Hybrid Vs Non-Hybrid

[RViji]

What is the Prius Shuttle?

Station wagon model of Prius,with more luggage space I guess.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2011/03/09/business/prius-station-wagon-models-set-to-debut-will-vie-with-honda/#.VA1o8xC6wng

Edited September 8, 2014 by RViji

[iRage]

I had a look at the trunk of a Prius(Limo) at a promotion event once,and it was quite small although it looked quite big on the outside.Not even 2 suitcases could fit in there.

Is it true that Prius hybrids are not even used for Taxis in Japan,because they are not comfortable and spacious enough?

May be thats why they introduced the Prius Shuttle.

There are plenty of Prius taxis in the city. Granted there are still more Crown/Crown Comfort and Nissan Crew and Cedric taxi variants and quite a few run on CNG/LPG/etc... I don't think the choice is because of comfort but or or less because of space(however the Crown and Cedric taxis have plusher seats) but mostly because the non Prius options are more versatile.

There is no such thing called a Prius Shuttle. It is Prius Alpha and the Fit Shuttle. At the time of introduction both cars were introduced as Hybrid station wagon options in 5 or 7 seat configurations. During that time cars like the Marx X Zio, Wish and especially the Stream were becoming quite popular. So they were not necessarily introduced as Taxi models (I rarely see Prius Alpha taxis and so far have never seen a Fit Shuttle taxi).

Edited September 8, 2014 by iRage

[waka]

The difference is that Hybrids are just as economical in town as they are on long runs and since most sri lankans spend more time at low speed, they will always have an economy advantage. The "high risk of electric leaks" in accidents is bullshit, that's a tale created by people like yourself who bought Allions and Axios and were faced with the new concept of depreciation, to ensure that their car's maintain some resale value in the face of the hybrid invasion.

I am not sure about fire from an electric leak, because hybrid system is so sophisticated to prevent fire hazards. The issue with accidents for a hybrid vehicle is that the system is so complex, it is hard to recover the damage of the hybrid system and you have to argue with insurance company.

Risk is so high with a rear-end collision, due to battery location. Even in a normal accident, hybrid inverter might have issues with the brunt of the collision.

[ramishkad]

I am not sure about fire from an electric leak, because hybrid system is so sophisticated to prevent fire hazards. The issue with accidents for a hybrid vehicle is that the system is so complex, it is hard to recover the damage of the hybrid system and you have to argue with insurance company.

Risk is so high with a rear-end collision, due to battery location. Even in a normal accident, hybrid inverter might have issues with the brunt of the collision.

Insurance premiums are typically higher for hybrid vehicles I think for the reasons you mentioned.

Also, I think to have fun driving any hybrid, you need to turn off/switch view to hide the fuel efficiency stats. Otherwise you will subconsciously be trying to maximize that and eventually become a road hog.

[waka]

Insurance premiums are typically higher for hybrid vehicles I think for the reasons you mentioned.

Also, I think to have fun driving any hybrid, you need to turn off/switch view to hide the fuel efficiency stats. Otherwise you will subconsciously be trying to maximize that and eventually become a road hog.

Sometimes damages to the inverter from the brunt of an accident undetectable straight away, so you won't get the claim for that damage. There will be malfunctions in the hybrid system and fuel efficiency will go down.

[RViji]

Sometimes damages to the inverter from the brunt of an accident undetectable straight away, so you won't get the claim for that damage. There will be malfunctions in the hybrid system and fuel efficiency will go down.

battery damage from rear end collision sounds realistic,is this a personal experience?

About the Inverter,I think it was part of a official Recall,some problems due to continuos high operating temperatures.

http://autos.jdpower.com/content/blog-post/9lbtX6b/recall-roundup-toyota-recalls-700k-prius-hybrids-gm-recalls-more-than-600k-cobalt-g5-compacts.htm

did you try contacting Toyot@ lanka agents,may be they fix for free.

And any idea what is the full-insurance premium for a new Prius machan?

Edited September 9, 2014 by RViji

[bycap]

battery damage from rear end collision sounds realistic,is this a personal experience?

About the Inverter,I think it was part of a official Recall,some problems due to continuos high operating temperatures.

http://autos.jdpower.com/content/blog-post/9lbtX6b/recall-roundup-toyota-recalls-700k-prius-hybrids-gm-recalls-more-than-600k-cobalt-g5-compacts.htm

did you try contacting Toyot@ lanka agents,may be they fix for free.

And any idea what is the full-insurance premium for a new Prius machan?

One of my friend has one (not so new) and he said its around 120,000+ valuation is 3.9 mil

so you can have a rough idea.

[JadeyBlitzen]

I've been using a Honda Insight for two and a half years and 24k kms this is my take on the topic.

Buying a hybrid here is an interesting proposition cos you can get a bigger newer car for less. I've seen a lot of maruti owners and first time car buyers going for hybrids cos they fell for the whole 40 km/l claims. It really wont, unless you have a good understanding about the system so you can get the best out of it. for example its a cycle of charging and discharging the battery that gives you the claimed economy. If you don't brake gradually or drive downhill or coast to charge the system automatically and then accelerate hard enough to kick the motor in or drive in full electric mode or idle only on battery power to use up that charge hybrids are no more economical than regular cars. Honda hybrid owners (except 2013+ fit and vezel) especially complain how they aren't getting the expected mileage. That's because they are not driving them how they should be driven. But if you do know what you are doing its not that difficult to surpass the manufacturers claims. I get 25-28 km/l regularly on empty roads and 16.5 in and out of colombo during rush hour.

Then there's the performance. dc motors have crazy torque but dont rev very fast. so hybrids offer some quite usable low end power. most of the time it feels like driving a big diesel. In the case of 2nd gen honda hybrids 0-40 acceleration is so rapid it gives people the impression the car is much faster than it actually is. It really is rapid. but after 60-80 there's very little power. Also hybrids at this level run out of puff when their batteries are fully discharged, so prolonged pedal to the metal driving with sharp braking will lower the performance. But on a full battery standing starts and sneaky low to medium speed overtaking maneuvers are a real delight.

If I were to sum up the ownership experience I could say hybrids aren’t really worth it. I’ve lost about 500k in depreciation and It could get higher if I don’t sell it right away. Some people have lost about a million in some hybrids and a whole lot more on the bigger hybrid cars, like the Toyota crown. So hybrids definitely depreciate faster compared to conventional models, unless they are based on conventional models. Then they make their non hybrid models depreciate even faster e.g. lexus rx. So if you are someone who moans over depreciation hybrids will make you cry. Fuel savings won’t help unless you do several thousand a month.

The standing acceleration quietness and day to day economy are very appealing, but there’s little else to make hybrids an attractive proposition here. For me this might be my last hybrid for a while. Downsized turbo engines and stop start functions in newer cars are appealing to the economy minded motorist in me.

[Magnum]

If you need a million dollar car to get laid, i feel bad for you son

[sathyajithj99]

Yah ,poor me

[bycap]

I've been using a Honda Insight for two and a half years and 24k kms this is my take on the topic.

Buying a hybrid here is an interesting proposition cos you can get a bigger newer car for less. I've seen a lot of maruti owners and first time car buyers going for hybrids cos they fell for the whole 40 km/l claims. It really wont, unless you have a good understanding about the system so you can get the best out of it. for example its a cycle of charging and discharging the battery that gives you the claimed economy. If you don't brake gradually or drive downhill or coast to charge the system automatically and then accelerate hard enough to kick the motor in or drive in full electric mode or idle only on battery power to use up that charge hybrids are no more economical than regular cars. Honda hybrid owners (except 2013+ fit and vezel) especially complain how they aren't getting the expected mileage. That's because they are not driving them how they should be driven. But if you do know what you are doing its not that difficult to surpass the manufacturers claims. I get 25-28 km/l regularly on empty roads and 16.5 in and out of colombo during rush hour.

Then there's the performance. dc motors have crazy torque but dont rev very fast. so hybrids offer some quite usable low end power. most of the time it feels like driving a big diesel. In the case of 2nd gen honda hybrids 0-40 acceleration is so rapid it gives people the impression the car is much faster than it actually is. It really is rapid. but after 60-80 there's very little power. Also hybrids at this level run out of puff when their batteries are fully discharged, so prolonged pedal to the metal driving with sharp braking will lower the performance. But on a full battery standing starts and sneaky low to medium speed overtaking maneuvers are a real delight.

If I were to sum up the ownership experience I could say hybrids aren’t really worth it. I’ve lost about 500k in depreciation and It could get higher if I don’t sell it right away. Some people have lost about a million in some hybrids and a whole lot more on the bigger hybrid cars, like the Toyota crown. So hybrids definitely depreciate faster compared to conventional models, unless they are based on conventional models. Then they make their non hybrid models depreciate even faster e.g. lexus rx. So if you are someone who moans over depreciation hybrids will make you cry. Fuel savings won’t help unless you do several thousand a month.

The standing acceleration quietness and day to day economy are very appealing, but there’s little else to make hybrids an attractive proposition here. For me this might be my last hybrid for a while. Downsized turbo engines and stop start functions in newer cars are appealing to the economy minded motorist in me.

This is very descriptive. Once I drove a honda insight. I'm actually new to this hybrid business. when I take the steering, fuel economy was 12.9

when I finish it was 12.1

There was a relatively high incline, believe me car was stopped at one point. I was pushing the pedal to bottom completely. Then I switched off the AC, car starts to move slowly.

Edited September 10, 2014 by bycap

[kush]

If I were to sum up the ownership experience I could say hybrids aren’t really worth it. I’ve lost about 500k in depreciation and It could get higher if I don’t sell it right away. Some people have lost about a million in some hybrids and a whole lot more on the bigger hybrid cars, like the Toyota crown. So hybrids definitely depreciate faster compared to conventional models, unless they are based on conventional models. Then they make their non hybrid models depreciate even faster e.g. lexus rx. So if you are someone who moans over depreciation hybrids will make you cry. Fuel savings won’t help unless you do several thousand a month.

Bro I don’t think you had a bad deal by losing 500k, people who brought cars 3-4 years back lost whether they were hybrid or not.

I know of a friend who lost a over million on a Allion

Finally used car market in SL is becoming sensible, days of using a car for few years and selling at a profit is long gone and I hope it will remain same.

I do agree with you on the fact that hybrid are not worth unless you clock high milage

[RViji]

Then there's the performance. dc motors have crazy torque but dont rev very fast. so hybrids offer some quite usable low end power. most of the time it feels like driving a big diesel. In the case of 2nd gen honda hybrids 0-40 acceleration is so rapid it gives people the impression the car is much faster than it actually is. It really is rapid. but after 60-80 there's very little power. Also hybrids at this level run out of puff when their batteries are fully discharged, so prolonged pedal to the metal driving with sharp braking will lower the performance. But on a full battery standing starts and sneaky low to medium speed overtaking maneuvers are a real delight.

If I were to sum up the ownership experience I could say hybrids aren’t really worth it. I’ve lost about 500k in depreciation and It could get higher if I don’t sell it right away. Some people have lost about a million in some hybrids and a whole lot more on the bigger hybrid cars, like the Toyota crown. So hybrids definitely depreciate faster compared to conventional models, unless they are based on conventional models. Then they make their non hybrid models depreciate even faster e.g. lexus rx. So if you are someone who moans over depreciation hybrids will make you cry. Fuel savings won’t help unless you do several thousand a month.

The standing acceleration quietness and day to day economy are very appealing, but there’s little else to make hybrids an attractive proposition here. For me this might be my last hybrid for a while. Downsized turbo engines and stop start functions in newer cars are appealing to the economy minded motorist in me.

I think the depreciation is also caused by oversupply,too many carbrokers in Japan involved in the business.

About the power of hybrid system,I saw an interesting article about a test on the latest Prius GenIII(ZVW30) by the German Automobile Association.

"The maximum whole system performance of the Prius III (100 kW) stands only for few seconds to max. 3 minutes . Basically only so long, until the battery is empty. Then the car has only the performance of the internal-combustion engine (73 kW). Only after some trip with less than 73 kW the full system performance is available again for another similar short time. This disadvantage becomes apparent with longer trips with full power in the mountain and particularly also with full power while pulling a trailer. However, with the overtaking or generally short-term acceleration it does not strike because afterwards and before it the battery is loaded in each case again."

So if you are going uphill,or with heavy load,suddenly you will feel the drop of power from 100KW to 73KW when the battery runs out within 3minutes max.

I agree with you about Downsized turbo engines and stop start functions ,which is mainstream Petrol engine in Europe compared to hybrids.In fact it seems Toyota is also going in this direction,with the newly revealed Downsized 2L Lexus engine with turbo as shown in this video http://clicccar.com/2014/08/19/264845/.

Edited September 10, 2014 by RViji

[The Don]

To be honest there are a number of different approaches to efficiency and full hybrid systems combine both stop start features with energy recovery. Now its this energy recovery which gives hybrid systems an edge over any other system which uses fuel burn engines, because a lot of energy is lost in braking. Hopefully systems will evolve to recover energy from heat/ cooling system as well, lost trying to keep the engine cool.

Hybrids are here to stay, until battery technology and infrastructure evolves to embrace full electric versions. Full electrics benefit from further efficiency gains from mass electricity production, and reducing mechanical loss through axles etc and of course gearboxes.

[tinyman]

One of my friend has one (not so new) and he said its around 120,000+ valuation is 3.9 mil

so you can have a rough idea.

I have a 3rd Gen Prius and the Insurance premium is 66k. they impose excess on battery after 5 years from the date of manufacturing

Car has done 68k so far and averages around 18kmpl. recently it gave me 22+ milage (on one instance 26), so I guess that battery is functioning fine.

the reason to buy hybrid is mostly the price advantage & the trend. With the full duty and cost a normal car of same category will cost much more than a hybrid,which should also be considered in comparing the overall benefit.

[RViji]

I have a 3rd Gen Prius and the Insurance premium is 66k. they impose excess on battery after 5 years from the date of manufacturing

Car has done 68k so far and averages around 18kmpl. recently it gave me 22+ milage (on one instance 26), so I guess that battery is functioning fine.

the reason to buy hybrid is mostly the price advantage & the trend. With the full duty and cost a normal car of same category will cost much more than a hybrid,which should also be considered in comparing the overall benefit.

machan why does the battery age have anything to do with insurance cost,is the battery covered by insurance? i thought it was not,since it depreciates like tyres or brakes.

I think even if you buy at a Toyota Agent,the warranty for hybrid components is 160,000km or 8 years,whichever comes first.

Do you still plan to keep the car after your next 100,000km?or how much do you expect to sell it for?(sorry to be too straightforward)

And are you driving on flat roads or also upcountry(where you should feel the sudden lack of power -27KW/36HP once the battery becomes empty within max 3 minutes )?

Edited September 10, 2014 by RViji

[Magnum]

I also have a hybrid. But I regret why I bought that. I have to pay luxury tax for 7 years which will cost around 550K for 7 years and the battery will have to replace in about 7 years which will cost around the same price. Total cost will be around 1.1 million without any expenses on maintaining. So I suggest to stick with non hybrid.

So hybrids are also charged with luxury tax, i had that doubt for sometime. bdw mind telling what hybrid you are referring to here? Camry? Crown?

[tinyman]

machan why does the battery age have anything to do with insurance cost,is the battery covered by insurance? i thought it was not,since it depreciates like tyres or brakes.

I think even if you buy at a Toyota Agent,the warranty for hybrid components is 160,000km or 8 years,whichever comes first.

Do you still plan to keep the car after your next 100,000km?or how much do you expect to sell it for?(sorry to be too straightforward)

And are you driving on flat roads or also upcountry(where you should feel the sudden lack of power -27KW/36HP once the battery becomes empty within max 3 minutes )?

I go to Kandy every weekend, mostly via Katunayake Highway > Kurunegala and weekdays Colombo city driving.

So far I didn't notice any such drop in power, may be I've not paid much attention to that.

I would sell it after another 2 years down the time.

[Komisiripala]

So hybrids are also charged with luxury tax, i had that doubt for sometime. bdw mind telling what hybrid you are referring to here? Camry? Crown?

The Prius falls under the luxury tax bracket also no? Due to the 1800cc displacement? Is it marginally over or under 1800?

Because the 1802cc primera camino was taxed, but 1797cc Integra wasn't.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Komisiripala

[JadeyBlitzen]

I think the depreciation is also caused by oversupply,too many carbrokers in Japan involved in the business.

About the power of hybrid system,I saw an interesting article about a test on the latest Prius GenIII(ZVW30) by the German Automobile Association.

"The maximum whole system performance of the Prius III (100 kW) stands only for few seconds to max. 3 minutes . Basically only so long, until the battery is empty. Then the car has only the performance of the internal-combustion engine (73 kW). Only after some trip with less than 73 kW the full system performance is available again for another similar short time. This disadvantage becomes apparent with longer trips with full power in the mountain and particularly also with full power while pulling a trailer. However, with the overtaking or generally short-term acceleration it does not strike because afterwards and before it the battery is loaded in each case again."

So if you are going uphill,or with heavy load,suddenly you will feel the drop of power from 100KW to 73KW when the battery runs out within 3minutes max.

I agree with you about Downsized turbo engines and stop start functions ,which is mainstream Petrol engine in Europe compared to hybrids.In fact it seems Toyota is also going in this direction,with the newly revealed Downsized 2L Lexus engine with turbo as shown in this video http://clicccar.com/2014/08/19/264845/.

I've noticed this sudden power drop. its like the battery has a substantial charge but the system isn't updated on this fact. When I accelerate hard after a traffic jam or a hilly ascent sometimes I don't get the power i expect for the charge in the battery. Sometimes the system works the other way and vomits out all the charge when the battery's running low and leaves me with no charge for the next stop and start and the system goes into force charging at idle and on the move. Surely with a bit more R & D the system could be made more foolproof.

While on the subject of batteries, I believe battery failures are mostly due to overheating and not being discharged fully regularly enough. overheating could occur from the cooling fans inside the battery failing (haven't heard of such an instance personally) or quite possibly the cooling vents and ducts being blocked. vents for the battery on the prius and insight are on the side of the back seat. So make sure you aren't resting your back on this. Also I've heard the leading cause of battery failure in any rechargeable electrical device is overcharging and not discharging fully. So if you never drive hard enough or stay at rest long enough for this to happen often the battery could develop what is known as 'false capacity' which will only try to maintain charge from say 80-100% and not hold any charge below that 20%. Anyway considering the low speeds the locals drive their hybrids at thinking they are saving fuel its quite possible to not use that charge at all. A friend of mine at toyota lanka says they are now replacing cells instead of the whole battery which is good news. But I guess with a little know how we can preserve the batteries for years to come.

Bro I don’t think you had a bad deal by losing 500k, people who brought cars 3-4 years back lost whether they were hybrid or not.

I know of a friend who lost a over million on a Allion

Finally used car market in SL is becoming sensible, days of using a car for few years and selling at a profit is long gone and I hope it will remain same.

I do agree with you on the fact that hybrid are not worth unless you clock high milage

Actually all cars above 2mil attract noticeable deprecation increasing exponentially with the value of the car. But I doubt a non hybrid like the 141 axio would have gone down in value at 200k a year every year.

[kush]

Actually all cars above 2mil attract noticeable deprecation increasing exponentially with the value of the car. But I doubt a non hybrid like the 141 axio would have gone down in value at 200k a year every year.

Axio in 2011 was around Rs. 4.2-4.5 Mn. (2007-2008 Model) how much can you get now Rs. 3.2 - 3.4 Mn.

Allion in 2011 was around Rs. 5.0-5.5 Mn. (2007-2008 Model) how much can you get now Rs. 3.8 - 4.2 Mn.

Do your maths

[Ruslan]

The Prius falls under the luxury tax bracket also no? Due to the 1800cc displacement? Is it marginally over or under 1800?

Because the 1802cc primera camino was taxed, but 1797cc Integra wasn't.

No Machan, it's below 1800CC, 1794CC or something if i'm remember correct

[Magnum]

No Machan, it's below 1800CC, 1794CC or something if i'm remember correct

The Prius falls under the luxury tax bracket also no? Due to the 1800cc displacement? Is it marginally over or under 1800?

Because the 1802cc primera camino was taxed, but 1797cc Integra wasn't.

The Prius is 1797CC

Weird the Primera is over the 1800CC bracket, usually the CC is kept close to the margin and not over it

[RViji]

I've noticed this sudden power drop. its like the battery has a substantial charge but the system isn't updated on this fact. When I accelerate hard after a traffic jam or a hilly ascent sometimes I don't get the power i expect for the charge in the battery. Sometimes the system works the other way and vomits out all the charge when the battery's running low and leaves me with no charge for the next stop and start and the system goes into force charging at idle and on the move. Surely with a bit more R & D the system could be made more foolproof.

.

A friend of mine at toyota lanka says they are now replacing cells instead of the whole battery which is good news. But I guess with a little know how we can preserve the batteries for years to come.

Hi,

This inconsistant torque behavior of having less or more power than you expect from the acc. pedal position(during critical situations like overtaking,lane changing,bumper to bumper traffic jam) feels a bit risky to me.

So Toy Lanka already started changing battery cells now for older generation Prius?do you have information about the cost per cell or complete?

And I still dont understand why insurance companies charge more money depending on battery age,is it covered by insurance?

Edited September 11, 2014 by RViji

[The Don]

Axio in 2011 was around Rs. 4.2-4.5 Mn. (2007-2008 Model) how much can you get now Rs. 3.2 - 3.4 Mn.

Allion in 2011 was around Rs. 5.0-5.5 Mn. (2007-2008 Model) how much can you get now Rs. 3.8 - 4.2 Mn.

Do your maths

Axio in 2011 was 3.2 - sometimes 4 million for the G grade, now goes for 3.2-2.7

Allion in 2011 was 4.2 to 4.7 and now goes for 3.7 to .4.2

I must point that these prices coincided with a tax break and then a subsequent increase whick skewed prices.

Also you have to accept whatever the model, you will always have to accept initial depreciation.

But there is nothing like the Civic Hybrid, was 4.5 to 4.7 and yesterday I saw one for 3.2