seem to do just fine without one So far. Although you say you can manage with 25K, the fact that you have zero savings so far means that you have spent the entire salary so far, so are you sure you can commit to the lease, fuel, insurance and maintenance?

I think it would be best if you commit to the decision now, get a handle on your expenses and save up for some time and dive in for the buy when you feel like "you" need a car.

Thanks for the welcome.

you are right, that will be difficult. And I would have to have a tight lifestyle until i pay off the lease.

[firstgear]

As many have pointed out, when owning a car you have to cope with additional costs as well. Let’s say you buy a used Japanese car which is within your budget. From my experience, I know that It would set you back around 2,000-3,000 rupees per month on average for maintaining an old car. This is the average spending per month for all the costs that occur throughout the years such as insurance, servicing, repairs etc. For ease, let’s make it Rs 2,500 per month.

You say you have to travel around 500Km’s per month. Let’s assume your car does 10Kmpl and it runs on petrol. So that means you have to fill in about 50 liters of petrol per month which adds up to around Rs 5500. And on top of that you are on a full lease of around 25,000 rupees. When you add all of these up, you’ll be spending around Rs 33,000 (25,000+5500+2500) per month on the car and you’ll be left out with around Rs 37,000 to manage all the other expenses. So, do you think you can manage with that? You say you don’t have any savings as well isn’t it? So, I feel it’s a bit risky.

If you buy a brand new Indian car for that budget, you’ll be able minimize the maintenance cost. But think about the depreciation. Brand new Indian cars depreciate over time very quickly compared to used Japs. Used japs within your price bracket do not lose their value that much. Most probably you’ll be able to sell it at the price you bought even after 4-5 years of ownership. So, even though you’ll be spending less on maintenance, you’ll be losing money due to depreciation when buying a new car. Let’s say over a 5 year period your brand new car loses Rs 200,000 in its value. That means you’ll be spending around 3,300 per month indirectly. So, ultimately there’s not much of a difference. In fact you’ll be losing more money if you go for a new car.

Think about the other impacts of getting into debt as well. When you find it difficult to manage your other expenditures, your family life will also get affected. You’ll be even blaming your wife and pushing her for a job. A wife at home is actually a blessing. You’ll be free of most of the house hold duties since she’ll be managing all that. Trust me I know how easy it is from experience. If I were you, I would wait for another year or so without committing myself into debt on a car. I would save or invest the 25,000 and spend the other 8,000 or so on family. How about enjoying life with your newly married wife? Go on a trip or two. Buy her some nice gifts. Maybe some gold jewelry which would come handy in an emergency. Doing those things would be difficult when a kid or two comes aboard so enjoy life while you can.

If you feel that saving money does not yield much of a return these days, get a loan and invest it on a land. I did that last year when the loan rates were reduced. When most of my friends were getting loans to purchase the latest hybrid, I kept my old Jap and purchased a land for a per purch value of Rs 350,000. After less than a year, the land value has risen up to Rs 450,000 per purch. Just think about the gain.

Think wisely and act wisely. Don’t get in to debt without having at least Rs 100,000-200,000 as a reserve for an emergency. I wish all the best for you.

Thanks very much mate.

Greatly appreciate your beneficial advice. I will follow what you said.

[sathyajithj99]

I must say this thread has become more valuable for us who are still unmarried and planning for the future. Sharing experience from their own lives and advicing of the forum members are highly appreciated. It is not only a lesson about cars, but a lesson for life. Thankyou very much.

[Watchman]

This thread deserves an award for the sensibility of the question, the level of maturity people have shown in responding, and the active counter responses from the OP himself. I'm bookmarking this thread to share the next time someone asks "I can get a loan of $$$$$. should I buy A, B or C.

It also goes to show that newbie-rape is not the norm here and the raping based on the newbie's individual attributes/stupidity.

[VVTi]

As many have pointed out, when owning a car you have to cope with additional costs as well. Let’s say you buy a used Japanese car which is within your budget. From my experience, I know that It would set you back around 2,000-3,000 rupees per month on average for maintaining an old car. This is the average spending per month for all the costs that occur throughout the years such as insurance, servicing, repairs etc. For ease, let’s make it Rs 2,500 per month.

You say you have to travel around 500Km’s per month. Let’s assume your car does 10Kmpl and it runs on petrol. So that means you have to fill in about 50 liters of petrol per month which adds up to around Rs 5500. And on top of that you are on a full lease of around 25,000 rupees. When you add all of these up, you’ll be spending around Rs 33,000 (25,000+5500+2500) per month on the car and you’ll be left out with around Rs 37,000 to manage all the other expenses. So, do you think you can manage with that? You say you don’t have any savings as well isn’t it? So, I feel it’s a bit risky.

If you buy a brand new Indian car for that budget, you’ll be able minimize the maintenance cost. But think about the depreciation. Brand new Indian cars depreciate over time very quickly compared to used Japs. Used japs within your price bracket do not lose their value that much. Most probably you’ll be able to sell it at the price you bought even after 4-5 years of ownership. So, even though you’ll be spending less on maintenance, you’ll be losing money due to depreciation when buying a new car. Let’s say over a 5 year period your brand new car loses Rs 200,000 in its value. That means you’ll be spending around 3,300 per month indirectly. So, ultimately there’s not much of a difference. In fact you’ll be losing more money if you go for a new car.

Think about the other impacts of getting into debt as well. When you find it difficult to manage your other expenditures, your family life will also get affected. You’ll be even blaming your wife and pushing her for a job. A wife at home is actually a blessing. You’ll be free of most of the house hold duties since she’ll be managing all that. Trust me I know how easy it is from experience. If I were you, I would wait for another year or so without committing myself into debt on a car. I would save or invest the 25,000 and spend the other 8,000 or so on family. How about enjoying life with your newly married wife? Go on a trip or two. Buy her some nice gifts. Maybe some gold jewelry which would come handy in an emergency. Doing those things would be difficult when a kid or two comes aboard so enjoy life while you can.

If you feel that saving money does not yield much of a return these days, get a loan and invest it on a land. I did that last year when the loan rates were reduced. When most of my friends were getting loans to purchase the latest hybrid, I kept my old Jap and purchased a land for a per purch value of Rs 350,000. After less than a year, the land value has risen up to Rs 450,000 per purch. Just think about the gain.

Think wisely and act wisely. Don’t get in to debt without having at least Rs 100,000-200,000 as a reserve for an emergency. I wish all the best for you.

One of the finest replies in a long time. Hats off.... so much maturity.

[Crosswind]

I have a slightly different suggestion here. You said you are earning 70k per month and already married for about a year so I presume you have worked for at least a year or so. Maybe more. Still you have zero savings. First of all, could you visit your finances and see whether you are doing anything wrong here? Perhaps you may already be spending more than you earn and that needs to be cut off.

To be honest, when I was earning 70k a month, about 10 years back, I had zero savings too... and I had no car or land or practically anything that I can call a capital expense bought by my own money either... my lifestyle was wayward then... I would just spend money on gadgets and stuff or hanging out with the guys... luckily, its a bit more controlled now.

Here's my 2 cents:

Have a look at your finances. Find out WHY you don't have savings. Check if your expenses are necessary and controllable. Change lifestyles if necessary but don't try to be a lobaya.

Learn to SAVE and spend the balance not Spend and save the balance. Always good to have a bank account without an ATM card for this.

Ask your wife to handle the savings part (women are usually good at it, unless she is too lavish)

Finally... if you have a credit card, consider cancelling it. If you are using for emergencies, then keep it at home. don't take it with you... if you are buying stuff off the web, then use a debit card... Credit cars are by far, the single most bloodsucker in the country. The minimum interest rate of a credit card is around 24% and you attract a minimum 1% stamp duty on monthly transactions.

What I don't want to see dude, is you deciding not to buy a car now and 1 year later, being in the same situation - zero savings with no car or land or anything in your name so try to avoid that...

Edited March 12, 2015 by Crosswind

[Amila G]

Thanks for your advice mate. Thankfully for the hospital needs, I have insurance from office. 100k for each member. So I am hopeful to manage with that (hoping to combine the 2) when the baby decides to born Nevertheless I understand that I need to seriously start making savings.

I may be wrong but I think you can't combine the insurance of both you and wife as the insurance is from your company. A C-section in a private hospital will cost close to 200K if everything goes well. I had an insurance for 200K but had to pay 100K out of the pocket for a ~180K bill. So keep that in mind and better check with the insurance company.

If I were you, I'll look into getting a personal loan for about 500K and getting on old car (may be a corolla DX). Just my 2c

[iRage]

On the contrary.. I love kids... just not enough to get one for myself... LOL.

I believe that...during a #@$ 5 minute drop-by you made both my kid and dog-hyper active for the whole #@$# DAY ! Kid keeps asking when you are coming back to run with the dog. Shortly followed by questions of you taking the dog with you

Welcome to A/L. Whether you decide to buy a car or not I hope you stick around the forums as it is quite entertaining and educational

I really can't say anything other than what the others have said. Save and figure out why you couldn't save all this time. It is going to be risky and somewhat difficult living salary to salary with a kid (not impossible...lot of people do it...but you should try your best not to)

I might have missed something here but is there any reason why you want to spend so much on a first car ? I think someone mentioned cars like KE72, box lancers etc. Granted most of them are hammered (as they can take a lot of abuse) but you do find decent specimens. Those usually run for half the price of what you are thinking.

[firstgear]

I may be wrong but I think you can't combine the insurance of both you and wife as the insurance is from your company. A C-section in a private hospital will cost close to 200K if everything goes well. I had an insurance for 200K but had to pay 100K out of the pocket for a ~180K bill. So keep that in mind and better check with the insurance company.

If I were you, I'll look into getting a personal loan for about 500K and getting on old car (may be a corolla DX). Just my 2c

Good that you brought this up. I will have to immediately check this with our HR. Thanks

[firstgear]

I have a slightly different suggestion here. You said you are earning 70k per month and already married for about a year so I presume you have worked for at least a year or so. Maybe more. Still you have zero savings. First of all, could you visit your finances and see whether you are doing anything wrong here? Perhaps you may already be spending more than you earn and that needs to be cut off.

To be honest, when I was earning 70k a month, about 10 years back, I had zero savings too... and I had no car or land or practically anything that I can call a capital expense bought by my own money either... my lifestyle was wayward then... I would just spend money on gadgets and stuff or hanging out with the guys... luckily, its a bit more controlled now.

Here's my 2 cents:

Have a look at your finances. Find out WHY you don't have savings. Check if your expenses are necessary and controllable. Change lifestyles if necessary but don't try to be a lobaya.

Learn to SAVE and spend the balance not Spend and save the balance. Always good to have a bank account without an ATM card for this.

Ask your wife to handle the savings part (women are usually good at it, unless she is too lavish)

Finally... if you have a credit card, consider cancelling it. If you are using for emergencies, then keep it at home. don't take it with you... if you are buying stuff off the web, then use a debit card... Credit cars are by far, the single most bloodsucker in the country. The minimum interest rate of a credit card is around 24% and you attract a minimum 1% stamp duty on monthly transactions.

What I don't want to see dude, is you deciding not to buy a car now and 1 year later, being in the same situation - zero savings with no car or land or anything in your name so try to avoid that...

Yes. I have been working for about 4 years now. My first salary was 20k

And I believe the main reason for my lack of savings is these credit cards. I still have about 80k in outstanding balance with 2 banks. So every month I pay about 15k to credit cards in addition to the 20k bike lease. Everyting else is covered from the balance 35k . If everything goes well, in about 5 months I would be able to pay off the outstanding balance in credit cards and bike lease. By then I will have my first kid. Only then I will be able to start to make a saving.

The other thing is, I never felt anytime that I need to make a saving nor did anyone advised me to make a saving. So I grew to the habit of spending to zero towards the end of the month.

Edited March 12, 2015 by firstgear

[firstgear]

Welcome to A/L. Whether you decide to buy a car or not I hope you stick around the forums as it is quite entertaining and educational

I really can't say anything other than what the others have said. Save and figure out why you couldn't save all this time. It is going to be risky and somewhat difficult living salary to salary with a kid (not impossible...lot of people do it...but you should try your best not to)

I might have missed something here but is there any reason why you want to spend so much on a first car ? I think someone mentioned cars like KE72, box lancers etc. Granted most of them are hammered (as they can take a lot of abuse) but you do find decent specimens. Those usually run for half the price of what you are thinking.

Thanks for the welcome

The reason I thought to go for a car with that amount is because I thought that after paying lease for 5-6 years, I should have to have something valuable at the end that could be considered as an asset.