Project A72V

[Davy]

Well done! ?

It has to be the water pump, because that belt doesn't drive anything else, and since the alternator bearing is new. While you had the timing belt cover off for the repair, it would have been wise to replace the water pump as well. These engines come with a water pump that has a steel impeller that corrodes over time. So if the pump has not been replaced for a long time, I suggest putting in a new one. 

As for buying good tools, I have learnt from my mistakes as well. In your case, the actual torque wrench might have been okay, but the seller was not. If it was eBay, you can lodge a dispute and get your money back. 

[varotone]

Water pump was not replaced during the rebuild because it looked like it was replaced recently. Impeller was not rusted. It was in good condition and the mechanic recommended to use the existing one. So, the noise is less likely to be from the water pump. By just spinning the water pump from outside I didn't feel any obvious wear. I doubt if I left the engine running long enough without the water pump belt to see if the noise appears. (I was worried about water not getting circulated in the engine. So only ran it for a short time) I'll get my mechanic to have a look once the current situation eases.

[varotone]

I found the source of the noise today?. 

It if from the carburetor intake manifold gasket. Something has caused a gasket failure. Carb mounting bolts are tight. But there is some invisible gap between the two. To confirm my diagnosis I used some gasket maker glue and the noise disappeared. Now that I know what is wrong, I'm going to take out the carb, face the mating surfaces (at home with sandpaper) and replace the gasket. I wonder why the new gasket failed so quickly?

[The Don]

Probably very late, but Shantha who is carburettor banda's son isn't too bad. But he is clearly not the artisan his father was and most times reccomends replacement over repair. He does have a good parts supply though.

Did you get your carb issue sorted?

[varotone]

The issue was the gasket between the carburetor and intake manifold. Carburetor per se is alright.

I didn't go to Banda's place because many said place doesn't live up to the hype. Some members recommended the Cotta road place. I went there. What he said was that the carb is alright, but not in perfect shape. Doing a rebuild right now would not be the best value for money. Plus fixing the choke would cost quite a bit. Replacement would be cheaper and reliable. So while I removed the carburetor to make a gasket, I decided to do a carburetor rebuild on my own.

 

The only time I used to touch the carb is to adjust idle☺️. Since reliable carb mechanics are difficult to find, I decided to learn the dark art of carburetor repairs. Carbs have been difficult to understand for me. I did quite a bit of reading on carburetors, went through the manual and went ahead with the dismantling. I'll update once the rebuild is done.

[tilvin]

10 hours ago, varotone said:

The issue was the gasket between the carburetor and intake manifold. Carburetor per se is alright.

I didn't go to Banda's place because many said place doesn't live up to the hype. Some members recommended the Cotta road place. I went there. What he said was that the carb is alright, but not in perfect shape. Doing a rebuild right now would not be the best value for money. Plus fixing the choke would cost quite a bit. Replacement would be cheaper and reliable. So while I removed the carburetor to make a gasket, I decided to do a carburetor rebuild on my own.

 

The only time I used to touch the carb is to adjust idle☺️. Since reliable carb mechanics are difficult to find, I decided to learn the dark art of carburetor repairs. Carbs have been difficult to understand for me. I did quite a bit of reading on carburetors, went through the manual and went ahead with the dismantling. I'll update once the rebuild is done.

Wish you all the best on your DIY task on your car....?. Meantime, does your car petrol or diesel?

[The Don]

11 hours ago, varotone said:

The issue was the gasket between the carburetor and intake manifold. Carburetor per se is alright.

I didn't go to Banda's place because many said place doesn't live up to the hype. Some members recommended the Cotta road place. I went there. What he said was that the carb is alright, but not in perfect shape. Doing a rebuild right now would not be the best value for money. Plus fixing the choke would cost quite a bit. Replacement would be cheaper and reliable. So while I removed the carburetor to make a gasket, I decided to do a carburetor rebuild on my own.

 

The only time I used to touch the carb is to adjust idle☺️. Since reliable carb mechanics are difficult to find, I decided to learn the dark art of carburetor repairs. Carbs have been difficult to understand for me. I did quite a bit of reading on carburetors, went through the manual and went ahead with the dismantling. I'll update once the rebuild is done.

DIY is always the best. It's really what these restore projects should be about. I did find an uncle in Piliyandala who seems to know his way round carbs. Might be a good contact if you ever need professional help. 

[Davy]

15 hours ago, tilvin said:

Wish you all the best on your DIY task on your car....?. Meantime, does your car petrol or diesel?

It has a carburettor. What do you think? ?

 

13 hours ago, The Don said:

DIY is always the best. It's really what these restore projects should be about. I did find an uncle in Piliyandala who seems to know his way round carbs. Might be a good contact if you ever need professional help. 

True that. My father and I may have taken the carburettor apart several times, and we would sometimes struggle for days without success. It would either idle poorly or have trouble starting up in the morning or have flooding issues. Finally when it was time to restore, my mechanic did an immaculate job restoring the carburettor. He even taught me how to do a simple tune and set the screws properly for idle and fuel. Good carb experts are hard to come by these days, so certainly helps to know how to take them apart and rebuild them. Easier said than done of course. 

 

On 4/29/2020 at 12:31 PM, varotone said:

he only time I used to touch the carb is to adjust idle☺️. Since reliable carb mechanics are difficult to find, I decided to learn the dark art of carburetor repairs. Carbs have been difficult to understand for me. I did quite a bit of reading on carburetors, went through the manual and went ahead with the dismantling. I'll update once the rebuild is done.

Glad the manual is helping.  ? Certainly handy to have around when you are taking a carburettor apart. 

[varotone]

Thanks for the words of encouragement! I finally did it! . Manual certainly helped. Thanks @Davy for the manual and @Rumesh88 for sending me some resources to learn all about carbs.

After a couple of weeks of reading, couple of gurling days of taking apart, cleaning and rebuilding the carb, I know how a carb works. I also have the bragging rights to say "I rebuilt my own carburetor"  I'm certainly not a master in the dark art of repairing cabs. But I know where every orifice leads to, how each vacuum behaves, and what each adjustment screw does. That's sufficient for my needs.

[varotone]

Carburetor rebuilding

Before dismantling

Work in progress

Clean venturi

New power piston

Float adjustment

New primary jets

New accelerator pump

After rebuild

Lessons learnt

• Read the manual fully before beginning. Don't read one step, do that step, read the next, do the next. Some important information is at the end.
• Most Aisan carbs are similar. Therefore, these lessons are valid for a wide range of carbs.
• Remove the carb from the manifold, take it to a place with good ventilation, turn it over to drain any petrol in the float chamber.
• Do the rebuild in a well-lit, well ventilated place. Lay an old towel on a large table in a place without clutter. Some tiny bit will certainly fall out. An indoor location without clutter helps in this situation. You don't want to crawl under beds with a light hoping to find a 3mm spring that flew away! an old towel or thick cloth prevents the tendency of stuff bumping and rolling on the table.
• Plenty of small containers, labels, pen and paper, small bags
• Phone. Video every step of disassembly. Narrate stuff as you go on. Like "this nut has one copper washer. This one is little larger than the second and has a spring washer. Take couple of photos from different angles in tricky places. Video the assembly as well. when you missed one bit during reassembly you can pinpoint at what point things went wrong instead of going crazy.
• In addition to the usual tools have a 9mm deep skinny socket, long needle nose pliers.
• Proceed dismantling stepwise. Video everything, label and bag stuff then and there, take notes/narrate. Preserve every bit that you find.
• After completely dismantling, start cleaning. first remove the gasket residue. Don't use metal bristles to unclog small pores. Use carb cleaner and nylon bristle or compressed air.
• Check all the mating surfaces for flatness. I wanted mine to be 0.05 mm or flatter. Carb is a delicate piece held together by small screws. It won't hold much torque like bolts. So, ensure all the surfaces are quite flat to begin with. Mine had 0.5mm unevenness on the float bowl mating surface but didn't give any issues. Intake manifold had 0.6mm and gave issues- made me do this rebuild.
• Wash out everything with liquid soap and copious amounts of warm water. Don't use power detergents or soap. The particles can clog up small passages and nozzles. I used the pressure washer carefully.
• Make sure every passage is opened up with pressured air or carb cleaner. Again, don't use metal bristles.
• Buy the rebuild kit. Some gasket making paper, fresh vacuum tubes. Check what parts you have got in the kit.
• Have the exploded view of the carb printed. Pay the disassembly videos on the computer; last one first. Get the video rolling on the phone and go back to putting back the carb.
• Replace everything you got new in the kit. Make sure throttle plates move freely, pistons move freely, screws and bolts are tight enough.
• Mine doesn't have a sight glass. The only method to make sure your float chamber is filled up to the spec is adjust the clearances as per specks. Needle to float is 0.9mm. Float to brim is 7.5mm. Triple check because if it is wrong, there's no other way to check the level without taking apart the whole thing and measure the clearances.
• Adjust the accelerator pump travel to speck.
• Adjust throttle opening angles of the both primary and secondary and choke to speck. To set secondary throttle opening angles, you have to open it by applying vacuum from outside (by sucking in air). I don’t have a throttle plate angle measurement gauge. I have devised a mathematical method of measuring (calculating) throttle angle with several measurements using a caliper. Here is the calculation. First measure dimensions a to e with the throttle fully closed. To set the throttle to some given angle, calculate x and set the depth x measured using the caliper. It should work as well or even better than the angle gauge.
• 
• When bending the tabs to set angles don’t bend them back and forth like crazy with a pair of pliers. Instead use a small G clamp. Bend by slowly closing the clamp and check. If it needs to be bent some more, close the clamps by another turn. Repeat till you hit the specs.
•  Check al the vacuum tubes are snug. Temporarily plug those that you are not using currently. Lubricate the springs, levers, shafts and the whole moving sliding mechanism. Make sure all open and close all the way before putting it in the car.
• Fix the carb, put back what you removed, fire her up, tune the idle, throttle, and AC idle up. Enjoy the happy purring! Because the throttle response could be changed, take a test drive.

I had a crappy secondary throttle before. I didn’t realize it till I took apart everything. Now that everything is working as intended, the throttle is more responsive. When this pandemic situation eases I'll take a test drive. Perhaps burn a few donuts!

[varotone]

Regarding the automatic choke that I was trying to fix from the beginning, It is impossible to fix. I was planning to drill out the broken nozzle line thing and tap a threaded hole to fix a hydraulic threaded nipple and connect the coolant horse to the nipple. Unfortunately, the choke housing the bi-metal stripe is rounded. So a thread drilled on to this curved piece will not have enough threads to securely hold the threaded nipple. Never strong enough to handle the pressure inside the cooling system. Welding would cause havoc on the thin metal. I'll try my luck finding the auto choke at the scrap yards.

Dysfunctional auto choke has never given me issues (Touch wood). If I find it difficult to start on a chilly morning in Nuwara Eliya, all I have to do is just pop the hood, fiddle under the air cleaner to manually close the choke, start the car and open the choke again once the engine is warmed up. It's a minor inconvenience.

Cause for the gasket failure that prompted all this was a little warpage on the intake manifold mating with the carburetor. Nearly 0.6mm at the maximum. Refaced that while still fixed to the engine. Nothing to worry since the gasket itself was intact. 

[tilvin]

42 minutes ago, varotone said:

Carburetor rebuilding

Great job...?. Congratulations...?. How about the nozzels in injector pump? Did you pressurize those? Better do injector pump calibration using specialized tools...?

[varotone]

Thanks @tilvin. Had a look at your profile and saw that you are not a newbie to AL. I was rebuilding the carburetor and here you are asking if it's diesel or petrol? Injector pump? Injector nozzles and the like.

It's unlikely that you are a troll (or are you?). Has lockdown got the best of you? Has the moonshine started working? Or smoked something different? If it's the last, care to share some with me? 

Edit - or is your account compromised?

Edited April 30, 2020 by varotone

[Davy]

54 minutes ago, varotone said:

Carburetor rebuilding

Before dismantling

Work in progress

Clean venturi

New power piston

Float adjustment

New primary jets

New accelerator pump

After rebuild

Lessons learnt

• Read the manual fully before beginning. Don't read one step, do that step, read the next, do the next. Some important information is at the end.
• Most Aisan carbs are similar. Therefore, these lessons are valid for a wide range of carbs.
• Remove the carb from the manifold, take it to a place with good ventilation, turn it over to drain any petrol in the float chamber.
• Do the rebuild in a well-lit, well ventilated place. Lay an old towel on a large table in a place without clutter. Some tiny bit will certainly fall out. An indoor location without clutter helps in this situation. You don't want to crawl under beds with a light hoping to find a 3mm spring that flew away! an old towel or thick cloth prevents the tendency of stuff bumping and rolling on the table.
• Plenty of small containers, labels, pen and paper, small bags
• Phone. Video every step of disassembly. Narrate stuff as you go on. Like "this nut has one copper washer. This one is little larger than the second and has a spring washer. Take couple of photos from different angles in tricky places. Video the assembly as well. when you missed one bit during reassembly you can pinpoint at what point things went wrong instead of going crazy.
• In addition to the usual tools have a 9mm deep skinny socket, long needle nose pliers.
• Proceed dismantling stepwise. Video everything, label and bag stuff then and there, take notes/narrate. Preserve every bit that you find.
• After completely dismantling, start cleaning. first remove the gasket residue. Don't use metal bristles to unclog small pores. Use carb cleaner and nylon bristle or compressed air.
• Check all the mating surfaces for flatness. I wanted mine to be 0.05 mm or flatter. Carb is a delicate piece held together by small screws. It won't hold much torque like bolts. So, ensure all the surfaces are quite flat to begin with. Mine had 0.5mm unevenness on the float bowl mating surface but didn't give any issues. Intake manifold had 0.6mm and gave issues- made me do this rebuild.
• Wash out everything with liquid soap and copious amounts of warm water. Don't use power detergents or soap. The particles can clog up small passages and nozzles. I used the pressure washer carefully.
• Make sure every passage is opened up with pressured air or carb cleaner. Again, don't use metal bristles.
• Buy the rebuild kit. Some gasket making paper, fresh vacuum tubes. Check what parts you have got in the kit.
• Have the exploded view of the carb printed. Pay the disassembly videos on the computer; last one first. Get the video rolling on the phone and go back to putting back the carb.
• Replace everything you got new in the kit. Make sure throttle plates move freely, pistons move freely, screws and bolts are tight enough.
• Mine doesn't have a sight glass. The only method to make sure your float chamber is filled up to the spec is adjust the clearances as per specks. Needle to float is 0.9mm. Float to brim is 7.5mm. Triple check because if it is wrong, there's no other way to check the level without taking apart the whole thing and measure the clearances.
• Adjust the accelerator pump travel to speck.
• Adjust throttle opening angles of the both primary and secondary and choke to speck. To set secondary throttle opening angles, you have to open it by applying vacuum from outside (by sucking in air). I don’t have a throttle plate angle measurement gauge. I have devised a mathematical method of measuring (calculating) throttle angle with several measurements using a caliper. Here is the calculation. First measure dimensions a to e with the throttle fully closed. To set the throttle to some given angle, calculate x and set the depth x measured using the caliper. It should work as well or even better than the angle gauge.
•  
• When bending the tabs to set angles don’t bend them back and forth like crazy with a pair of pliers. Instead use a small G clamp. Bend by slowly closing the clamp and check. If it needs to be bent some more, close the clamps by another turn. Repeat till you hit the specs.
•  Check al the vacuum tubes are snug. Temporarily plug those that you are not using currently. Lubricate the springs, levers, shafts and the whole moving sliding mechanism. Make sure all open and close all the way before putting it in the car.
• Fix the carb, put back what you removed, fire her up, tune the idle, throttle, and AC idle up. Enjoy the happy purring! Because the throttle response could be changed, take a test drive.

I had a crappy secondary throttle before. I didn’t realize it till I took apart everything. Now that everything is working as intended, the throttle is more responsive. When this pandemic situation eases I'll take a test drive. Perhaps burn a few donuts!

Job well done! Hats off! Brings back so many memories of my father and I taking apart this carburettor and putting it back together. 

As for the Auto choke, my car never had one. Most of the mechanics who looked into it said that it must have been removed by a previous owner. Without the Auto Choke, cold starts were difficult, but then after taking apart the carburettor and after consulting several experts, we learnt to live without it. The trick was to pump the throttle twice, pull the manual choke under the dash, rest the foot on the throttle and crank the engine. As soon as it starts, give it two light blips and she continues to idle okay. My father and I were the only ones who could get the car to start first go on cold mornings, ?

[varotone]

53 minutes ago, Davy said:

The trick was to pump the throttle twice, pull the manual choke under the dash, rest the foot on the throttle and crank the engine. As soon as it starts, give it two light blips and she continues to idle okay.

You came very close to the proper cold starting procedure. Yours might have required different sequence. Proper cold start process with auto choke is

1. Floor the gas pedal once swiftly. This engages the accelerator pump and releases a puff of petrol above the throttle plates. And turns the cam lobe that closes the auto choke if it's sufficiently cold.

2. Immediately turn the key and start. The rich mixture will air out with time.

3. Don't move the gas pedal till you reach operating temperature. Once the engine starts going, it will generate enough vacuum to pull a vacuum diaphragm on the cab pulling open the choke plate and keeping it locked open. Trying to pump/flicker the gas pedal will prevent the required vacuum from building up to close the choke plate. Or it will puff out too rich mixture ultimately wetting the spark plugs. At that point you have to wait for a long time for the plugs to dry and mixture to vent out before attempting again.

There's some YouTube video on this which I'm finding difficult to locate.

Edited April 30, 2020 by varotone

[varotone]

"Starting a car can be easy or hard. It just depends on how you go about with it!" Be like Dora Doright.

Courtesy of Classic General Motors Rochester Carburetor Division.

You're welcome.

Edited April 30, 2020 by varotone
Correct link

[Hyaenidae]

Sorry if what I'm about to ask is heresy/unholy, is it possible to replace the oiginal engine of an A72V with a 4G1X EFI engine with minimal fabrication of engine mounts

[Davy]

20 minutes ago, Hyaenidae said:

Sorry if what I'm about to ask is heresy/unholy, is it possible to replace the oiginal engine of an A72V with a 4G1X EFI engine with minimal fabrication of engine mounts

The A72 is rear wheel drive with the engine oriented inline (front - back) with two mounts on either side and one more just above the transmission. Most if not all 4G1X engines were on front wheel drive cars, and the engine oriented transversely (left - right). So it would not be a simple job IMO. In addition to finding engine mounts or fabricating them, the transmission bell housing will have to be changed to suit. 

Having said that, I have seen A72/A73 Lancers with 4G63T swaps as well as Mazda rotary engines in them, so you're only limited by your imagination and of course budget.

Given the choice, I'd opt for the original carburettor 4G33 any day. They are very reliable. ?

[Hyaenidae]

6 hours ago, Davy said:

The A72 is rear wheel drive with the engine oriented inline (front - back) with two mounts on either side and one more just above the transmission. Most if not all 4G1X engines were on front wheel drive cars, and the engine oriented transversely (left - right). So it would not be a simple job IMO. In addition to finding engine mounts or fabricating them, the transmission bell housing will have to be changed to suit. 

Having said that, I have seen A72/A73 Lancers with 4G63T swaps as well as Mazda rotary engines in them, so you're only limited by your imagination and of course budget.

Given the choice, I'd opt for the original carburettor 4G33 any day. They are very reliable. ?

Thanks @Davy

[Twin Turbo]

Great detailed work , now the car should sing when started,..

I expect to see the exhaust water after this carb is fitted.?

be sure to upload a vid.

 

 

TT.

[Splat]

On 4/30/2020 at 2:20 PM, Davy said:

Job well done! Hats off! Brings back so many memories of my father and I taking apart this carburettor and putting it back together. 

As for the Auto choke, my car never had one. Most of the mechanics who looked into it said that it must have been removed by a previous owner. Without the Auto Choke, cold starts were difficult, but then after taking apart the carburettor and after consulting several experts, we learnt to live without it. The trick was to pump the throttle twice, pull the manual choke under the dash, rest the foot on the throttle and crank the engine. As soon as it starts, give it two light blips and she continues to idle okay. My father and I were the only ones who could get the car to start first go on cold mornings, ?

Wow that's an amazing trick. I am sure it would definitely come in handy. 

[Splat]

On 4/30/2020 at 1:44 PM, varotone said:

Regarding the automatic choke that I was trying to fix from the beginning, It is impossible to fix. I was planning to drill out the broken nozzle line thing and tap a threaded hole to fix a hydraulic threaded nipple and connect the coolant horse to the nipple. Unfortunately, the choke housing the bi-metal stripe is rounded. So a thread drilled on to this curved piece will not have enough threads to securely hold the threaded nipple. Never strong enough to handle the pressure inside the cooling system. Welding would cause havoc on the thin metal. I'll try my luck finding the auto choke at the scrap yards.

Dysfunctional auto choke has never given me issues (Touch wood). If I find it difficult to start on a chilly morning in Nuwara Eliya, all I have to do is just pop the hood, fiddle under the air cleaner to manually close the choke, start the car and open the choke again once the engine is warmed up. It's a minor inconvenience.

Cause for the gasket failure that prompted all this was a little warpage on the intake manifold mating with the carburetor. Nearly 0.6mm at the maximum. Refaced that while still fixed to the engine. Nothing to worry since the gasket itself was intact. 

Bravo... I admire your courage to take matters to your hands and I am glad your project went out well. you were very wise not to go to "Banda" as he is a swindler. Thank you very much for sharing your lessons learnt and experience as I too am planning to get a carburetor cleaned and restored and I’m sure this thread would be of immense help. If I may ask from where did you buy the carburetor rebuild kit? Any experience and advice on the brand and quality of the kit and parts purchased? Any recommendations on shops that sells parts for carburetors? Thank you once again for your informative thread. Wish you well.

[varotone]

1. I bought it from W!ckr@m@ motors, Panchikawatta.

2. The brand that I bought is "Keyster". There were a few other brands also. They didn't have the other brands fitting my carb. This was my very first attempt at rebuilding a carb. So, I don't have any baseline to say how good or bad the kit is. Thankfully everything fit well. gaskets and all. (Also I bought this kit amidst the COVID lockdown. Didn't even bother to shop around or look at other brands. I just grabbed the first kit that fits my carb and hoped for the best)

3. Carb kits are readily available. I had to go to a few places to find one that fits mine. In addition to the carb kit I bought a gasket paper, again readily available. My kit came with everything that I needed. So, I didn't have to shop for other bits like jets, needles and stuff. I suspect that such parts are also available to be purchased individually.

Glad that I could help. Thanks for the wishes.  Best of luck with your project!

[Splat]

15 hours ago, varotone said:

1. I bought it from W!ckr@m@ motors, Panchikawatta.

2. The brand that I bought is "Keyster". There were a few other brands also. They didn't have the other brands fitting my carb. This was my very first attempt at rebuilding a carb. So, I don't have any baseline to say how good or bad the kit is. Thankfully everything fit well. gaskets and all. (Also I bought this kit amidst the COVID lockdown. Didn't even bother to shop around or look at other brands. I just grabbed the first kit that fits my carb and hoped for the best)

3. Carb kits are readily available. I had to go to a few places to find one that fits mine. In addition to the carb kit I bought a gasket paper, again readily available. My kit came with everything that I needed. So, I didn't have to shop for other bits like jets, needles and stuff. I suspect that such parts are also available to be purchased individually.

Glad that I could help. Thanks for the wishes.  Best of luck with your project!

Thank you ever so much for your contribution. W!ck's are a good supplier they have a good customer service. Up to now they have not cheated me and the parts such as heat sensors are of very good quality (As it always a risk to buy something that cant be returned). The Covid19 pandemic has indeed created a negative impact to the economy.  How ever many vendors at Panchikawatta are exploiting the customer with sky high unfair pricing. Yesterday I bought an odometer sensor and I was charged 3500/= when its true value would be 1200/= to 1600/=, a rubber bush that's locally manufactured was sold to me at 900/= when in January it was 350/=. I hope things get back  to normal after a cure is found for the C19 virus.

I found a technician at Kaduwela they do repairs and tuning for carburetors I hope to visit them and see how they do as its difficult to find good technicians for carburetors that has become a monopoly service. Thank you once again for all your help. Hope the wet weather clears, be safe and take care. 

[varotone]

Spare parts prices are on a whole new level! Do shop around. I was quoted Rs. 800 for a rotor. A few weeks later I bought it from the same shop for Rs. 350.

How was the technician at Kaduwela? @The Don shared contact details of a carb mech. in Piliyandala. Thankfully I didn't need to go to him.