Fuel Efficiency Of Hybrid Vehicle

[iRage]

All are very much concern about the battery replacement of the Hybrids.

1. Lets see..., Most of the hybrids in SL were manufactured after 2012. Majority may not required to replace the battery before 2020 (other than any manufacturing defect). Couldn't be the battery prices come down in next five years ??

2. Heard that no need to replaces the entire battery and could be replaced defective cell module. However, ultimately the battery should be replaced but service life could be extended by replacing defective cells with low cost.

The CVT box of non hybrid Allion, Premio also will not last longer than 10 years if heavily used. Brand new CVT box will cost around 0.3 to 0.5 million rupees if not purchased re-con one for Rs. 80,000++

Any comments.......

You bring a good point..but you slightly mistargetted it. The issue is not necessarily the pronblem coming up. For starters any car driven hard (and up to the point of abuse) on a long term basis will have things break. Heck I have a freind who burnt out the clutch of a brand new Forester within two weeks of getting it !

Anyway...the point is a matter of serviceability and maintainability.

Something like a a CVT you can maintain it to reduce the risk of things going ad with it. For example you can do regular and context appropriate oil changes or even drive carefully. So there are a lot of things under your control that you can actually do. As for the Hybrid system (now I admit I am not a Hybrid system expert...heck I figured out how a plug point works just yesterday), as far as I know, a lot of things go wrong due to factors that would be beyond your control. For example; factors like ambient tempreture or even batteries not getting the opportunity to recharge to its optimal potential. So in that regard you really can't compare the CVT issues with the Hybrid system issues.

Secondly the serviceability factor. Almost everyone I have come across who has had CVT problems successfully got the problems solved with a proper swap. Apart from that in some countries you get specialists who fix up CVT boxes. On the other hand I know 5 people who have had Hybrid problems and none of them seem to be happy with the fixes. Two of them got it fixed by the agents at huge costs one seems to be doing okay the other is having the warning lights go off...the other three are in equally not so good shape. So that raises the question..have our knowledge and skills base matured enough to PROPERLY attend to these vehicles ? (I am an IT guy so let me put it this way...just because you went and did MCSE at some hot shot Microsoft backed campus it doesn't mean you can actually manage/administer an enterprise network/data center)...

[gayanath]

Anyway...the point is a matter of serviceability and maintainability.

I think it's not. If you go in detail about the mechanical engineering stuff of CVT box (belt and pulley), in the design itself it's obvious that it could not last longer as like as conventional manual box or even auto box. The possibilities are very high to fail (clamping force issues, belt and pully wear, clutch issues, torque converter issues, very low tolerances, etc) Although some people are repairing them, it's non repairable item and the box will not give such performance after the repair.

All Sri Lankan CVT's are well maintained with regular oil changes in 20k to 40k intervals but although the oil changes have done regularly, they too having issues. Let's assume average 30K oil change interval with 20,000 rupees for each, then we will cost Rs. 100,000 for 150k km. We could easily replace the box with used law millage one.

Then why car manufactures used CVT?

The concept behind is fuel efficiency (although the value is not such big, 1 or 2 km/l improvement is enough for them to comply the regulations) and manufacturing cost reduction. ---- Low cost of manufacturing, less running cost, throw away --- , That's why CVT boxes are coming as sealed unit and recommended higher oil changing intervals too if use more than 160k. Otherwise they called them as lifetime means throw away and buy new one.

Something like a a CVT you can maintain it to reduce the risk of things going ad with it. For example you can do regular and context appropriate oil changes or even drive carefully. So there are a lot of things under your control that you can actually do. As for the Hybrid system (now I admit I am not a Hybrid system expert...heck I figured out how a plug point works just yesterday), as far as I know, a lot of things go wrong due to factors that would be beyond your control. For example; factors like ambient tempreture or even batteries not getting the opportunity to recharge to its optimal potential. So in that regard you really can't compare the CVT issues with the Hybrid system issues.

Although I am using a hybrid due to requirement of new car and low investment in SL, I'm not a hybrid fan. But the mechanical part in hybrid (I am referring Toyota and not Honda DCD) is very simple in construction and no need any extra maintenance though our people are doing so claiming Sri Lankan context. The temperature, amount of charge, etc are handling by the on board computer system and we should not worry about that. Actually the battery and the system should be maintained at higher temperature at running condition than our ambient temperature so SL is better than Japan in that sense.

However, the electronic controlling part is little bit complected but we cannot get rid of it in current electronic world. Any defective part should be replaced.

So, its true that comparison of CVT issues and Hybrids are not apple to apple but the concept behind is more or less same.

Secondly the serviceability factor. Almost everyone I have come across who has had CVT problems successfully got the problems solved with a proper swap. Apart from that in some countries you get specialists who fix up CVT boxes. On the other hand I know 5 people who have had Hybrid problems and none of them seem to be happy with the fixes. Two of them got it fixed by the agents at huge costs one seems to be doing okay the other is having the warning lights go off...the other three are in equally not so good shape. So that raises the question..have our knowledge and skills base matured enough to PROPERLY attend to these vehicles ? (I am an IT guy so let me put it this way...just because you went and did MCSE at some hot shot Microsoft backed campus it doesn't mean you can actually manage/administer an enterprise network/data center)...

Finally, the issue in Sri Lankan context is,

Always, our people would like to buy cars beyond our affordable level. We are buying cars which manufactured for separate concept, .... then criticize.

If anyone have no money to throw away the battery and fix new one after several years, he should not buy a hybrid. Likewise, if any one cannot afford the depreciation of 5 -10 laks after 5 years should not buy a Allion or premio. They should buy a conventional car or low coast Indian one having cheap spares, fuel efficient, etc (and unfortunately having good resale value than any other comfortable Japanese or European car).

Edited January 15, 2016 by gayanath

[Crosswind]

Just check the car sale statistics in Japan.....It would answer some questions posted here with THE FACTS not depend on heresay or imaginary things or fear psychosis....

http://www.best-selling-cars.com/japan/2014-q3-japan-best-selling-car-brand-models/'>http://www.best-selling-cars.com/japan/2014-q3-japan-best-selling-car-brand-models/

http://www.best-selling-cars.com/japan/2015-q1-japan-best-selling-car-manufacturers-brands-and-models/'>http://www.best-selling-cars.com/japan/2015-q1-japan-best-selling-car-manufacturers-brands-and-models/

Those stats are highly unreliable due to a simple fact

A large number of brand new vehicles in Japan get registered, de registered almost immediately and get exported to countries like Sri Lanka. Afaik on average about 10,000 cars a month came to Sri Lanka in 2014/15. Unless one subtracts the number JDM cars that get exported out from those figures (not just to Sri Lanka), the most popular model among Japanese public cannot be accurately determined.

[gayanath]

Those stats are highly unreliable due to a simple fact A large number of brand new vehicles in Japan get registered, de registered almost immediately and get exported to countries like Sri Lanka. Afaik on average about 10,000 cars a month came to Sri Lanka in 2014/15. Unless one subtracts the number JDM cars that get exported out from those figures (not just to Sri Lanka), the most popular model among Japanese public cannot be accurately determined.

Car registration in SL

Ongoing Number :

2015/01/25 - CAD-6000

2016/01/15 - CAO-4000 hope it will reach 6000 by 25th

Total 11 letters

Per letter - 9999 - 480 (need to reduce 480 for lucky no 13) = 9519

For 11 letters (per last year) = 104,709

Per month = 8,725

This 8,725 per month including all Maruti, Peradua, Toyota Thailand, Toyota BN etc. So hope less than 5,000 of Japanese JDM cars come to SL per month.

Most of them are used and therefore the category (just registered and de-registered) Cosswind highlighted could be less than 500 per month for Sri Lanka.

Edited January 15, 2016 by gayanath

[rija]

Those stats are highly unreliable due to a simple fact A large number of brand new vehicles in Japan get registered, de registered almost immediately and get exported to countries like Sri Lanka. Afaik on average about 10,000 cars a month came to Sri Lanka in 2014/15. Unless one subtracts the number JDM cars that get exported out from those figures (not just to Sri Lanka), the most popular model among Japanese public cannot be accurately determined.

According to the huge margin of hybrid vehicles to non hybrid vehicle on that stastistics it is still they are at the top 10 level(May not be number 1) even you substract those immediately de registered vehicles.

By the way our vehicle registration during 2014 is not that high according to Department of Motor Traffic Statistics.

http://www.motortraffic.gov.lk/web/images/stories/document/fu14.pdf

[iRage]

I think it's not. If you go in detail about the mechanical engineering stuff of CVT box (belt and pulley), in the design itself ........

Always, our people would like to buy cars beyond our affordable level. We are buying cars which manufactured for separate concept, .... then criticize.

If anyone have no money to throw away the battery and fix new one after several years, he should not buy a hybrid. Likewise, if any one cannot afford the depreciation of 5 -10 laks after 5 years should not buy a Allion or premio. They should buy a conventional car or low coast Indian one having cheap spares, fuel efficient, etc (and unfortunately having good resale value than any other comfortable Japanese or European car).

I should have been clearer...when I meant serviceability I meant as a whole...not necessarily breaking it apart and trying to repair it as an entire unit (granted like I said...I have seen specialist shops in Japan who claim they refurbish and fix CVTs ...I guess it depends on what actually went wrong with it ...no idea how good the repair is or if the cost of repairing/refurbing it is even worth it).

The point was...with careful use and context specific maintenance you can REDUCE THE RISK in regards to CVTs.

Actually, although the Toyota CVTs come as a non-serviceable unit, the technical service manuals do have a 80K-100K oil change procedure as part of its maintenance schedule (for normal use). So the implication is that it can be serviceable for extended life (which is what you said as well....now don't go saying what the manuals you get your hand on says...most JDM manuals say "Call your local Toyota dealer" even for something as simple as your power windows needing calibration after removing your battery ! or the smart key needing a battery swap>

I do not agree with you saying that the concept behind the CVT and Hybrid problems popping up is the same. You yourself actually implied that CVTs are maintainable and can be serviced (with your calculation) whilst Hybrid systems are not ("don't need it" if I was to be exact to what you said). Would you hope to use the CVT 150K (or even more) with proper oil changes ? mindful driving ? etc....? But then, let it be the battery not charging to its potential or whether the ancillary devices required for the Hybrid system, aren't you saying that the users can't do anything (and don't need to) to keep them up and running ? No matter what the reason is it does seem that at the end of the day the Hybrid systems lose their full "operability" with age (and seemingly nothing can be done about it to make sure that you can at least TRY to extend its life)

Now...we all know what your stand on maintenance is (eg. oil changes, etc...yes it is a grand old conspiracy that has held car owners by its testicles for generations !..that was sarcasm by the way). It is interesting to see a different point of view (that was sincerity)...so lets agree to disagree on the matter .

I also agree with you on the last point of how Sri Lankans buy cars...lets be honest 99% of these guys buy it with the intention of saving money on fuel (and purchase of the car) and selling it off before it develops any problems. and I know that most of them buy these cars with huge loan/lease payments and barely have any financial flexibility after the purchase

....and yes...most people buy cars completely out of context....but then again....with the current tax systems you really can't blame the people. Even if they run just 100kms a week over the weekends and a ICE would suffice and probably might last longer; they are cornered in buying Hybrids because even a decent kei car costs as much as an Aqua

Even in the past with all the other Hybrid threads I have stated that I have no quandaries buying a Hybrid in Japan (or a similar country). The warranty is there...people who knows how to fix them are there (if needed) and I would be using it only for a few years before shipping it off to a developing country. Wife and I actually looked around at Hybrids too....and the sales people after assessing our usage patterns advised that we should not buy a Hybrid (who knew..car sales people who are not trying to palm something off on a customer ??? They exist ???).

I do disagree with you on Hybrids being boring....yes most mainstream Hybrids are...but to be honest I liked the frame/chassis of the Aqua (steering was dumb and numb), liked the Fit (but hated the damn gearbox), a colleague of mine has a Hybrid 3 series which was actually pretty fun...then again not all of us can afford the likes of that.

There are a few points that Hybrid owners on the forums miss the point on what is being said by the group that seems to have been tagged as the "Hybrid haters" <who apparently were Allion/Premio Haters just a few years ago>.

1. None of us are denying the fact that the Hybrids would be more efficient compared to an equal capacity ICE car; thus your fuel bill would be lower.

2. Although Hybrids are efficient, they are not the god sent gift to save this planet. With advances in ICE tech you do get ICE cars that are equally fuel conservative in the real world.

3. Although your daily op costs would be lower, there are other factors that would make the total cost of ownership equal as an ICE car over extended periods of time.

4. In a Sri Lankan context, our knowledge and skill bases have not matured enough to actually take care of these things. The learning curve seems to be moderately...well....anyway...

5. Not all Hybrid owners have the decency or respectability to actually come out and say the true motivations behind purchasing a Hybrid unlike you and a few of our members here (much respect to you guys).

6. The Hybrid systems until now still seem to be transient. The technology, like Hoonigan said, has come a long way and is still "going" ? Also new tech seems to be coming all the time...Hydrogen seems to be taking a huge leap. AND If our Hon. Finance Minister has his own way we will soon be seeing helium cars too ! So then the question is...what would happen to the current Hybrids? Its kind of like for most users, even if it was dirt cheap you still would not want a computer from the last decade...<okay..bit of an exaggeration....I am sure Hybrids won't be that obsolete>

P.S. : I thought what you could get for 100K or so are used CVT units ? in which case you really don't know where or what it came out of. Just because something has a low mileage it doesn't mean it is good. Especially with something like a CVT.

[iRage]

Just check the car sale statistics in Japan.....It would answer some questions posted here with THE FACTS not depend on heresay or imaginary things or fear psychosis....

http://www.best-selling-cars.com/japan/2014-q3-japan-best-selling-car-brand-models/

http://www.best-selling-cars.com/japan/2015-q1-japan-best-selling-car-manufacturers-brands-and-models/

According to the huge margin of hybrid vehicles to non hybrid vehicle on that stastistics it is still they are at the top 10 level(May not be number 1) even you substract those immediately de registered vehicles.

By the way our vehicle registration during 2014 is not that high according to Department of Motor Traffic Statistics.

http://www.motortraffic.gov.lk/web/images/stories/document/fu14.pdf

Actually not really ! Those figured do not include kei cars which is the highest selling vehicle category in Japan. Except for a few Suzuki kei car models all the others are ICE...so if you are calculating pure numbers wouldn't it be fair to include those as well ?

[iRage]

This 8,725 per month including all Maruti, Peradua, Toyota Thailand, Toyota BN etc. So hope less than 5,000 of Japanese JDM cars come to SL per month.

Most of them are used and therefore the category (just registered and de-registered) Cosswind highlighted could be less than 500 per month for Sri Lanka.

Like he said "countries LIKE Sri Lanka" ! A lot of these models get shipped out to other markets through grey importers. But then again like someone else said.that doesn't change the fact that the car was sold and adds to the numbers. However, from there onwards it is a matter of how you represent the statistic. Although it represents the number of cars sold it doesn't imply that those cars are being used in Japan, so what the article seems to imply is not exactly valid is it ?

[rija]

Actually not really ! Those figured do not include kei cars which is the highest selling vehicle category in Japan. Except for a few Suzuki kei car models all the others are ICE...so if you are calculating pure numbers wouldn't it be fair to include those as well ?

Of course if you are going with pure numbers you need to add those kei vehicles...then you need to substract hybrid kei vehicles....and it can go on like that. My point is not that it is trend what I want to point out. Hybrids are not dead ends....People are not buying hybrids just because of taxes.....

Hydrogen seems to be taking a huge leap. AND If our Hon. Finance Minister has his own way we will soon be seeing helium cars too ! So then the question is...what would happen to the current Hybrids? Its kind of like for most users, even if it was dirt cheap you still would not want a computer from the last decade...<okay..bit of an exaggeration....I am sure Hybrids won't be that obsolete>

If this is the case what would be fate of those non hybrid cars ? I believe they would go down faster than hybrids.....

PS: I am on the side of hybrid not JUST because I am driving an Aqua.(Actually after driving that I really understand how it saves the fuel wastage) I love that technology as it saves the unnecessary fuel wastage. That is why I believe this technology should be promoted as well as technology behind electric vehicles, hydrogen and helium vehicles. If ICE car can more efficiently save these fossil energy those should be promoted. For the time being I think what we have is the hybrid vehicles.

Edited January 16, 2016 by rija

[gayanath]

Like he said "countries LIKE Sri Lanka" ! A lot of these models get shipped out to other markets through grey importers. But then again like someone else said.that doesn't change the fact that the car was sold and adds to the numbers. However, from there onwards it is a matter of how you represent the statistic. Although it represents the number of cars sold it doesn't imply that those cars are being used in Japan, so what the article seems to imply is not exactly valid is it ?

If you see the Auction site statistics, as an example, there are 11073 Aqua's auctioned for last three months (From 2015/10/17 to 2016/01/15) (there may not be included some amount of one price cars but less in number). Average 3671 per month (not for SL but for the world). 540 out of 11073 are S grade (just registered and de-registered) means 180 per month. Lets assume 500 more per month for very low millage and few months used.

Although the JDM auctions and exports play minor role, those are not such big.

[gayanath]

I should have been clearer...when I meant serviceability I meant as a whole...not necessarily breaking it apart and trying to repair it as an entire unit (granted like I said...I have seen specialist shops in Japan who claim they refurbish and fix CVTs ...I guess it depends on what actually went wrong with it ...no idea how good the repair is or if the cost of repairing/refurbing it is even worth it).

Is there any proper place to repair in Sri Lanka like Japan? ... There are. but non stranded. Likewise, there are non stranded hybrid repair centers also in SL.

(which is what you said as well....now don't go saying what the manuals you get your hand on says...most JDM manuals say "Call your local Toyota dealer" even for something as simple as your power windows needing calibration after removing your battery ! or the smart key needing a battery swap>

I will not ask this question further from you bec, you are an IT guy.

I do not agree with you saying that the concept behind the CVT and Hybrid problems popping up is the same. You yourself actually implied that CVTs are maintainable and can be serviced (with your calculation) whilst Hybrid systems are not ("don't need it" if I was to be exact to what you said).

We have to accept that, although we could extend the battery life by replacing defective cell, ultimately battery could be replaced. You didn't answered why there are several CVT issues in SL though with extra maintenance (oil changes, ..... so and so) .

Now...we all know what your stand on maintenance is (eg. oil changes, etc...yes it is a grand old conspiracy that has held car owners by its testicles for generations !..that was sarcasm by the way). It is interesting to see a different point of view (that was sincerity)...so lets agree to disagree on the matter .

Still no change of my stand until I receive proper data. Any way no argument as you are IT guy.

2. Although Hybrids are efficient, they are not the god sent gift to save this planet. With advances in ICE tech you do get ICE cars that are equally fuel conservative in the real world.

To de discussed in detail in another thread.

4. In a Sri Lankan context, our knowledge and skill bases have not matured enough to actually take care of these things. The learning curve seems to be moderately...well....anyway...

Agreed and its true for all including hybrid/electric/non hybrid, etc. Lets wish to improve very soon.

P.S. : I thought what you could get for 100K or so are used CVT units ? in which case you really don't know where or what it came out of. Just because something has a low mileage it doesn't mean it is good. Especially with something like a CVT.

Yes, agreed. If you buy it with checking warranty, better than the worn out one. Any way I do not like it. I will replace with B/New one.

However, again, I am not a hybrid fan. There are lots of + and - points in hybrids. Likewise newer non hybrids too have + and - points.

[Crishan]

If you see the Auction site statistics, as an example, there are 11073 Aqua's auctioned for last three months (From 2015/10/17 to 2016/01/15) (there may not be included some amount of one price cars but less in number). Average 3671 per month (not for SL but for the world). 540 out of 11073 are S grade (just registered and de-registered) means 180 per month. Lets assume 500 more per month for very low millage and few months used.

Although the JDM auctions and exports play minor role, those are not such big.

Do I smell Cali back in the forum under a new name or is it a car importer or a combination of both?

[iRage]

Of course if you are going with pure numbers you need to add those kei vehicles...then you need to substract hybrid kei vehicles....and it can go on like that. My point is not that it is trend what I want to point out. Hybrids are not dead ends....People are not buying hybrids just because of taxes.....

If this is the case what would be fate of those non hybrid cars ? I believe they would go down faster than hybrids.....

PS: I am on the side of hybrid not JUST because I am driving an Aqua.(Actually after driving that I really understand how it saves the fuel wastage) I love that technology as it saves the unnecessary fuel wastage. That is why I believe this technology should be promoted as well as technology behind electric vehicles, hydrogen and helium vehicles. If ICE car can more efficiently save these fossil energy those should be promoted. For the time being I think what we have is the hybrid vehicles.

(EDIT: Sorry Ijust saw you said "NOT to show that is a trend...just saw the NOT...)

About the first paragraph....uhh....how can you say it is a trend without considering the kei car figures ? If you include those figures then the trend would be use of small city cars..not hybrids Also, what ever the trend is in Japan it really doesn't apply to a context outside of Japan does it ? The way Japanese use their cars, the purchasing cost and the huge tax incentives the govt gives and a strong and competent service base all adds up....

As for Hybrids being a dead-end....well...that is the problem...it hasn't reached the stage of maturity yet where it has become a stable base. The technology keeps changing with every model and alternative technologies keep coming-in that seem to shift the auto manufacturers' focus(es) as well.

True, the ICE base cars would become less and less attractive for the masses with diminishing petroleum sources and environmental concerns...but it has been a stable base for decades upon decades...so until a new stable base is found I believe the ICE will be around for some time and if you look at the trend of the auto manufacturers themselves they still use the ICE as a base (we still a blend of Hybrid and ICE models don't we ? not to mention a lot of R&D in to making the ICE more efficient ? If they were planning on scrapping ICE engines within the next few years, I seriously doubt they would invest in R&D on ICE so much).

As for promoting energy efficiency.. I am all for that....but if Hybrids are the only current solution we have for now ? Well...that is argumentative...but then one could always counter argue asking what one means by being "efficient", especially in respect to a car. Is it the # of kmpl ? or is it the amount of work one can do with 1 joule ? is it what happens with the thermal energy that is just being wasted? Depending on which point you take the tech behind it would be different.

In a Sri Lankan context I do believe that 99% of the people out there buy Hybrids for the low purchase price (where you said taxes). Also, it is a trend in SL....the masses buy whatever is the current trend in the market for "re-sellability" (First they were Corolla Axio 121/141..then Allion/Premio, etc...). As soon as the taxes of electric cars were poised to go up everyone started to turn back...even companies who said they were going to put charging stations around the country were holding back....so promoting environmentally safer tech just went out the window. When Hybrid taxes went up what MOST (NOT ALL) yell about is how their shipment in transit is going to be stranded cause they can't afford it or how now they have to resolve to a cheap indian car rather than a Japanese made nice car. Again, promoting greener tech and safety aspects seem to be at the low end of the spectrum. Like Gayanath brought up that is the unfortunate truth of the car buying public in SL.

Edited January 17, 2016 by iRage

[iRage]

1) Is there any proper place to repair in Sri Lanka like Japan? ... There are. but non stranded. Likewise, there are non stranded hybrid repair centers also in SL.

I will not ask this question further from you bec, you are an IT guy.

2) We have to accept that, although we could extend the battery life by replacing defective cell, ultimately battery could be replaced. You didn't answered why there are several CVT issues in SL though with extra maintenance (oil changes, ..... so and so) .

3) However, again, I am not a hybrid fan. There are lots of + and - points in hybrids. Likewise newer non hybrids too have + and - points.

1) Are they any good ? <Serious question> Like I said before people I know even after getting their cars fixed it seems to be problematic.

2) I think why CVTs fail in SL is a mystery even the manufacturers themselves would like to know What is sad is I also know quite a few CVTs that broke AFTER they did the oil change (two cases were done by the agents). Yes i am counter arguing my own case

Consistent hard use perhaps ? even slow moving jammed traffic here in SL is quite a toll In most other countries I have been in, traffic jams are a slow moving crawl. Whilst in SL, I am finding out that traffic jams are a complete stall followed on by a accelerated dash to close the gap in front of you and then an aggressive brake to a standstill...all before some @-hole creeps in front of you .

Quite a few people I know in Japan have been using their cars with CVT for 150K++ without any of the drama we have to go through (apart from the scheduled recommended maintenance done by the agents they bought the cars from)

What is ironic is that in Tanzania people were not scared of CVTs like in SL and even when I took my RAV4 and Vitz to the Toyota Dealer they were wondering why I wanted to check it out Apparently they don't have much failure of it over there. However, my take is that most Tanzanians wouldn't care a crud and wouldn't even know if it is not working properly

[rija]

(EDIT: Sorry Ijust saw you said "NOT to show that is a trend...just saw the NOT...)

About the first paragraph....uhh....how can you say it is a trend without considering the kei car figures ? If you include those figures then the trend would be use of small city cars..not hybrids Also, what ever the trend is in Japan it really doesn't apply to a context outside of Japan does it ? The way Japanese use their cars, the purchasing cost and the huge tax incentives the govt gives and a strong and competent service base all adds up....

As for Hybrids being a dead-end....well...that is the problem...it hasn't reached the stage of maturity yet where it has become a stable base. The technology keeps changing with every model and alternative technologies keep coming-in that seem to shift the auto manufacturers' focus(es) as well.

True, the ICE base cars would become less and less attractive for the masses with diminishing petroleum sources and environmental concerns...but it has been a stable base for decades upon decades...so until a new stable base is found I believe the ICE will be around for some time and if you look at the trend of the auto manufacturers themselves they still use the ICE as a base (we still a blend of Hybrid and ICE models don't we ? not to mention a lot of R&D in to making the ICE more efficient ? If they were planning on scrapping ICE engines within the next few years, I seriously doubt they would invest in R&D on ICE so much).

As for promoting energy efficiency.. I am all for that....but if Hybrids are the only current solution we have for now ? Well...that is argumentative...but then one could always counter argue asking what one means by being "efficient", especially in respect to a car. Is it the # of kmpl ? or is it the amount of work one can do with 1 joule ? is it what happens with the thermal energy that is just being wasted? Depending on which point you take the tech behind it would be different.

In a Sri Lankan context I do believe that 99% of the people out there buy Hybrids for the low purchase price (where you said taxes). Also, it is a trend in SL....the masses buy whatever is the current trend in the market for "re-sellability" (First they were Corolla Axio 121/141..then Allion/Premio, etc...). As soon as the taxes of electric cars were poised to go up everyone started to turn back...even companies who said they were going to put charging stations around the country were holding back....so promoting environmentally safer tech just went out the window. When Hybrid taxes went up what MOST (NOT ALL) yell about is how their shipment in transit is going to be stranded cause they can't afford it or how now they have to resolve to a cheap indian car rather than a Japanese made nice car. Again, promoting greener tech and safety aspects seem to be at the low end of the spectrum. Like Gayanath brought up that is the unfortunate truth of the car buying public in SL.

If you really want to add kei cars we can add that(Personally I think it is not fair to include kei cars as those cars are in a different category....their engine capacity, their purpose, their safety all different) then it is number one in trend. I do agree. Then what is in the 2nd place ?

ICE cars has a very good base but it has now been significantly challenge by new technologies. I do agree hybrid has not still mature enough. But is it a valid point to demote hybrids or other new fuel based cars like electric, hydrogen and helium ones if we consider their benefits over the ICE vehicles. If ICE cars are more efficient than these new vehicles it should be promoted but what I think is ICE vehicles have some what hit by a dead end....well they may improve it bit....I think that is one main reason behind why vehicle manufactures are looking in to other options like hybrid, electric, solar energy, hydrogen , helium.

You have mentioned "but if Hybrids are the only current solution we have for now ?" It is not ONLY the current solution but it is one of the best practical solution so far available.....OR What else do we have ?

I do agree with you regarding public mentality in car buying. But can we blame them for that? In a money oriented world people are looking to save a bit. So they tend to look for more profitable ways. The policy makers should grab that opportunity to make long term benefits to the country/world. That is why government should promote environmentally friendly solutions. Sadly that is not happening at the moment.(Government may have more short term issues to deal with)

As you have mentioned earlier, there are issues with properly experienced mechanics and repairing places for hybrid and electric vehicles. But those issues might had been their when ICE vehicles were firstly introduced to the country. But now there are lot of knowledgeable people and reliable places around the country. Same thing would happen with hybrids and electrical vehicles....Of course first brave buyers have to suffer a bit.

Edited January 17, 2016 by rija

[iRage]

If you really want to add kei cars we can add that(Personally I think it is not fair to include kei cars as those cars are in a different category....their engine capacity, their purpose, their safety all different) then it is number one in trend. I do agree. Then what is in the 2nd place ?

ICE cars has a very good base but it has now been significantly challenge by new technologies. I do agree hybrid has not still mature enough. But is it a valid point to demote hybrids or other new fuel based cars like electric, hydrogen and helium ones if we consider their benefits over the ICE vehicles. If ICE cars are more efficient than these new vehicles it should be promoted but what I think is ICE vehicles have some what hit by a dead end....well they may improve it bit....I think that is one main reason behind why vehicle manufactures are looking in to other options like hybrid, electric, solar energy, hydrogen , helium.

You have mentioned "but if Hybrids are the only current solution we have for now ?" It is not ONLY the current solution but it is one of the best practical solution so far available.....OR What else do we have ?

I do agree with you regarding public mentality in car buying. But can we blame them for that? In a money oriented world people are looking to save a bit. So they tend to look for more profitable ways. The policy makers should grab that opportunity to make long term benefits to the country/world. That is why government should promote environmentally friendly solutions. Sadly that is not happening at the moment.(Government may have more short term issues to deal with)

As you have mentioned earlier, there are issues with properly experienced mechanics and repairing places for hybrid and electric vehicles. But those issues might had been their when ICE vehicles were firstly introduced to the country. But now there are lot of knowledgeable people and reliable places around the country. Same thing would happen with hybrids and electrical vehicles....Of course first brave buyers have to suffer a bit.

The list has Noahs and Voxy, Sedans and Hatchbacks....so how can you say that that list was an even playing field ? Actually, kei cars are not that much different in safety. I have no idea what you meant by saying kei car safety is different than others....as for the purpose...well don't you think the purpose of a kei car is what 90% of normal cars in SL do 99% of the time ?

As for the Hybrids...well it is obvious you are missing the point. So yeah...whatever...just to clarify a few points you seem to have misunderstood by what I meant:

The whole helium car thing...dude I don't think there are actual Helium cars being developed

When I said ICE has a stable base I wasn't talking about a strong base of uses of ICE ! I was saying that ICE technology is a stable and matured technology.

I didn't demote Hybrids....I was saying it was a transient technology that you can't expect to get the longevity of something like ICE. I didn't say not to buy Hybrids (in fact in a previous post I said even I considered buying one...different context though). What I have always been saying is...be wise about what you are buying...although you don't pay as much as a gasoline/diesel car to buy and it may be cheaper to run there are other cost factors that would hit you. Also, the longevity of current Hybrids with/without these costs are still to be determined (fyi: my cars are 33, 16 and 8 years old).

I did not put down electric cars...I brought up electric cars to show the hoodwinked and deluded mentality of our people. The minute the electric cars were poised to get higher everyone was looking away from it. All the talk of efficiency and green tech went out the window. Personally, I am up for Hydrogen vehicles and electric cars (provided it is mainly solar powered). Oh..and Hydrogen cars only took like 2+ decades to be developed in to a mass commercial stage.

Thank you for sacrificing yourself in order to develop the local skill base (doesn't that support the whole total-cost-of-ownership which we the hybrid-haters (formerly known as Vezel-haters formely-formerly known as Allion/Premio haters formerly-formerly-formerly known as Axio haters) keep talking about ?

I am not that old to know what the transition in SL was like from bull-cart to motor vehicles...but I do remember a time people were afraid of AT transmissions. In the 80s ? and I would say around the mid 90s people didn't have much of an option to go with ATs and the mechanics stepped up to the plate. So lets hope for the best...and that applies for all new cars; there are so many computerized stuff you really do need a lot of specialized knowledge and not just the game' bass approach to fixing them..

[rija]

There is no point going on about kei as this topic is not regarding vehicle classification

iRage:

I was saying it was a transient technology that you can't expect to get the longevity of something like ICE.

If you point out why you say so with valid reasons based on facts rather than hearsays or fear psychosis I will agree with you .

iRage:

Thank you for sacrificing yourself in order to develop the local skill base (doesn't that support the whole total-cost-of-ownership which we the hybrid-haters (formerly known as Vezel-haters formely-formerly known as Allion/Premio haters formerly-formerly-formerly known as Axio haters) keep talking about ?

Here you again miss the point. My point is based on long term benefits to the vehicle owners, environment. Let me be clear here I have no intention to sacrifice myself or other hybrid owners to develop local skills. When their tax is low and fuel efficient is high you can spend that saved amount to repair the hybrid specific problems.

iRage:

Personally, I am up for Hydrogen vehicles and electric cars (provided it is mainly solar powered).

Why have not you included hybrid cars in to that list? As I mentioned above if you can list out valid reasons based on facts rather than hearsays or fear psychosis I will agree with you as I do not get any personal benefits from promoting/demoting hybrid/non hybrid vehicles.

.

[iRage]

There is no point going on about kei as this topic is not regarding vehicle classification

If you point out why you say so with valid reasons based on facts rather than hearsays or fear psychosis I will agree with you .

Here you again miss the point. My point is based on long term benefits to the vehicle owners, environment. Let me be clear here I have no intention to sacrifice myself or other hybrid owners to develop local skills. When their tax is low and fuel efficient is high you can spend that saved amount to repair the hybrid specific problems.

Why have not you included hybrid cars in to that list? As I mentioned above if you can list out valid reasons based on facts rather than hearsays or fear psychosis I will agree with you as I do not get any personal benefits from promoting/demoting hybrid/non hybrid vehicles.

.

1. Well I brought in the kei cars because you were siting statistics to show the "trend" and validity of Hybrids but you left out a significant factor in those statistics.

2. Since you are in to trends...look at the trend of the tech behind Hybrid systems like the Prius for starters the tech of the Hybrid system has changed drastically...everything from the batteries to the ancillary components...and it is changing STILL !

Secondly...there is a huge focus on alternatives like EV cars and Hydrogen cars (and apparently even Helium cars as you seem to believe the SL govt.).

So do you really think the technology in your Aqua or what ever is going to be the same in 10-15 years time ? Furthermore...ICE engines have lasted for decades...do you really believe your Aqua would last that long ? EVEN IF YOU TRIED REALLY REALLY HARD TO ? <It is not just Hybrids..but most normal cars with all these gizmos are facing the same fate>

So if you want facts...just do some reading of what is going on in the auto industry rather than being stuck in the bias of your purchase ! Even the auto manufacturers keep claiming that they are coming up with better and improved and totally new Hybrid systems (sorry to sound insulting but you went down that road)

3. Long term benefits ? ...ENVIRONMENT ???? Seriously !! You want to go down that road ??? At least try to show that you have done some proper research. You might save on fuel burning...and CO2 emissions etc...but there is a whole lot more than that you contribute towards polluting the environment. For example...the batteries can be toxic and needs proper disposal (now in Japan and other coutries of the sort there is legislature to prevent hazardous dumping and procedures to properly handle them...seriously doubt SL has them). That is just one of many....again...do some proper unbiased research to get a proper idea of the true long term impact of Hybrids (when I say Hybrids I mean Hybrids as we know of in the Aqua, Prius, Honda, etc...).Again I am not discounting Hybrids...just saying that it is a transient technology and only the temporary means to reaching an end.

and Long term benefit for owners ??? Where is the benefit in that to the owner ? You saved some money on fuel and purchase to spend on something else ?? so in other words you cancelled out the benefit ?

I enjoyed having this debate with gayanath...but this is just like trying to get an Ostrich to get it head out of a sand pit.

[rija]

1. Well I brought in the kei cars because you were siting statistics to show the "trend" and validity of Hybrids but you left out a significant factor in those statistics.

2. Since you are in to trends...look at the trend of the tech behind Hybrid systems like the Prius for starters the tech of the Hybrid system has changed drastically...everything from the batteries to the ancillary components...and it is changing STILL !

Secondly...there is a huge focus on alternatives like EV cars and Hydrogen cars (and apparently even Helium cars as you seem to believe the SL govt.).

So do you really think the technology in your Aqua or what ever is going to be the same in 10-15 years time ? Furthermore...ICE engines have lasted for decades...do you really believe your Aqua would last that long ? EVEN IF YOU TRIED REALLY REALLY HARD TO ? <It is not just Hybrids..but most normal cars with all these gizmos are facing the same fate>

So if you want facts...just do some reading of what is going on in the auto industry rather than being stuck in the bias of your purchase ! Even the auto manufacturers keep claiming that they are coming up with better and improved and totally new Hybrid systems (sorry to sound insulting but you went down that road)

3. Long term benefits ? ...ENVIRONMENT ???? Seriously !! You want to go down that road ??? At least try to show that you have done some proper research. You might save on fuel burning...and CO2 emissions etc...but there is a whole lot more than that you contribute towards polluting the environment. For example...the batteries can be toxic and needs proper disposal (now in Japan and other coutries of the sort there is legislature to prevent hazardous dumping and procedures to properly handle them...seriously doubt SL has them). That is just one of many....again...do some proper unbiased research to get a proper idea of the true long term impact of Hybrids (when I say Hybrids I mean Hybrids as we know of in the Aqua, Prius, Honda, etc...).Again I am not discounting Hybrids...just saying that it is a transient technology and only the temporary means to reaching an end.

and Long term benefit for owners ??? Where is the benefit in that to the owner ? You saved some money on fuel and purchase to spend on something else ?? so in other words you cancelled out the benefit ?

I enjoyed having this debate with gayanath...but this is just like trying to get an Ostrich to get it head out of a sand pit.

There is no point debating with you....When I ask you about real valid facts you just get annoyed and act like maniac. Actually I do not drag you in to this debate....you just come in.....then when I ask for real fact, you just get annoyed with out giving proper valid answer......you talk about battery dumping which itself has a proper answer.....and without doing proper analysis you just assume that saving of fuel is equal or less than spending on something else.....

Remembering FROG IN THE WELL.......I say Good bye to you my dear friend......

Edited January 17, 2016 by rija

[iRage]

DELETED BECAUSE IT IS POINTLESS TALKING TO SOME PEOPLE....

Edited January 17, 2016 by iRage

[Magnum]

Forget about hybrids, gasolines.......and buy a diesel

[dhanuFB15]

I believe people buy hybrids because its the best bang for the buck. If it was not for Sri Lankan tax scheme hybrids aren't cheap. They are expensive than their non-hybrid equivalent, before taxes.

And if you made your decisions wisely and purchased something else new, instead of more than a decade old Allion 240 , probably you could've avoid many mechanical issues you've mentioned in your other threads in AutoLanka ( http://forum.autolanka.com/topic/17502-check-engine-blink/#entry288167 - There were few more threads from you I'm not gonna post here). Honestly I'm not trying to offend you by any means , just stating the facts that you are not taking into account. Just maintain an expenses record for all the fuel and repair costs and decide yourself which is best when you purchase your next vehicle.

no ppl always preferred hybrids due to trend first, second is cheap, third is caught to the marketing guys, if you are frequently runner more than 100 km per day, hybrid is no problem. That why all cab services and office vehicles moving toward hybrids and they throughout it after get maximum usage in few years

[The Stig]

Do I smell Cali back in the forum under a new name or is it a car importer or a combination of both?

Nahhh, that bugger would never have the b@ll$ to admit that he bought a hybrid for reasons other than environmental factors.

[matroska]

I really wonder why people mention all the 'save the environment' stuff to justify their purchase. It's their damn money their car why do they have to justify the reason they brought it?

[dhanuFB15]

I really wonder why people mention all the 'save the environment' stuff to justify their purchase. It's their damn money their car why do they have to justify the reason they brought it?

save environment is millennium joke of hybrid buyers.....