Cornering body roll, rear passenger comfort & space

[everyf4]

This is a rant + seeking advice so bare with me also I have read most of the threads on comparing these cars but still I have specific doubts 

My use case -
1 Weekend drive  kandy to nuwara eliya (Every week)
2 Driving within gampola/nawala pitiya suburbia  !  

I really like what I have now its an AWD DA64 Every wagon, its small, compact, Lot of space K van with 64hp thats more than enough for me. Also I really like the AWD its entry level but helped me lot of times (every RWD vans have this issue of rear wheel spin)

The bummer is body roll its unbearable ! People are telling me to go for big tires wider (boku) alloy wheels, nope I want things to be stock (will change alloy wheels of correct size but not wider ones ) 
Now mine does 8kmpl city with 4 passengers and long drive 9-10kmpl thats okayish for me

My budget is around 3.5 - 4.5 Million but I am looking for practicality (A to B, dicky space, less body roll, basic options,  compact vehicle)
 

My choices 

1. I love the new swift but it lacks ground clearance 120mm is not enough ?
2. New vitz hmmm all of you guys were complaining about it comparing it for a CR42 so meh.. (145 mm is enough but what about rear passenger seats and dicky space )
3. New Passo same engine but if I get a boon I can save a lot, BANG for BUCK ! (concern is body roll ?)
4. Tank/Roomy spacious vehicle (again concern is body roll ?)

Also vitz 2010-2012 1.3 or RS versions its an old car but I like the RS version I have no issue with having more hp, its just compact ones are most of the time lacks hp 

UPDATE - I dont like turbos Im going NA

Guys please advice 

 

read most of these threads 
http://autolanka.com/forums/topic/21383-what-is-an-suspension-upgrade-for-a-vitz-and-howwhere-to-get-it-done/
http://autolanka.com/forums/topic/21477-vitz-or-wagon-r-turbo/
http://autolanka.com/forums/topic/21509-buying-a-new-vitz/
http://autolanka.com/forums/topic/21088-vitz-safety-editions/

Edited May 21, 2020 by everyf4

[iRage]

Also....the standard Vitz still has some decent body roll. Perhaps not as much as the Every wagon, but it is definitely there..lets not even get in to the under-steer. To be honest, the Aqua handles a lot better than the standard Vitz. Yes..the RS is better in many ways...but you need to get the actual 1.5L RS (which only a few are around). The 1.3L RS is just a normal 1.3L with a dress up kit. (albeit there was a weird period where the 1.3L also came with a proper RS). The standard Swift also has some body roll but not as much as a Vitz. If you get a Swift Sports even better. 

I too would say look in to a Mazda 2/Demio.

How would you feel about something like a Daihatsu Terios ? AWD, pretty much the same size as a hatchback...has body roll but the slightly wider track and the stiffer suspension reduces it a little bit. Gives you the ground clearance as well. You can find some decent agent imported and maintained ones around (albeit most are 2WD so finding an AWD would be take sometime).  Granted it will be a bit older than a Mazda 2

[Supra_Natural]

1 hour ago, everyf4 said:

This is a rant + seeking advice so bare with me also I have read most of the threads on comparing these cars but still I have specific doubts 

My use case -
1 Weekend drive  kandy to nuwara eliya (Every week)
2 Driving within gampola/nawala pitiya suburbia  !  

I really like what I have now its an AWD DA64 Every wagon, its small, compact, Lot of space K van with 64hp thats more than enough for me. Also I really like the AWD its entry level but helped me lot of times (every RWD vans have this issue of rear wheel spin)

The bummer is body roll its unbearable ! People are telling me to go for big tires wider (boku) alloy wheels, nope I want things to be stock (will change alloy wheels of correct size but not wider ones ) 
Now mine does 8kmpl city with 4 passengers and long drive 9-10kmpl thats okayish for me

My budget is around 3.5 - 4.5 Million but I am looking for practicality (A to B, dicky space, less body roll, basic options,  compact vehicle)
 

My choices 

1. I love the new swift but it lacks ground clearance 120mm is not enough ?
2. New vitz hmmm all of you guys were complaining about it comparing it for a CR42 so meh.. (145 mm is enough but what about rear passenger seats and dicky space )
3. New Passo same engine but if I get a boon I can save a lot, BANG for BUCK ! (concern is body roll ?)
4. Tank/Roomy spacious vehicle (again concern is body roll ?)

Also vitz 2010-2012 1.3 or RS versions its an old car but I like the RS version I have no issue with having more hp, its just compact ones are most of the time lacks hp 

UPDATE - I dont like turbos Im going NA

Guys please advice 

 

read most of these threads 
http://autolanka.com/forums/topic/21383-what-is-an-suspension-upgrade-for-a-vitz-and-howwhere-to-get-it-done/
http://autolanka.com/forums/topic/21477-vitz-or-wagon-r-turbo/
http://autolanka.com/forums/topic/21509-buying-a-new-vitz/
http://autolanka.com/forums/topic/21088-vitz-safety-editions/

If you want a left field option, I would suggest taking a look at a registered Mazda 2 sedan or hatch. It will be MUCH better on the winding roads than any of the cars you've mentioned above, has decent ground clearance, and you should be able to pick one up within your budget. Have had one for 4 years now and it is really a very good car.

[matroska]

9 hours ago, everyf4 said:

My budget is around 3.5 - 4.5 Million but I am looking for practicality (A to B, dicky space, less body roll, basic options,  compact vehicle)

any particular reason for a compact vehicle (i.e limited parking space or frequent travel on narrow roads etc)  ? 

Most of your choices will have a certain amount of body-roll (not as much as the every) 

The boon/passo is the same as the Vitz engine wise but for some reason the new passo feels a little bit more refined than the vitz actually (maybe it's just me - i feel as if the Passo vibrates less than the vitz) overall if practicality is your thing you get more value for money with the Boon/Passo  ...the RS Vitz is super rare. 

A non-hybrid Honda Fit (GE6) would fulfil your boot-space requirement ...body roll isn't too bad. but noticeable unfortunately .Ground clearance is not stellar but OK. 

Edited May 21, 2020 by matroska

[GK_007]

10 hours ago, everyf4 said:

My budget is around 3.5 - 4.5 Million but I am looking for practicality (A to B, dicky space, less body roll, basic options,  compact vehicle)

Well I doubt you can tick all of them in whatever the car you are after, I guess best is to drive few and get a feel. And the way you feel the body roll is also subjective I suppose. 

Since you have mentioned the boot space, ever considered wagons like Toyota Fielder ? I haven't got any experience on the vehicle, but in terms of practicality these things are unmatched. Personally would love to own one. May be someone who knows the car can enlighten us on the body roll and other aspects ? Doubt they are very far off from the sedan counterpart. 

[everyf4]

9 hours ago, matroska said:

any particular reason for a compact vehicle (i.e limited parking space or frequent travel on narrow roads etc)  ? 

@matrosk  frequent travel on narrow roads + pot holes  

 

@Supra_Natural Drove a 2007 mazda 3 I love them mazdas, even though its a great car unfortunately I am sticking with the mainstream crappy models for resell value safety & spare parts even for every I faced a oil burning trouble and fixing it was a difficult issue had to go to garage and wait all day 
 

@iRage What model year vitz are you talking about ? cuz RS versions are only available for older models isnt it current one has a GRMN trim I like the Daihatsu Terios idea ! if its FWD I am okay with it every's and most RWD vans lack rear wheel traction ! 

BTW @GK_007 I agree on your point ! it is subjective, I should plan on renting couple of these cars and driving to nuwara eliya 
 

If I arrange my list my priority is 

1. Kandy Nuwara eliya travel 
2. Rear passenger comfort (wife and kid goes from right to left in every if I take a corner at 40 kmph, I have slow down to 20kmph for corners )
3. I might compromise on ground clearance but not on the compact 
Swift, Passo, Tank & Terios 
BTW for me 40kmph cornor is more than enough Im not a street racer ! 

I guess the issue is moving from Every I might feel all of the above cars has less body roll I am trying to pick yalls brains to get to better decision ! 

Does UK model swift has enough ground clearance ? without the body kit ?

[matroska]

48 minutes ago, everyf4 said:

I guess the issue is moving from Every I might feel all of the above cars has less body roll I am trying to pick yalls brains to get to better decision ! 

Does UK model swift has enough ground clearance ? without the body kit ?

Ok - it seems the best way forward for you is to test drive all the above and feel what suits you (this usually works) and if you still have doubts the best option might actually be a vitz since

(a) It will not body-roll as much as your every

(b) If you really feel after a while that the car does not suit you it will be the easiest to get rid of (usually) 

 

 

[everyf4]

9 minutes ago, matroska said:

Ok - it seems the best way forward for you is to test drive all the above and feel what suits you (this usually works) and if you still have doubts the best option might actually be a vitz since

(a) It will not body-roll as much as your every

(b) If you really feel after a while that the car does not suit you it will be the easiest to get rid of (usually) 

Yeap that sounds good I will testdrive and may be go for a vitz 1.0

I thought vitz only came 1.0 and 1.6 GRMN they do have vitz 1.3 isnt it ! 
https://www.tc-v.com/used_car/toyota/vitz/?fid=2017&sds=1300

Any guess on how much it would cost to bring down a 1.3 

UPDATE - LOL obviously not now only when SL opens up imports or I saw some 2015 1.3 on i*man ! may be go for a used one ! 

Edited May 22, 2020 by everyf4

[matroska]

2 minutes ago, everyf4 said:

Any guess on how much it would cost to bring down a 1.3 

well based on the engine size based-tax the tax would amount to 1300 * 2750 = 3,575,000 add the CIF value of the car to that you'll end up somewhere above 5 Million easily 

 

1 hour ago, everyf4 said:

I like the Daihatsu Terios idea

Also i just saw this - As far as i know The Terios is 4wd 

[iRage]

3 hours ago, everyf4 said:

@matrosk  frequent travel on narrow roads + pot holes  

 

@Supra_Natural Drove a 2007 mazda 3 I love them mazdas, even though its a great car unfortunately I am sticking with the mainstream crappy models for resell value safety & spare parts even for every I faced a oil burning trouble and fixing it was a difficult issue had to go to garage and wait all day 
 

@iRage What model year vitz are you talking about ? cuz RS versions are only available for older models isnt it current one has a GRMN trim I like the Daihatsu Terios idea ! if its FWD I am okay with it every's and most RWD vans lack rear wheel traction ! 

BTW @GK_007 I agree on your point ! it is subjective, I should plan on renting couple of these cars and driving to nuwara eliya 
 

If I arrange my list my priority is 

1. Kandy Nuwara eliya travel 
2. Rear passenger comfort (wife and kid goes from right to left in every if I take a corner at 40 kmph, I have slow down to 20kmph for corners )
3. I might compromise on ground clearance but not on the compact 
Swift, Passo, Tank & Terios 
BTW for me 40kmph cornor is more than enough Im not a street racer ! 

I guess the issue is moving from Every I might feel all of the above cars has less body roll I am trying to pick yalls brains to get to better decision ! 

Does UK model swift has enough ground clearance ? without the body kit ?

For your price all you can manage to get is an old RS....

For the record..Vitz GRMN was a limited edition high performance model. They made only 250 of those in total...below that you get the GR Sport GR....same engine but some decent chassis and suspension tune up. Then the lowest is GR Sport...just some minor tune up and mostly cosmetic. Again...the GR Sport and GR Sport GR are 1.5L variants....an unregistered one is out of your budget range. There are only 2 or 3 GR Sports in the country and those are not changing hands and even if they did..they are out of your budget.

You will have to go for a 1st or 2nd gen RS...or an early model 3rd gen RS.

[everyf4]

I did not know that ! GR and GRMN are two different vehicles ! No interest in them I was just bumping ideas  

Ive stopped looking for the new vitz, my idea is not pre face lift 2016 vitz I will try to find a 1.3 if I cant get it I am settling down for a 1.0 

This one 

Edited May 22, 2020 by everyf4

[Devinda_Z]

What GR models do we have here @iRage 

I saw a new Mark X with G's badges galore - caliper (covers??) rims, quad exhausts (tips??)

[iRage]

GR line has three levels....

GRMN = highly tuned with high power engines and limited production numbers.

Then there used to be G's...there are plenty of G's Aquas and Prius in Sri Lanka

G's was replaced it with GR decent mid level tuning....for the Vitz its called GR Sport GR. Then GR Sport which is the replacement for the RS. Entry level tuning.

The Vitz never came with a 1.6L engine. The GRMN first came with a 1.8L then a 1.5L engine. The GR come with a 1.5L gasoline engine and GR Sport in 1.5L Hybrid or Petrol engine.

All these are going to be above 5mil so you will have to go for a used one..unless you have a permit.

Some notes...the 2nd gen onward 1.3L S are just a trim..there is nothing sporty. So if you want a nice handling Viz..you need to go for the 1.5L RS. In addition you get a few 1st and 2nd gen TRD Turbos in SL.

The Rush is he same as the Terios...there seem to be more 2WD Rush than AWD Rush.

As for the Gazoo carsin SL

There quite a few Aquas and Priuses (G's)

There are 2 or 3 GR Sport Vitz (of the two I know..one is a Hybrid the other a gasoline).

Mark X GR Sport..I have only seen one Maroon one.

 

[Magnum]

Most passenger vehicles will have a fair bit of body roll, you can eliminate body roll with few mods. One of the easiest way is to get sway bars, Ultra Racing maybe able to help you with this. You could also reduce body roll by lowering the suspension or by going for stiffer springs

The downside of these upgrades would be that you would notice a drop in comfort.

[everyf4]

9 minutes ago, Magnum said:

Most passenger vehicles will have a fair bit of body roll, you can eliminate body roll with few mods. One of the easiest way is to get sway bars, Ultra Racing maybe able to help you with this. You could also reduce body roll by lowering the suspension or by going for stiffer springs

The downside of these upgrades would be that you would notice a drop in comfort.

Thank you for the reply Ultra racing are they based in Malaysia ?

I just wanna corner at 40-50 kmph not planning on attacking apexes and racing lines

My question is even in 40kmph is there lot of body roll ?

[iRage]

However...to be honest...after getting used to the Every and the body roll it has...almost every other car will feel like it is just nice and flat around the corners  

[Devinda_Z]

On 5/22/2020 at 10:53 AM, iRage said:

 

Mark X GR Sport..I have only seen one Maroon one.

 

Yup that's the one! They've riced it with some "RS" stickets/badges placed above the "G's" ones ?‍♂️

[Devinda_Z]

On 5/22/2020 at 2:53 PM, everyf4 said:

Thank you for the reply Ultra racing are they based in Malaysia ?

I just wanna corner at 40-50 kmph not planning on attacking apexes and racing lines

My question is even in 40kmph is there lot of body roll ?

Yes, correct - Ultra Racing are or Malaysian origin

[Devinda_Z]

On 5/22/2020 at 2:42 PM, Magnum said:

Most passenger vehicles will have a fair bit of body roll, you can eliminate body roll with few mods. One of the easiest way is to get sway bars, Ultra Racing maybe able to help you with this. You could also reduce body roll by lowering the suspension or by going for stiffer springs

The downside of these upgrades would be that you would notice a drop in comfort.

Slightly OT but regarding those UltraRacing chassis reinforcement bars - wouldn't the extra rigidity whilst helping with stiffening things up also affect the dynamics of how crumple zones come in to play in modern cars?

Would it dissipate force in a crash to areas of the car (or occupant!) unintended and undermine manufacturer designed passive safety measures? ?

[Kavvz]

5 hours ago, Devinda_Z said:

Slightly OT but regarding those UltraRacing chassis reinforcement bars - wouldn't the extra rigidity whilst helping with stiffening things up also affect the dynamics of how crumple zones come in to play in modern cars?

Would it dissipate force in a crash to areas of the car (or occupant!) unintended and undermine manufacturer designed passive safety measures? ?

Its always possible I suppose; but as swaybars etc are installed on the suspension in areas outside or below the typical crumple zone: I believe the risk is low.

(What's riskier are 'makka-bass' like weird logic modifications like putting seat covers on cars equipped with seat-side airbags or disconnecting the front airbag sensor as: "Sir, Even a small knock from a 3-wheeler will cause the dashboard to explode so for local use it has been disconnected / removed." )

Edited May 24, 2020 by Kavvz

[Kavvz]

On 5/21/2020 at 9:24 PM, everyf4 said:

 

1. Kandy Nuwara eliya travel 
2. Rear passenger comfort (wife and kid goes from right to left in every if I take a corner at 40 kmph, I have slow down to 20kmph for corners )

 

On 5/22/2020 at 5:23 AM, everyf4 said:

 

I just wanna corner at 40-50 

 For Kandy- NE, Gampola, Nawala-Pitiya roads: I wouldn't do anything that firms up your suspension. In fact I would do the opposite and stick with a nice soft ride and if possible as recommended further below; purchase a vehicle with even more suspension travel, and a wider wheel base.

You can try just upgrading the anti-sway bars, but even then, I wouldn't really bother for: You are primarily driving on poorly surfaced roads with lots of blind corners and a typical speed limit of 60kmph or so right? But in actuality you'll be lucky to average 40 given the conditions so really, I feel you are focusing on the wrong thing...

I agree that the AWD van you drive now is a decent fit. I would stick to that rather than any of the cars you've picked out to be honest.

If you really want to upgrade: My pick based on what you've stated would be an older CUV, (like the Toyota Harrier) to capitalize on the soft ride, wider wheel base and better visibility. 

Edited May 24, 2020 by Kavvz

[K.o.N.o.S]

On 5/22/2020 at 6:54 AM, everyf4 said:

If I arrange my list my priority is 

1. Kandy Nuwara eliya travel 
2. Rear passenger comfort (wife and kid goes from right to left in every if I take a corner at 40 kmph, I have slow down to 20kmph for corners )

If body roll is your concern the best yet expensive solution would be to upgrade to Coilovers/Adjustable suspension. As a resident in gampola I have driven countless times on nuwaraeliya road. With my car Sitting with coilovers I am feeling almost zero body roll.

[iRage]

2 hours ago, Kavvz said:

I agree that the AWD van you drive now is a decent fit. I would stick to that rather than any of the cars you've picked out to be honest.

 

The only thing the the Every van has over the others is a known history of maintenance. I have not driven an AWD variant but the standard variants are..well quite scary to be honest...the body roll is excessive and at tight corners dong anything more than 30 or 40 you would be lucky not to have the body roll put you in to a weird under steer or an excessive over steer to roll you over 

 

7 hours ago, Devinda_Z said:

Slightly OT but regarding those UltraRacing chassis reinforcement bars - wouldn't the extra rigidity whilst helping with stiffening things up also affect the dynamics of how crumple zones come in to play in modern cars?

Would it dissipate force in a crash to areas of the car (or occupant!) unintended and undermine manufacturer designed passive safety measures? ?

Good question...but don't car manufacturers account for this when they do their design ? If you take most cars they either come with the sway bars or have a variant that will come with one or have manufacturer's own after market parts for the cars. So I am guessing that as long as the sway bar is of type that is recommended by the manufacturer it should be okay ?  

But they..yes...there are certain mods you can do that probably will hamper the "ROAD" safety of a car. There are bars you can buy to put across the floor board of the car or the roof...but those are recommended only for racing use only...same with bracing plates.

I wonder what would happen if one goes about putting  extra welds on the frame...

Edited May 24, 2020 by iRage

[ShintaroX]

Why not ask your wife to wear a seat belt and get your kid a child seat? Then they won’t slide around, you can keep the car you like and you will be a responsible motorist. 

[everyf4]

14 hours ago, Kavvz said:

 

 For Kandy- NE, Gampola, Nawala-Pitiya roads: I wouldn't do anything that firms up your suspension. In fact I would do the opposite and stick with a nice soft ride and if possible as recommended further below; purchase a vehicle with even more suspension travel, and a wider wheel base.

You can try just upgrading the anti-sway bars, but even then, I wouldn't really bother for: You are primarily driving on poorly surfaced roads with lots of blind corners and a typical speed limit of 60kmph or so right? But in actuality you'll be lucky to average 40 given the conditions so really, I feel you are focusing on the wrong thing...

I agree that the AWD van you drive now is a decent fit. I would stick to that rather than any of the cars you've picked out to be honest.

If you really want to upgrade: My pick based on what you've stated would be an older CUV, (like the Toyota Harrier) to capitalize on the soft ride, wider wheel base and better visibility. 

Harriers are expensive, I don't think they fit my budget ! even a 2006-2007 model ! 
The issue is even 30kmph coroners are unbearable let alone 40 ! 

But I agree its a decent vehicle for driving around kandy ! but for winding roads I am not sure ! 
 

13 hours ago, K.o.N.o.S said:

If body roll is your concern the best yet expensive solution would be to upgrade to Coilovers/Adjustable suspension. As a resident in gampola I have driven countless times on nuwaraeliya road. With my car Sitting with coilovers I am feeling almost zero body roll.

What car do you own ?

@iRage Again I like the idea of Terios/Rush ! Im going to search the forums for old posts 

Edited May 24, 2020 by everyf4

[indrajee]

3 hours ago, everyf4 said:

Harriers are expensive, I don't think they fit my budget ! even a 2006-2007 model ! 
The issue is even 30kmph coroners are unbearable let alone 40 ! 

But I agree its a decent vehicle for driving around kandy ! but for winding roads I am not sure ! 
 

What car do you own ?

@iRage Again I like the idea of Terios/Rush ! Im going to search the forums for old posts 

Terios is not bad. Had a 2007 one which we got for the permit and ran it for 138000kms or so. Just had to do routine maintenance and mechanically it is not that complex. Will give you around 9ish in terms of fuel and the full time 4wd keeps the thing planted on the road and it gives you decent grip.  There is a bit of body roll but its not that severe. It has decent ground clearance as well.  I took the thing to Weviathalawa (managed to go most of the way) and Devils staircase (which I gave up halfway cause it was getting a bit out of hand). Doesn't have a lot of torque so cannot do anything extreme. Does have a centre diff lock and it does give some added power if you are stuck. But again nothing extreme. 

For parts, you might have to depend on the agent. I got most of the replacement parts through the agent. TL also carries certain parts.  Mine was a manual so had to replace the clutch and the pressure plate twice along with the front brake pads. Other than that, I had to replace the AC compressor and put a new cooler and had to replace the Fan motor once. But other than that I had to do nothing and it was solid. 

Sold it and got an axio hybrid and I'm still kicking myself for doing so. Weird enough I still find the terios to be comfortable and it gave me peace of mind and it always managed to put a smile on my face for some reason or the other.