A question only experts can answer

Ted · April 14, 2020

Dear All,

I challenge you if there is somebody who can answer to my question. Autolanka make a very good servide but I am highly doubtful whether I have got a clear answer to my question which I have been submitting weeks ago. My question is what is the damage if a small ( 3mm width, 5mm length and 4mm depth) was one of my pistons of my car and I had run with it around 30 kms? Visible damages were 5 small scars on piston with around 2mm depths. Ever after removal there is a little noise coming from the engine. No visible and tangible worn signs of the cylinder.

1) Has my piston damaged?

2) Has my crankshaft damaged?

3) or any other ?

Only experts can answer this. I hope such an expert is in Sri Lanka.

tiv · April 14, 2020

6 hours ago, Ted said:

Dear All,

I challenge you if there is somebody who can answer to my question. Autolanka make a very good servide but I am highly doubtful whether I have got a clear answer to my question which I have been submitting weeks ago. My question is what is the damage if a small ( 3mm width, 5mm length and 4mm depth) was one of my pistons of my car and I had run with it around 30 kms? Visible damages were 5 small scars on piston with around 2mm depths. Ever after removal there is a little noise coming from the engine. No visible and tangible worn signs of the cylinder.

1) Has my piston damaged?

2) Has my crankshaft damaged?

3) or any other ?

Only experts can answer this. I hope such an expert is in Sri Lanka.

I'm no expert, I replied to your last thread,

But again, when I take a diesel vehicle for the annual tune up and egr clean, the mechanics take utmost precautions not to dislodge clumps of soot / carbon deposits into the inlet / exhaust ports way above the valves, saying there is a tendency to damage the innards.

These clumps of soot crumple in your hand but yet they do this. So a bit of metal may / may not have harmed your engine.

But if I were you, I wouldn't be contemplating about the experts here rather go open the engine up and make sure nothing has been damaged.

Then again there may / may not be any damage.

If you are running long distances you may, may not have problems.

I run by this policy, if a car is not reliable, it defeats its purpose as an appliance,

It fails its purpose as entertainment for us motorheads. Of course fixing and upgrading is fun, but not forever, then it's an inconvenience.

For a car to be reliable, it must breakdown less and psychologically must allow you to have the confidence to use it. If that doesnt happen it's just a lump of metal, either you make a proper car out of it, or get rid of it.

So its upto u you, take a risk and run the thing with the noise, or start the autopsy.

Everytime you hear the sound / whine, you ll be thinking about this thread.

Hope you find the expert you are looking for

But I doubt he ll give you the answer.

Edited April 14, 2020 by tiv

The Don · April 14, 2020

As people have already pointed out this is a discussion forum not a service. To obtain a service you would normally have to pay. We are enthusiasts and some have expertise in certain areas. Others are here to learn and discuss. All advice / suggestions are given without any guarantees expressed or implied so take it as your own risk.

On your particular issue the short answer any solid foreign object in the combustion chamber can cause damage to the internals. Combustion is a violent process, a controlled explosion. Any lose item in there will likely to get thrown about with great force while the engine runs.

How much damage it may have caused is not something one can predict from behind a computer. As the movement of that object will be random, it is impossible to predict what it may have hit how many times. Maybe you have gotten lucky and it hasn't caused major damage.

The only question that I can clearly answer is if the foreign object hasn't deteriorated, and you can be sure of it, then the damage is probably contained in the combustion chamber and items connected to it, so piston, chamber walls, valves etc.

To speculate on what could happen if the item has broken apart, we need to know a bit more about the engine.

The Don · April 14, 2020

As you are not interested in boring stories I will keep it short.

Please specify chemical composition of foreign object, and pictures if you have any. And most importantly please specify your engine and any modifications done.

On the crankshaft it is unlikely damage was caused to it by the object hitting the piston because the force of it will be absorbed by the piston, connecting rod etc before being passed onto the crankshaft. Checking the crankshaft for damage in most engines isn't hard. You can physically inspect it by removing the oil pan from below.

Good luck

PS. People give advice here voluntarily in their own free time. Nobody is bound to do so. Nobody also gets paid to do so.

So it might put you in good stead to appreciate that, be patient and show some respect.

iRage · April 14, 2020

2 hours ago, Ted said:

I need an answer like this,

1) The probability of damaging your piston is xx% w.r.t. transferring the force to crankshaft. Since crankshaft is made of forged iron it is highly unlikely that your crankshaft is bent due to this foreign part.

2) If you still think you crankshaft is damaged you can check it and this is how it can be checked....bla bla bla

3) There are other things which you should check. One is.... two is....

Like this. Please do not waste your time by writing boring stories here if you cannot answer like above. BECAUSE I HAVE POSTED THIS IN "ASK FROM EXPERT" and experts are not like that....

I did not answer your question because you yourself had answered yourself.

What you do not realise is none of us can give you the answers you are looking for from behind a computer (or anything that you cannot find for yourself from a simple google search).The exact answer can only be given by a proper mechanic after inspecting the engine and the damage that has been caused (this includes even simply listening to the engine and actually feeling how it operates as well). Some how this seems to be something you are avoiding.

WIthout a proper inspection..all we can do is speculate just like you yourself have done. (Pistons might be damaged, walls might be damaged, con rods might be twisted, etc...). For your situation...you do not need "Might" answers...you need definitive diagnosis of what has happened to your engine. For something like this...no one can give a % as well...it is extremely subjective (on what was inside the chamber, how long it was there for, what the actual object was, whether you are still running on original stock internals, etc...).

So..take it to a proper garage...and get an assessment done. Based on the findings..we can start a discussion.

Off topic: I can understand that having something happen to your car is frustrating. But if anything seemingly serious happens to your car, the first thing you should do is go get it checked out by a professional. Asking about the issue on forums, searching on the internet are interim solutions until you can take it to a garage to get it checked out.

varotone · April 14, 2020

10 hours ago, Ted said:

1) Has my piston damaged?

2) Has my crankshaft damaged?

3) or any other ?

1. Yes. Got it straight from the horse's mouth. A scratch is a damage in my book. Should it be replaced? If there are no other damages, no need to replace. Give a good visual inspection from above, below and around.

2. Low probability of damage from the missed timing alone. Since you are quite worried, why not give it a thorough overall? Check for cracks, warps, end float, then remove and check for run-out. May be a magnaflux also.

3. Very likely. Con rods, gudgeon pins, cam lobes

Did you get a chance to start the new engine before transplanting? In other words, are you certain that this noise occured after the wrong timing? It may have been there. "Small noises" can be due to worn bearings and timing belt tensioner pulley. May be even vacuum leaks.

PS.

I know you spent money on two engines and frustrated because you still couldn't fix the car. Don't loose you cool. Every member commented tried to help you or point you to the right direction. Don't loose faith in mechanics or even the makabass because he messed up the engine from a simple mistake. It happens to the best of us.

The last person we need here is the astrologer who can read your post and tell what components need replacement and also give you the auspicious time to repair the car.

vag2 · April 14, 2020

oh god, first the DFSK donkey, now this. .....Too much funny Virus to deal with these days...

kadsa98 · April 14, 2020

I'm not sure if this is a troll post or not ?

kadsa98 · April 15, 2020

16 hours ago, The Don said:

As you are not interested in boring stories I will keep it short.

Please specify chemical composition of foreign object, and pictures if you have any. And most importantly please specify your engine and any modifications done.

On the crankshaft it is unlikely damage was caused to it by the object hitting the piston because the force of it will be absorbed by the piston, connecting rod etc before being passed onto the crankshaft. Checking the crankshaft for damage in most engines isn't hard. You can physically inspect it by removing the oil pan from below.

Good luck

PS. People give advice here voluntarily in their own free time. Nobody is bound to do so. Nobody also gets paid to do so.

So it might put you in good stead to appreciate that, be patient and show some respect.

@Ted Kindly read this again. No one owes you anything, we're all helping each other here.

matroska · April 15, 2020

This thread is now going OT and needs to be locked.

Few things i need to mention -

Dear OP,

1/ This is a FORUM where people discuss about cars and mechanical problems - not everyone is a mechanic and most of the time people help each other out based on their experience etc. For instance about a year or so back people had issues with the GP1 Oil burn and everyone helped each other out with their experiences short term measures, permanent solutions what to do and not etc. Just an example on how this FORUM was helpful in sorting out mechanical issues. Please note this is a FORUM where people try to help each other out. Not a FREE OF CHARGE VIRTUAL GARAGE.

2/Attitude Matters - the tone of the first post in the thread starts with 'I challenge you...' you can't get someone to help you with that attitude.

3/ Your Issue is specific - and it is really difficult to provide a proper response without actually seeing it. That is the unfortunate truth you don't seem to understand, and what people like Tiv have replied as BEST AS THEY CAN from behind a laptop screen. If people can diagnose issues (cars, machinery - heck even human medical conditions) with just a few lines of description read on a laptop screen that would probably reduce a lot of traffic and benefit the world. Sadly we are not there yet. If there exists an expert who can tell you exactly what is wrong with your engine remotely then that dude better start charging money.

This thread has now sunk low to the depths of School Boy level name calling. And your post above says something about leaving university in 2009? You're older than many of us, so with all due respect good sir, please show some maturity. You're a responsible citizen in your Mid 30's so please act like one even in a forum.

All things considered I have a suspicion that you're probably trolling - you're probably bored at home and want to wind up people here?

Anyway this thread is pointless. I hope you resolve your issues with your car and yourself.

Cheers.

@Mods - Please lock this thread.

The Don · April 15, 2020

4 hours ago, Ted said:

1) It is a broken valve part which was thrown from previous engine to fuel manifold.

2) 5A-FE Engine. This is a new engine with just 40k mileage from Japan.

3) OKAY. Actually I that is I am going to do. Inspect from the beginning.

3) I am not thinking like that way. What I am saying is some ppl are telling other stories without giving an answer because they don't know the answer. If so they should have been kept silent. That is my point. There are many answers to my question. What I am expecting is answers with decisions according to the expert's point of view but with scientific facts. Rather than doing this some ppl are boasting here. This is "Ask from an Expert" not "General Automotive". Anyway thanks for your comments.

The reason why I asked about the material is to consider it's ability to cause damage to engine internals. Sadly a bit of valve can, so a thorough inspection is necessary on the piston chamber and the piston itself. The economical way is to use a small endoscopic camera, which I'm sure some workshops have but most will not. While you are doing that do a compression and cylinder head leakage test. (they are not the same). This will tell you if there is damage / premature wear caused to the cylinder walls that you can't really see from a camera/ visual inspection, particularly when it comes to values. If compression is ok and no leakages that is a positive sign.

The reason I asked about the engine is to consider the possibility of damage caused by small shavings/ particles thrown off out of the exhaust port into the manifold such as a turbo. Thankfully in your case these particles would just flow down the exhaust.

And it goes without saying the engine oil needs to be flushed so all particle material is removed. This in the long term can cause premature wear so its imperative this is done.

I understand you had certain expectations. But there is an extent to which people can provide a learned opinion based on a few sentences written by somebody. As we do not practice astrology or have a crystal ball, all we can do is guess. And I think across the responses you've had, I think you have gotten a pretty decent set of responses, even if you did not think yourself.

On the matter of respect, please remember you came to us asking for advice. So while the responses might not be to your satisfaction, please consider the fact they are given with good intentions. It is up to you to use your intelligence and decide which advice to take and which not to take. This is the case with any forum international or otherwise.

Whether you continue to stay in the forum or not is completely up to you. But if you do please be considerate and respectful of other members and they will do the same to you. Attitude doesn't get you anywhere.

The Don · April 15, 2020

I don't want to start the new year with locking threads or giving people warnings. I also don't want to waste time cleaning up threads.

We are all adults here. So kindly behave like ones

Davy · April 15, 2020

5 hours ago, matroska said:

This thread is now going OT and needs to be locked.

Few things i need to mention -

Dear OP,

1/ This is a FORUM where people discuss about cars and mechanical problems - not everyone is a mechanic and most of the time people help each other out based on their experience etc. For instance about a year or so back people had issues with the GP1 Oil burn and everyone helped each other out with their experiences short term measures, permanent solutions what to do and not etc. Just an example on how this FORUM was helpful in sorting out mechanical issues. Please note this is a FORUM where people try to help each other out. Not a FREE OF CHARGE VIRTUAL GARAGE.

2/Attitude Matters - the tone of the first post in the thread starts with 'I challenge you...' you can't get someone to help you with that attitude.

3/ Your Issue is specific - and it is really difficult to provide a proper response without actually seeing it. That is the unfortunate truth you don't seem to understand, and what people like Tiv have replied as BEST AS THEY CAN from behind a laptop screen. If people can diagnose issues (cars, machinery - heck even human medical conditions) with just a few lines of description read on a laptop screen that would probably reduce a lot of traffic and benefit the world. Sadly we are not there yet. If there exists an expert who can tell you exactly what is wrong with your engine remotely then that dude better start charging money.

This thread has now sunk low to the depths of School Boy level name calling. And your post above says something about leaving university in 2009? You're older than many of us, so with all due respect good sir, please show some maturity. You're a responsible citizen in your Mid 30's so please act like one even in a forum.

All things considered I have a suspicion that you're probably trolling - you're probably bored at home and want to wind up people here?

Anyway this thread is pointless. I hope you resolve your issues with your car and yourself.

Cheers.

@Mods - Please lock this thread.

Thank you @matroska. Couldn't have said it any better.

Thread locked.

AVANTE · April 14, 2020

45 minutes ago, Ted said:

Only experts can answer this. I hope such an expert is in Sri Lanka.

There are, they are called mechanics.

Each member here has a specific set of knowledge/talent, some have are more knowledgeable than the other but we are all here to help/learn from one another. So please don't treat this as some sort of magical one stop shop for all your automotive needs. This is a discussion forum after all, not a panel of judges and experts. As this is a unique type of problem pertaining to the internals of the engine, no one can say for sure without seeing it or having experience this same exact problem before.

I'm Truly sorry to hear about your problems as you are in your 3rd engine now but some people would rather stay silent rather than speculate or give false knowledge/false hope.

Let's see if there is someone here who has an idea of what could be wrong.

Also, do describe the noise. When does it occur, at what point, how loud, or if possible post a quick video.

Edited April 14, 2020 by AVANTE

AVANTE · April 14, 2020

3 hours ago, Ted said:

By the way, late but wish you and everyone else a happy & prosperous new year!

AVANTE · April 14, 2020

1 hour ago, Ted said:

I need an answer like this,

1) The probability of damaging your piston is xx% w.r.t. transferring the force to crankshaft. Since crankshaft is made of forged iron it is highly unlikely that your crankshaft is bent due to this foreign part.

2) If you still think you crankshaft is damaged you can check it and this is how it can be checked....bla bla bla

3) There are other things which you should check. One is.... two is....

Like this. Please do not waste your time by writing boring stories here if you cannot answer like above. BECAUSE I HAVE POSTED THIS IN "ASK FROM EXPERT" and experts are not like that....

I believe @The Don & @tiv have given you very good answers. If you want more than this, you would have to take it to a professional mechanic, remove the head/oil pan and check yourself or search around Facebook, quora, reddit, international car forums, toyota forums, engine forums, etc.. In hopes of finding that one person who has the same exact problem and engine sound as yours.

Like mentioned earlier, we can't give you percentages or anything like that by sitting behind a computer screen. The least you could do is post a video of the sound which you didn't do yet.

Ted · April 15, 2020

Just now, kadsa98 said:

@Ted Kindly read this again. No one owes you anything, we're all helping each other here.

1) It is a broken valve part which was thrown from previous engine to fuel manifold.

2) 5A-FE Engine. This is a new engine with just 40k mileage from Japan.

3) OKAY. Actually I that is I am going to do. Inspect from the beginning.

3) I am not thinking like that way. What I am saying is some ppl are telling other stories without giving an answer because they don't know the answer. If so they should have been kept silent. That is my point. There are many answers to my question. What I am expecting is answers with decisions according to the expert's point of view but with scientific facts. Rather than doing this some ppl are boasting here. This is "Ask from an Expert" not "General Automotive". Anyway thanks for your comments.

AVANTE · April 15, 2020

1 hour ago, Ted said:

##edited## Is this because I criticized some of so called experts here?

He's done with it. No one is an officially certified expert here, just members with a better than average knowledge set. You got the answer to your problem. Be respectful and grateful for that atleast. Let's just stop. No need to send death threats and try to make anyone's wife a widow here.

Edited April 15, 2020 by The Don

Ted · April 15, 2020

Just now, AVANTE said:

No one is an officially certified expert here, just members with a better than average knowledge set. You got the answer to your problem. Be respectful and grateful for that atleast. Let's just stop. No need to send death threats and try to make anyone's wife a widow here.

I don't wanna be respectful for a pool of fools. This forum sucks...For an engineer like me ( I am an electronic) your answers are not in satisfactory level... I quit..

Ted · April 15, 2020

6 minutes ago, matroska said:

This thread is now going OT and needs to be locked.

Few things i need to mention -

Dear OP,

1/ This is a FORUM where people discuss about cars and mechanical problems - not everyone is a mechanic and most of the time people help each other out based on their experience etc. For instance about a year or so back people had issues with the GP1 Oil burn and everyone helped each other out with their experiences short term measures, permanent solutions what to do and not etc. Just an example on how this FORUM was helpful in sorting out mechanical issues. Please note this is a FORUM where people try to help each other out. Not a FREE OF CHARGE VIRTUAL GARAGE.

2/Attitude Matters - the tone of the first post in the thread starts with 'I challenge you...' you can't get someone to help you with that attitude.

3/ Your Issue is specific - and it is really difficult to provide a proper response without actually seeing it. That is the unfortunate truth you don't seem to understand, and what people like Tiv have replied as BEST AS THEY CAN from behind a laptop screen. If people can diagnose issues (cars, machinery - heck even human medical conditions) with just a few lines of description read on a laptop screen that would probably reduce a lot of traffic and benefit the world. Sadly we are not there yet. If there exists an expert who can tell you exactly what is wrong with your engine remotely then that dude better start charging money.

This thread has now sunk low to the depths of School Boy level name calling. And your post above says something about leaving university in 2009? You're older than many of us, so with all due respect good sir, please show some maturity. You're a responsible citizen in your Mid 30's so please act like one even in a forum.

All things considered I have a suspicion that you're probably trolling - you're probably bored at home and want to wind up people here?

Anyway this thread is pointless. I hope you resolve your issues with your car and yourself.

Cheers.

@Mods - Please lock this thread.

Dear Friend,

Yes.. I agree with you. What my point here is this forum is "Ask from an Expert". I have seen other international forums and I expected answers from expert view with proper justifications. Not like go to a good garage and check everything like wise. So I propose admins to allow only a filtered pool to comment "Ask From an Expert". For other common forums it is okay if everyone gets the chance. Indeed I should shoe more maturity. But I have a very bad habit that when I am angry I can't control myself. I know how to be professional because I am working in a such a position now serving the country. Anyway I am very sorry for any inconvenience if occurred... To be honest many of the answers of this forum are not what I expect ( may be I think like an engineer).

Ted · April 14, 2020

1 hour ago, AVANTE said:

There are, they are called mechanics.

Each member here has a specific set of knowledge/talent, some have are more knowledgeable than the other but we are all here to help/learn from one another. So please don't treat this as some sort of magical one stop shop for all your automotive needs. This is a discussion forum after all, not a panel of judges and experts. As this is a unique type of problem pertaining to the internals of the engine, no one can say for sure without seeing it or having experience this same exact problem before.

I'm Truly sorry to hear about your problems as you are in your 3rd engine now but some people would rather stay silent rather than speculate or give false knowledge/false hope.

Let's see if there is someone here who has an idea of what could be wrong.

Also, do describe the noise. When does it occur, at what point, how loud, or if possible post a quick video.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Ted

Ted · April 14, 2020

2 hours ago, varotone said:

1. Yes. Got it straight from the horse's mouth. A scratch is a damage in my book. Should it be replaced? If there are no other damages, no need to replace. Give a good visual inspection from above, below and around.

2. Low probability of damage from the missed timing alone. Since you are quite worried, why not give it a thorough overall? Check for cracks, warps, end float, then remove and check for run-out. May be a magnaflux also.

3. Very likely. Con rods, gudgeon pins, cam lobes

Did you get a chance to start the new engine before transplanting? In other words, are you certain that this noise occured after the wrong timing? It may have been there. "Small noises" can be due to worn bearings and timing belt tensioner pulley. May be even vacuum leaks.

PS.

I know you spent money on two engines and frustrated because you still couldn't fix the car. Don't loose you cool. Every member commented tried to help you or point you to the right direction. Don't loose faith in mechanics or even the makabass because he messed up the engine from a simple mistake. It happens to the best of us.

The last person we need here is the astrologer who can read your post and tell what components need replacement and also give you the auspicious time to repair the car.

Thanks for the satisfactory response...

Ted · April 15, 2020

6 hours ago, vag2 said:

oh god, first the DFSK donkey, now this. .....Too much funny Virus to deal with these days...

If you are an expert answer like an expert.. If you don't know then don't show your foolishness and keep quiet....

Ted · April 14, 2020

5 minutes ago, Ted said:

My Dear Friends,

I did notice recently in this forum is that ppl are giving comments not to the point. Earlier this trend was not in the forum. If you cannot give a comment to the point and write stories here it is a waste of time. Please I still did not find satisfactory answer..

I need an answer like this,

1) The probability of damaging your piston is xx% w.r.t. transferring the force to crankshaft. Since crankshaft is made of forged iron it is highly unlikely that your crankshaft is bent due to this foreign part.

2) If you still think you crankshaft is damaged you can check it and this is how it can be checked....bla bla bla

3) There are other things which you should check. One is.... two is....

Like this. Please do not waste your time by writing boring stories here if you cannot answer like above. BECAUSE I HAVE POSTED THIS IN "ASK FROM EXPERT" and experts are not like that....

Edited April 14, 2020 by Ted