SUV's : Old vs New (Montero-Montero Sport--Land Cruiser)

[WranglerArctic]

Hi Guys,

Hope everyone's fine after the recent tragedies.-

Sorry for bringing up vehicles already discussed but would you believe it most of the discussions on this subject are quite old. Seems the community have been engrossed in 1.0 engines and hybrids and keis for the last few years.

I have plans to buy an SUV hopefully latter part of the year so doing some early research since i'm usually in and out of the country this year. Requirements: I don't quite need to plough thru the mud basically i wuld love to travel around the country and there are LOT of places in the country where cars can't go and also to visit the families small coconut cultivations in the remote areas.

My budget is around 6,000,000 give or take a few hundred thousands. I have written off korean suvs since they are in reality just big hatchbacks which will not do too well outside well paved roads.  Now for this price i see the following options

Mitsubishi Montero - 3rd Gen 1999/2000 ish Diesel. G Numbers mileage around 250k +

Mitsubishi Montero Sport -  2011--2012 Diesel  KU---KT plates mileage ~100k.  Price slightly high 6.5ish

Toyota Landcruiser Prado (90 series) 1998--2000 yom Diesel 65-/G plates. mileage 250k+

My questions are :

How practical are these vehicle specially the 20 year old ones as daily drivers today - -i will be using them for a daily commute of 25 km (12 up- 12 down) can a non petrol--head person (i.e an aging parent/female sibling) use one as a daily (on times im abroad)  i've heard these old diesel engines can handle a lot but have they reached the point where things go south?

Like Nissan Patrols and minis are the Prados and Monteros subject to cut--and--bud gimmicks ? How safe is it legally to buy one?

i've not traveled in the v60 montero so don't know it's comfort levels. The montero sport is a bit unrefined but OK and looks solid not the most comfy ride. (maybe cos it's actually an suv built on a truck) the land cruiser is quite comfy and surprised how the interior has held after 20 years.

I've also considered getting a kei for the daily runs and an older pajero/big horn for the weekends but the fact i don't have enough parking space - one of the cars will have to sit outside in the rain as well as the deplorable condition of some pajeros and bighorns i had a look at i gave up that idea.

Hilux Surf is something i like (again a bit uncomfortable) but those are really really rare and most of them are local assembled ones.

Guys havent been in touch with the local car scene for a while now so highly value your inputs. Also provide more ideas.

 

 

 

 

 

[iRage]

The Montero/Pajero V60 series is actually pretty comfy. I personally do not like the seats as they are a bit too benchy for my liking but they are nice and plump. The thing...when in good condition...moves like a bat out of hell....compared to its rival models and alternatives in the price range you get a lot more for the price.

The Montero Sport...well its bouncy but not too bad, but bouncy...decently put together...feels heavier and a tab more plasticy than the likes of the Fortuner. I like the ride of the Fortuner better. The Fortuner feels more grounded than the Sport. Don't forget the Fortuner too is based on a truck chassis...

The old 70 series Land Cruiser..yes for its age its surprisingly comfy. Yes..there are plenty of 70 series land cruisers (II and Prados) that have had the body swapped. Quite a few military 70 series LCs that have gotten restored with new bodies around. Some are legal with proper permits and amendments to books...most are not. 

Buying an old diesel...well...as with any engine it will require preemptive maintenance done and should be fine. However, the fine part depends on how well the thing has been taken care of. Some people swap the engines out as they start showing age related issues...a few rebuild them. Either way, you need to check what has been done. I am guessing you want a large diesel SUV for the size (to carry the entire family) and for the long runs ? 

I guess something like a RAV4, X trail, Vitar, etc would be out ? Even if it looks like a SUV with the rear mounted wheel and such ?

 

[matroska]

14 hours ago, WranglerArctic said:

Mitsubishi Montero Sport -  2011--2012 Diesel  KU---KT plates mileage ~100k.  Price slightly high 6.5ish

I've been on one - has a bit of a lorry vibe to it not uncomfortable per se.  Looks tough don't think you can buy one for 6.5 tho. 

9 hours ago, iRage said:

The old 70 series Land Cruiser..yes for its age its surprisingly comfy. Yes..there are plenty of 70 series land cruisers (II and Prados) that have had the body swapped.

irage, The land cruiser nomenclature [at least locally] has always been confusing to me - there's the 70 series and then the 80'series and then there are export models, jdm models, sahara's and so on and on. I think OP is after the 90 series  because he mentions 65 or early english numbers- I have not seen 70 series come with 65 plates or  early english numbers. 

Since these were not military models maybe there are lesser cut and buds on this? No idea though.

Tagging @tiv here to get some more info about the monteros. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by matroska

[iRage]

Aha....I was not paying attention to the details...I thought he was talking about the following when he mentioned 70 Land Cruiser

Okay..so if he is talking about the 90 series LC Prado then yes..not many body swaps (that I know of).

The Land Cruiser...basically you had the old school 40 series which was the military Jeep style workhorse. During that time Toyota also launched a passenger oriented variant which was the Land Cruiser wagon (the J55/5x) to compete with the Nissan Safari which was more passenger friendly. The wagon variant went on to become the J60,J80,J100,J200 series Land Cruisers (which we now call the Sahara, etc...). The J40 in the early 80s was replaced with the J70 series Land Cruiser which again was workhorse type jeep. Although a workhorse many people (at least in Japan) were buying it for passenger use as well as commercial use (dual purpose) because it was reasonably priced (compared to the more luxurious J60 and J80 series station wagons of the time). Needless to say the J70 was a bit too harsh for Japanese roads and with changing regulations for passenger vehicles  and the release of the Mitsubishi Pajero (which was as capable as a LC J70 more passenger friendlier than the J70 but nimbler and cheaper than the J60/80) Toyota decided to release a "station wagon" variant of the J70which was workhorsish but also had some creature comforts and somewhat softened up to suit city use. This was called the Land Cruiser II (came in 3 and 5 door variants)  and was sold in Japan and some other export markets....later on the LC 70 station wagon (now called the Land Cruiser II) was called Land Cruiser Prado in some regions including Japan. As time went by The Land Cruiser Prado became its own little lineup just like the full sized station wagons (J80,100,200). It was placed right in the middle; not as plump and luxurious as the full sized wagon and not as bare-bone and harsh as the J70 jeeps. Thus, overtime we got the J90, J120 and J150 series LC Prados. During this time the J40 replacement, the J70 still continued production to this day in various forms (2-door, troop carrier, truck, double cab). What is interesting is although Toyota introduced the Prado with the hope of replacing the J70 5-door station wagon, there still was a demand for the J70 5-door series wagonvariant. So Toyota keeps on making those as well till this day.

So that is the whole LC story in a moderately long paragraph...there are quite a lot of things missing...but I believe it gives the general idea.

[tiv]

On 4/27/2019 at 5:58 PM, WranglerArctic said:

 

My budget is around 6,000,000 give or take a few hundred thousands. 

Mitsubishi Montero - 3rd Gen 1999/2000 ish Diesel. G Numbers mileage around 250k +

Mitsubishi Montero Sport -  2011--2012 Diesel  KU---KT plates mileage ~100k.  Price slightly high 6.5ish

 

 

 

 

Hi so, about the Mitsubishi’s, personally the above vehicles are really good, but would defeat your purpose on being a reliable tourer, see the montero sport, it’s not going to happen around 6mil, if there are cars, they’d be badly hacked or mileage turned, they take 200,000 plus cars and make em 100,000 and sell em, so if you buy one you ll have  work, most of the true mileage ones are above 7mil , and owners are less likely to part with them cheap. Agent mileage records can also be cheated if you know the right people. 

and an older montero, same story, lot of pending work. Mostly . 

It’s not going to be cheap For both these either, the montero sport has very little aftermarket / recon parts so it’s mostly agent

montero bits are by the hundreds but not cheap either 

 

So you ll be hunting for parts and doing repairs rather than going on this tour,

 

I’d suggest something newer, cheaper and smaller, so you’ll have money to play around with, Incase something goes south. And something that will hold value

[tiv]

Buy these or any old school off roader, if you have like 200,000- 400,000 to do a thorough once over with the mechanicals and certain body bits and at least a week of time to fiddle with, cheers

[Magnum]

If you are considering the J90 series Land Cruiser Prado, make sure you find one thats well looked after. The 1KZ engine found in it produces decent power and it sounds lovely but it could become a complete nightmare if not looked after properly. There are few 90 series LC Prado in SL with the 1KD engine as well, they pack more power but the earlier versions of 1KD engines are known to give injector trouble.

It was also offered with the 5L engine, these are cheap to run and maintain but these were bit under-powered.

[tiv]

5 hours ago, Magnum said:

If you are considering the J90 series Land Cruiser Prado, make sure you find one thats well looked after. The 1KZ engine found in it produces decent power and it sounds lovely but it could become a complete nightmare if not looked after properly. There are few 90 series LC Prado in SL with the 1KD engine as well, they pack more power but the earlier versions of 1KD engines are known to give injector trouble.

It was also offered with the 5L engine, these are cheap to run and maintain but these were bit under-powered.

The 150 Prado was also offered with a 5l, and they are raped by keis three wheels and buses on the road until they pick up speed.

Edited April 30, 2019 by tiv

[john cooper]

18 hours ago, tiv said:

The 150 Prado was also offered with a 5l, and they are raped by keis three wheels and buses on the road until they pick up speed.

150 with 5L ???

With the 1KD i have remapped the ECU get power to pull the trailer.

unsure which Japanese engineer decided to plant 5L into the 150.

[Magnum]

21 hours ago, tiv said:

The 150 Prado was also offered with a 5l, and they are raped by keis three wheels and buses on the road until they pick up speed.

 

2 hours ago, john cooper said:

150 with 5L ???

With the 1KD i have remapped the ECU get power to pull the trailer.

unsure which Japanese engineer decided to plant 5L into the 150.

The 5L version Prado wasn't offered in Japan as it was designed for the developing markets. It was meant to be a low maintenance, cheap to run Prado and if i'm not wrong it came with lesser features as well.

Which version of Prado do you have? Is it the KDJ150? Some people advice not to tune/remap ECU of vehicles with 1KD due to some reason relating to the injectors but one of my friend got a remap done for Hiace and so far it's fine 

[Clark'sson]

I resently bought a Prado uk model with the 1KD engine.

I took a look at a 5L with manual transmission. The 5L never matches the 150 and stand clear of it. Frankly the 5L is being used for UN (united nations) models.

Anyway the 1KD atleast in UK spec has great pulling power. Didnt drag a trailer around but with 7 adults sitting comfortably climbing upto nuwaraeliya didnt even break a sweat. Mainly due to the high torque figures it passes other vehicles like nothing.

The 5L diesel engine has only has 106hp and 197nm of torque.

The petrol G frontier has 158hp and and 246nm of torque.

The company model 1KD diesel  has 170hp and 352nm of torque.

While the UK (england) model 1KD diesel has 190hp and 491nm of torque.

So that makes the difference.

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by Clark'sson

[WranglerArctic]

Thanks  for the honest opinions guys.

On 4/27/2019 at 5:37 PM, iRage said:

I am guessing you want a large diesel SUV for the size (to carry the entire family) and for the long runs ? 

I guess something like a RAV4, X tr. ail, Vitar, etc would be out ? Even if it looks like a SUV with the rear mounted wheel and such ?

Yes the  purpose is as you mentioned. Would the pseudo SUVs you mentioned cut it - i always thought the Rav 4's Xtrails with their 'blutton-4wd' were just there for the show. I anyway drove an Xtrail and it felt  like a sluggard. I'm not in for extreme off-roading  so maybe these will be ok - I guess a fairly new Rav4 is within my budget. one thing i didnt like with the  rav4s and xtrails were theyre petrol and a friend who had a petrol suv told me how underpowered it was and the insanely low fuel efficiency it had compared to diesels which is why i was interested in a big ass diesel suv with a bit of power and space but it looks like a risky choice

On 4/28/2019 at 7:02 AM, iRage said:

So that is the whole LC story in a moderately long paragraph

this is a wonderful summary - a few hours worth of googling in one paragraph. Thanks man!

p.s im looking at the 90 series not the 'box prado'

On 4/29/2019 at 8:17 AM, tiv said:

So you ll be hunting for parts and doing repairs rather than going on this tour,

 

I’d suggest something newer, cheaper and smaller, so you’ll have money to play around with, Incase something goes south. And something that will hold value

thanks for the detailed reply tiv , as you say it might be good to avoid the venerable 20 year olds and about the montero sport i did notice the high difference in price in some models i saw several for sale in ik###.lk for like 6.3 to 6.7 hence my interest but some of them actually were from car sales and mileage was around 100k so might be tampered. So at 200k then i guess we are looking at some hefty repairs.

What other options do i have then? : specially if looking at something newer today i actually searched the classified sites for the vitara and guess what theyre very rare and 90% of the ads were for the 2019 model which is well within my budget but it has a 1 l turbo and i really don't know how you can call it an suv with that sized engine and ground clearance seemed to be only bit better than cars. Funnily they even have a 4wd version for the new vitara but it seems to come with the 1.4 L engine and not the 1 L .

On 4/30/2019 at 5:46 AM, Magnum said:

make sure you find one thats well looked after. The 1KZ engine found in it produces decent power and it sounds lovely but it could become a complete nightmare if not looked after properly.

ok thats  a bit bothersome i do beleive most older suvs re not properly taken care since doing a bit of hunting it seems mostly the type who own them are not the people who do care.

 

49 minutes ago, Clark'sson said:

Frankly the 5L is being used for UN (united nations) models

 I read in a pakistani forum that the 5L is mostly for south asia they have a lot of them with 5L's there too

 

 

Thank you guys for the input now i'm a little wiser

a) an older montero/prado might probably be a bad idea unless i have LOTS of time to spend on it

b) the good montero sports are about 1 mil above my budget

sooooo maybe i should look at smaller newer models? RAV4? Vitara [not the new one] ? What else any suggestions

or maybe rob a bank and increase my budget ?

[iRage]

7 hours ago, Magnum said:

 

The 5L version Prado wasn't offered in Japan as it was designed for the developing markets. It was meant to be a low maintenance, cheap to run Prado and if i'm not wrong it came with lesser features as well.

Which version of Prado do you have? Is it the KDJ150? Some people advice not to tune/remap ECU of vehicles with 1KD due to some reason relating to the injectors but one of my friend got a remap done for Hiace and so far it's fine 

Well...still it was some engineer who decided to put it in there...that thing (5L) barely makes a 100hp. The 5L was originally intended for the 3-door, which was later on dropped. I don't think the 5L did that well in any  market. I would be surprised if they still offer it anywhere.

[iRage]

6 hours ago, WranglerArctic said:

one thing i didnt like with the  rav4s and xtrails were theyre petrol and a friend who had a petrol suv told me how underpowered it was and the insanely low fuel efficiency it had compared to diesels which is why i was interested in a big ass diesel suv with a bit of power and space but it looks like a risky choice

Okay....not really...but I think I understand what your friend was trying to say....the 30 series RAV4 petrol has about 195hp and it is actually pretty quick. The CRV is around the same and also pretty quick. The X32 series X-Trail has a 2.0L NA engine and is pretty underpowered for the vehicle size. The Hybrid is a little better. The difference between these and the diesels is a matter of torque. Even the diesel variants of the above crossovers have much more torque. So under load the diesel variants have a bit more grunt. but then again the old diesels you a re looking at have a very narrow power and torque band as well..being diesels they are low down in the rev range. So that makes things a bit easier. 

To be honest...if all you are going to do is go on moderate trails and just road driving..the crossovers would do rather well...

All these crossovers fall withing the 6 - 8 kmpl range in the city and 12-15ish on pure highway driving.

But if you look in to how much you are planning on driving and the possible maintenance that would be needed for maintaining an old  unknown diesel engine..the total cost of ownership might end up being equal (i.e. the cost of fuel and maintenance etc would equal out between the two vehicles even if the petrol cross over does a bit lesser on fuel because you wont use the car that much)

Also, the corssover would be much easier for your family to use around town when you are not there.

[kmeeg]

I'm nowhere expert in this field, an amateur. But can't resist sharing this video ?

 

[Clark'sson]

kThe low torque figures and power coming at high revs and the insane fuel economy is whats bad with the petrols.

With the low torque some petrols like the 2L na xtrail struggle to carry its own weight.

Combine that and the high reving makes it difficult to use and to fill up.

Did you consider the 2008 montero sport its kind of a better option than the petrol rav4s outlanders xtrails vitaras and crvs

Anyway my advice would be to go for a montero or prado which has been well looked after. 

Using them for some time now and hasnt missed a beat. 

But keep some green around Rs.200 000 for the unexpected. And get the niggles sorted out just after the purchase.

 

[matroska]

17 hours ago, WranglerArctic said:

classified sites for the vitara and guess what theyre very rare and 90% of the ads were for the 2019 model which is well within my budget but it has a 1 l turbo and i really don't know how you can call it an suv with that sized engine

 

18 hours ago, Clark'sson said:

The 5L diesel engine has only has 106hp and 197nm of torque.

The vitara OP mentioned above - the 1L turbo charged booster-jet version actually has 109 HP :a teeny bit more than the 5L diesel.   less torque though 

Edited May 2, 2019 by matroska

[matroska]

11 hours ago, iRage said:

X-Trail has a 2.0L NA engine and is pretty underpowered for the vehicle size.

I have driven an X-Trail T30 ...if Hodor from Game of thrones became a car he would be the Xtrail ...it was that dimwitted 

[iRage]

8 hours ago, Clark'sson said:

Combine that and the high reving makes it difficult to use and to fill up.

I don't get this....most of the crossovers get 6-8kmpl in the city..which is not that much lower and even the same as most of the sedans around so it is not that more expensive than a sedan (granted the subsidized price of diesel and an old diesel getting lets say 10 ? in the city would provide per tank wallet-friendliness). Been using CRVs and RAV4s in SL for ages and it has not cost that much more nor less than the sedans the company has. You really don't have to rev that high....most of the power comes in at about 3500revs and most of the torque comes in at about the same point in most of these crossovers, the former of course does help in SL driving. The diesels of course gets most of the torque around half those revs whilst the max power will be reached around the same as the crossover. So yeah..it is not about power but torque in these situation. Also, with the CVTs, when driving on the highway  these things settle down at a rather low rev range.

The issue is going to be finding a good example of these old diesels...people do not want to get rid of good ones and when they do it is typically on the higher end of the price spectrum. 

So, the bottom line is, considering what the vehicle is going to be used for and how often; the question that the OP needs to ask himself is if the requirements for an old diesel really justifiable when considering the long term total cost of ownership (so you would need to balance out costs of maintenance of high mileage diesels vs a mid mileage petrol...). Also, if you are looking for a easier car to drive around town for your parents...then some of those crossovers are easier for them.

 

1 minute ago, matroska said:

I have driven an X-Trail T30 ...if Hodor from Game of thrones became a car he would be the Xtrail ...it was that dimwitted 

If you think that was bad....you should try the new one in pure petrol form  To be honest I don't think the 2L was bad in the T30...what let it down was a twitchy gearbox which was not geared to handle a heavy, boxy body. So driving around town was not the easiest. The CRV and RAV4 of the time were similarly powered the 2L variants). The RAV4 had a slight weight advantage and the CR-V had a pretty sweet engine and a good gearbox (although the weird hill climbing thingy was a bit of an annoyance).

[kush]

I know this is something not in your wish list, why not a Kia Sorento

There are plenty around 2011-13 with decent mileage and proper records

They are fast enough and economical too. Have not heard of horrendous reliability issues either.

 

 

[john cooper]

On 5/1/2019 at 5:21 PM, john cooper said:

150 with 5L ???

With the 1KD i have remapped the ECU get power to pull the trailer.

unsure which Japanese engineer decided to plant 5L into the 150.

Mine is a B/N purchased here in NZ just before Toyota planted the 1GD engine. mine has done high k's (close to 200k) but full-service history.

I am the 2nd owner prior to me this use to be a company car done long runs (about 40k annual) 

This was fitted with a catch can when I bought (stop clogging EGR and manifold)

I have installed the remap kit and I have done about 50k and never missed the beat. 

DYNO test indicates about 500Nm at 2000rpm and I am happy about that, as per the manufacturer this is safe to push about 550NM but I am ok what I have got.

 

Pre 2012 1KD's having the injector issue which caused some of the engines to fail so advise to change injector seals every 40k.

regards,

JC